Counter-pressing issue

[mouli]

Hello people! Why do my CBs counter-press and how do I stop them from doing so? This happens so often that the first instruction I select while making a tactic is close down less PI on my CBs. But it still happens. I asked this question a couple of days ago on the quick fire thread. But this time I have recorded a video. Any help would be appreciated!

Edit: I'm Newcastle btw playing a pre-season friendly against Dortmund.

 

Edited September 1, 2020 by mouli

[mouli]

Another video -

[dekzeh]

CBs don't take part in counter-pressing so I don't think that's the issue. I noticed in both cases it's your LCB who goes way out of his position to pressure the guy on the opposite flank, if it happens often my guess it could be due to his stats (high aggression? low decisions?). If that's not it, I'm not sure what could be causing it.

[mouli]

4 minutes ago, dekzeh said:

CBs don't take part in counter-pressing so I don't think that's the issue. I noticed in both cases it's your LCB who goes way out of his position to pressure the guy on the opposite flank, if it happens often my guess it could be due to his stats (high aggression? low decisions?). If that's not it, I'm not sure what could be causing it.

Yeah I was told the same thing in the quick fire thread but no the LCB has 11 aggression and around 13-14 decisions so that shouldn't be the case.

[crusadertsar]

What are his player traits?

[mouli]

41 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

What are his player traits?

None.

 

LCB FERNANDEZ

 

RCB LASCELLES

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, mouli said:

Hello people! Why do my CBs counter-press and how do I stop them from doing so? This happens so often that the first instruction I select while making a tactic is close down less PI on my CBs. But it still happens. I asked this question a couple of days ago on the quick fire thread. But this time I have recorded a video. Any help would be appreciated!

Edit: I'm Newcastle btw playing a pre-season friendly against Dortmund.

 

 

1 hour ago, mouli said:

Another video -

 

What your CBs are doing in these videos is not counter-pressing. They behave exactly in accordance with your tactic and situation developing on the pitch. The reason why they press (not counter-press) more aggressively than you believe they "should" is the lack of defensive solidity and compactness of your tactical setup, so they simply have to move out of their position more aggressively than it would be optimal in order to cover that big gap between themselves and the midfield.

Which btw also means that your tactic is probably too ambitious (aggressive) for the actual strength and quality of your team. And given that I managed this exact Newcastle team in FM19, I can definitely confirm that. 

[mouli]

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

What your CBs are doing in these videos is not counter-pressing. They behave exactly in accordance with your tactic and situation developing on the pitch. The reason why they press (not counter-press) more aggressively than you believe they "should" is the lack of defensive solidity and compactness of your tactical setup, so they simply have to move out of their position more aggressively than it would be optimal in order to cover that big gap between themselves and the midfield.

Which btw also means that your tactic is probably too ambitious (aggressive) for the actual strength and quality of your team. And given that I managed this exact Newcastle team in FM19, I can definitely confirm that. 

But if you see its a 2v1 situation so it makes sense that 1 player goes to press on the flank and the other one stays in the central area considering they are the LAST line of defence. I don't see how that's a matter of quality instead of common sense.

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, mouli said:

But if you see its a 2v1 situation so it makes sense that 1 player goes to press on the flank and the other one stays in the central area considering they are the LAST line of defence. I don't see how that's a matter of quality instead of common sense

It's a matter of the tactic in question, in the first place. 

[mouli]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

It's a matter of the tactic in question, in the first place. 

Alright, what changes would you suggest? 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, mouli said:

Alright, what changes would you suggest? 

Regarding your tactic as a whole on only defense-wise? 

[dekzeh]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The reason why they press (not counter-press) more aggressively than you believe they "should" is the lack of defensive solidity and compactness of your tactical setup, so they simply have to move out of their position more aggressively than it would be optimal in order to cover that big gap between themselves and the midfield.

This is really weird to me. The behavior of the LCB in those videos is absolutely nonsensical in terms of real life football. It's a mistake that can happen once or twice, but as often as OP suggests it's worrysome and doesn't look tactical, even if it is. I have used many times tactics that rely on two players being enough to provide defensive cover on counter attacks and never saw anything remotely similar, although my setups are wildly different from what OP has here, and I agree with the issues you have pointed out, especially with the midfield compactness.

This all makes me think that it's just the game showing you there's something wrong in a very non intuitive way. Am I right in thinking that if OP had better compactness in midfield but still at one point got caught in a counter attack situation with only the two CBs back, they wouldn't behave like this?

Like I said, the reason this strikes me as being so weird is that I have been counter attacked multiple times with only two players back, at all sorts of different levels, from world class teams to non-league levels, conceded some, defended others, doesn't matter, but never have I seen such stupid movement by a CB in a situation like this.

[mouli]

7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Regarding your tactic as a whole on only defense-wise? 

I prefer advice on solidifying my defence but if you think there's something else wrong then please point it out. I'm try to play possession football. 

[mouli]

5 hours ago, dekzeh said:

This is really weird to me. The behavior of the LCB in those videos is absolutely nonsensical in terms of real life football. It's a mistake that can happen once or twice, but as often as OP suggests it's worrysome and doesn't look tactical, even if it is. I have used many times tactics that rely on two players being enough to provide defensive cover on counter attacks and never saw anything remotely similar, although my setups are wildly different from what OP has here, and I agree with the issues you have pointed out, especially with the midfield compactness.

This all makes me think that it's just the game showing you there's something wrong in a very non intuitive way. Am I right in thinking that if OP had better compactness in midfield but still at one point got caught in a counter attack situation with only the two CBs back, they wouldn't behave like this?

Like I said, the reason this strikes me as being so weird is that I have been counter attacked multiple times with only two players back, at all sorts of different levels, from world class teams to non-league levels, conceded some, defended others, doesn't matter, but never have I seen such stupid movement by a CB in a situation like this.

Thank you! Glad you understand my frustration. What do you mean by midfield compactness? I've only heard of vertical and horizontal compactness. 

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, mouli said:

I prefer advice on solidifying my defence

From my knowledge and experience of that Newcastle team, here are tweaks I would make first in relation to improving defensive solidity:

- remove the counter-press

- drop the LOE to standard, whereas D-line can be switched between standard and higher (depending on the situation)

- switch the MCR into a holding (DLP) or covering role (CAR; BWMsu) to cover for the attacking FB

- Diame is defensively a considerably more reliable player than Shelvey, so he would be the more logical choice for the MCR position (Shelvey on the other hand would be a good choice for a playmaker)

- change Clark into a HB, both because you use attack-minded fullback roles and because that DM role ideally suits him as a natural CB

- remove the Play out of defence and tell the keeper to distribute to CBs and FBs instead (your players are simply not good enough to play out of defence)

- The left flank also needs a bit better balance of roles/duties

Now, keeping all this in mind and taking your players into account, this is what "my" setup of roles and duties would probably look like:

F9

IFat                                      IFsu

APsu    CAR/BWMsu

HB

WBauto   CDde  CDde   FBat

SKde

I assume that you play FM19, given that Ayoze and Diame are no longer at the club in FM20. Otherwise, the AMR (Ritchie) would be IW on support. 

11 hours ago, mouli said:

I'm try to play possession football

Honestly, I fear that your team is not good enough to play real possession football. But you can play some sort of possession-oriented hybrid style, which is exactly what my Newcastle tactic was like back then (except against top teams).

[mouli]

29 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

From my knowledge and experience of that Newcastle team, here are tweaks I would make first in relation to improving defensive solidity:

- remove the counter-press

- drop the LOE to standard, whereas D-line can be switched between standard and higher (depending on the situation)

- switch the MCR into a holding (DLP) or covering role (CAR; BWMsu) to cover for the attacking FB

- Diame is defensively a considerably more reliable player than Shelvey, so he would be the more logical choice for the MCR position (Shelvey on the other hand would be a good choice for a playmaker)

- change Clark into a HB, both because you use attack-minded fullback roles and because that DM role ideally suits him as a natural CB

- remove the Play out of defence and tell the keeper to distribute to CBs and FBs instead (your players are simply not good enough to play out of defence)

- The left flank also needs a bit better balance of roles/duties

Now, keeping all this in mind and taking your players into account, this is what "my" setup of roles and duties would probably look like:

F9

IFat                                      IFsu

APsu    CAR/BWMsu

HB

WBauto   CDde  CDde   FBat

SKde

I assume that you play FM19, given that Ayoze and Diame are no longer at the club in FM20. Otherwise, the AMR (Ritchie) would be IW on support. 

Honestly, I fear that your team is not good enough to play real possession football. But you can play some sort of possession-oriented hybrid style, which is exactly what my Newcastle tactic was like back then (except against top teams).

If I lower the LoE, then that CBs pressing issue won't happen right? 

And I thought Clark on DM(d) was already providing cover for the fullbacks. 

When I use CAR in MCR, he goes forward into the box for crosses or in counter attack situations, and in the rare case he doesn't, he counter-presses which is exact opposite of a COVER role. So instead I use a CM with Hold Position PI. 

And you say that you would remove counter-press but even for semi possession systems it makes sense to leave it ticked right? 

[dekzeh]

14 hours ago, mouli said:

Thank you! Glad you understand my frustration. What do you mean by midfield compactness? I've only heard of vertical and horizontal compactness. 

I'm not sure midfield compactness is a term, I just meant to how further apart everyone is, especially in that left side, there's a lot of vulnerable space. This is kinda shown in both videos you posted where your LCB is completely alone to defend that area, the fact he then decides to go elsewhere and not even try to defend the space is not something I can explain however.

I don't know your players at all, but the first things I would change for being more defensively solid would be lowering the LoE to standard. In addition to that I'd get a much less aggressive left flank, something like FB-Su, W-Su, CM-At, OR WB-Su, IF-At, CAR/BWM-Su. But again, I'm not sure what your players are suited to.

[mouli]

31 minutes ago, dekzeh said:

I'm not sure midfield compactness is a term, I just meant to how further apart everyone is, especially in that left side, there's a lot of vulnerable space. This is kinda shown in both videos you posted where your LCB is completely alone to defend that area, the fact he then decides to go elsewhere and not even try to defend the space is not something I can explain however.

I don't know your players at all, but the first things I would change for being more defensively solid would be lowering the LoE to standard. In addition to that I'd get a much less aggressive left flank, something like FB-Su, W-Su, CM-At, OR WB-Su, IF-At, CAR/BWM-Su. But again, I'm not sure what your players are suited to.

Well, I applied yours and @Experienced Defender suggestion and lowered the LoE and it worked! I did not encounter that issue for the whole match, which doesn't happen very often. But it's still hard for my mind to understand how was this related to the CB making ridiculous movement. Anyways, thanks for your input! 

[mouli]

Nope I was wrong. I tried the same thing in another save but it happened again! Please help me its getting very irritating. My whole evening got ruined.

Everything was the same as the Newcastle tactic only this time, I lowered the LoE to standard as I said and changed DM(d) to DLP(d). 

I am West Ham playing against Arsenal.

[Experienced Defender]

21 hours ago, mouli said:

If I lower the LoE, then that CBs pressing issue won't happen right?

Lowering the LOE should considerably reduce the likelihood of that happening, but not sure if that tweak alone would be enough to entirely eliminate such behavior by your CBs. Because counter-press can also contribute to that. 

 

21 hours ago, mouli said:

When I use CAR in MCR, he goes forward into the box for crosses or in counter attack situations, and in the rare case he doesn't

I personally played Diame (and occasionally Heyden) as a carrilero in MCR with an IF on support in front of him and FB on attack behind him, and he was doing a really good job - exactly what the carrilero is supposed to do. I also played on the Balanced team mentality, but with standard DL and LOE and no counter-press. 

In counter-attacking situations though, a carrilero will normally join the counter-attack just like most other players, so it's normal. 

21 hours ago, mouli said:

he counter-presses which is exact opposite of a COVER role

Of course he will counter-press if you use the counter-pressing team instruction. Only defenders are exempt from counter-press. 

 

21 hours ago, mouli said:

And you say that you would remove counter-press but even for semi possession systems it makes sense to leave it ticked right?

If you think your players are good enough to execute the counter-pressing without incurring excessive defensive risks, then okay 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, mouli said:

I am West Ham playing against Arsenal

 

1 hour ago, mouli said:

Everything was the same as the Newcastle tactic only this time, I lowered the LoE to standard as I said

But you did not remove the counter-press, right? 

 

1 hour ago, mouli said:

and changed DM(d) to DLP(d)

DLP is not more defensive-minded than DM, so I don't see the point. In fact, DM is more defensively responsible than DLP. Although against a top team like Arsenal, ancorman would probably be an even better choice. However, playing against a top team as West Ham or Newcastle would probably require a bit more tweaking than just the LOE and DM role. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, mouli said:

Btw, this video is a perfect example of how a top team can easily punish an underdog playing aggressively against a much better side. Think about that. 

[mouli]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Btw, this video is a perfect example of how a top team can easily punish an underdog playing aggressively against a much better side. Think about that. 

Please clarify. Is something wrong with my tactic or with my team.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, mouli said:

Please clarify. Is something wrong with my tactic or with my team.

Okay, but you first have to post a screenshot of the tactic you used in that specific game against Arsenal, so that I could tell you exactly what the potential issues are. 

[mouli]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but you first have to post a screenshot of the tactic you used in that specific game against Arsenal, so that I could tell you exactly what the potential issues are. 

Sorry but I did not take a screenshot. Everything is same as the Newcastle one except LoE is standard. And the DM(d) is DLP(d) now. 

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, mouli said:

Sorry but I did not take a screenshot. Everything is same as the Newcastle one except LoE is standard. And the DM(d) is DLP(d) now. 

So this was your tactic against Arsenal: 

F9

IFsu                                     APsu

CMat    CMsu

DLPde

WBsu    BPDde  CDde   FBat

SKsu

Balanced - shorter passing & play out of defence - counter-press - higher DL & standard LOE.

Correct?

[mouli]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

So this was your tactic against Arsenal: 

F9

IFsu                                     APsu

CMat    CMsu

DLPde

WBsu    BPDde  CDde   FBat

SKsu

Balanced - shorter passing & play out of defence - counter-press - higher DL & standard LOE.

Correct?

Correct

[Experienced Defender]

55 minutes ago, mouli said:

Correct

Would you like to know how I would adjust that tactic when facing a top team like Arsenal (and why)?

(Although I would change that tactic anyway, regardless of the opposition). 

[mouli]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Would you like to know how I would adjust that tactic when facing a top team like Arsenal (and why)?

(Although I would change that tactic anyway, regardless of the opposition). 

No I want to ask WHY do my CBs move non-sensically out of position and how to prevent it regardless of the opposition. It's not like this problem only happens when I face top teams. It always happens. 

[dannyxx20]

3 hours ago, mouli said:

No I want to ask WHY do my CBs move non-sensically out of position and how to prevent it regardless of the opposition. It's not like this problem only happens when I face top teams. It always happens. 

Do you maybe have something weird going on with your ass man and opposition instructions? Like do you have him set to choose the opposition instructions?

Also might be worth checking if any tight marking player instructions might be set too.

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, mouli said:

No I want to ask WHY do my CBs move non-sensically out of position and how to prevent it regardless of the opposition. It's not like this problem only happens when I face top teams. It always happens. 

I already explained that in my first comment in this thread: 

 

On 01/09/2020 at 20:04, Experienced Defender said:

What your CBs are doing in these videos is not counter-pressing. They behave exactly in accordance with your tactic and situation developing on the pitch. The reason why they press (not counter-press) more aggressively than you believe they "should" is the lack of defensive solidity and compactness of your tactical setup, so they simply have to move out of their position more aggressively than it would be optimal in order to cover that big gap between themselves and the midfield.

Which btw also means that your tactic is probably too ambitious (aggressive) for the actual strength and quality of your team. And given that I managed this exact Newcastle team in FM19, I can definitely confirm that

But of course, you are free to disagree with me if it helps you feel better. Maybe it's really a bug, I don't know 

[Guest]

It obviously isn't a bug because these issues aren't affecting everyone. ED has already given great advice on solidifying your tactic apart from that was that game against Arsenal pre-season? I notice you mentioned pre-season in your Newcastle game and if it's your first season there could well be issues with gelling, tactical familiarity and of course depending on your rep whether they take notice of you. In my first season in the first few games my defenders have frequent brain farts till the familiarity kicks in and they are now at start of season two like a well oiled machine. Also don't underestimate the use of the Defensive Shape match preparation training prior to games.

I notice you play on an older version of FM so I can't comment on the West Ham player attributes but I would personally wan't an upgrade at some point soon on Lascelles despite his outstanding defensive technical abilities. For me Lascelles would be a backup option. Fernandez is still lacking in one mental attribute for me but his very average pace would see him not at my club(due to my very high line) but he can do a job at first and he is also definitely not a BPD for me at all.

[mouli]

2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

It obviously isn't a bug because these issues aren't affecting everyone. ED has already given great advice on solidifying your tactic apart from that was that game against Arsenal pre-season? I notice you mentioned pre-season in your Newcastle game and if it's your first season there could well be issues with gelling, tactical familiarity and of course depending on your rep whether they take notice of you. In my first season in the first few games my defenders have frequent brain farts till the familiarity kicks in and they are now at start of season two like a well oiled machine. Also don't underestimate the use of the Defensive Shape match preparation training prior to games.

I notice you play on an older version of FM so I can't comment on the West Ham player attributes but I would personally wan't an upgrade at some point soon on Lascelles despite his outstanding defensive technical abilities. For me Lascelles would be a backup option. Fernandez is still lacking in one mental attribute for me but his very average pace would see him not at my club(due to my very high line) but he can do a job at first and he is also definitely not a BPD for me at all.

Well at least you acknowledge that something else might be wrong because people here have been constantly blaming this on my tactic and player quality.

And since you commented I should reply to you that it was a bug. I was frustrated because it clearly looked like counter pressing and for the next match i turned off the counter pressing TI. And it didn't happen, I played the same game West Ham vs Arsenal 3 times again and again and not once did it happen so obviously CBs were counter pressing and it was a bug.