Help me Obi Wan! My Leeds can no longer win!

[gianguido]

Hi, didn't notice if it happened after latest update, but it may be so. I was having fun with my Leeds career, working with a tactic I kind of copied from a thread here, because I'm bad with tactics, and tweaked it a little. Amazingly enough my first season in Premier ended at the 8th place, in the summer I went all in to buy Haaland as a substitute of Borja Mayoral (on loan), I bought Mazraoui instead of Ayling and Vallejo for free to take the spot of Corbo/Mai.. I accepted a 57 million offer for Shackleton but I think Bogusz is almost of the same level.. I was super excited to start the season and claim my spot in Euro League challenge, after all I really thought the squad improved in all roles..yet the squad totally sucks now! The screenshot is a little old but now I'm on the 1st of October and have yet to win a single game!! I got kicked in the nuts even in Carabao Cup, I tried to change tactic, tweak this one, play with the away version, but nothing, the attack never manages to create anything good and I don't know what to do, oddly enough the only times I was close to winning was against Man City and Chelsea, yet they manage to score some late equalizer.. Any suggestions?

 

And that's another experiment, but I don't think it really fits the players..

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by gianguido
changing images

[Irn Rvd]

If you post your tactic in English, the tactician gurus will be able to help you. I am not one of them unfortunately.

Without being able to read the tactic, you had great placement last season, and that comes with some negative effects. Teams will now treat you like a top 8 prem team when you may not have a squad with that ability. Especially when you have a board like leeds (im on my fifth season with leeds) that do not give you much funds for transfers. Teams also get used to your style of football and adjust accordingly, just like in real life.

I had the same issue when I got sixth in my first season, I could no longer play attacking direct football as it was all too easy for the opposition when they sit back as I was now the favourite for most games.

Again, without being able to read the tactic, it looks like you have too many team instructions.

[Irn Rvd]

BTW, your title of the post is hilarious.

 

Also, try develop Kenneth as much as possible as he becomes absolute amazing. Alfie McCalmot also becomes great and can be sold for a hefty fee once he makes mid 20s. 
Not sure about bogusz, he never really developed for me (which was my bad).

[gianguido]

59 minuti fa, Irn Rvd ha scritto:

If you post your tactic in English, the tactician gurus will be able to help you. I am not one of them unfortunately.

Without being able to read the tactic, you had great placement last season, and that comes with some negative effects. Teams will now treat you like a top 8 prem team when you may not have a squad with that ability. Especially when you have a board like leeds (im on my fifth season with leeds) that do not give you much funds for transfers. Teams also get used to your style of football and adjust accordingly, just like in real life.

I had the same issue when I got sixth in my first season, I could no longer play attacking direct football as it was all too easy for the opposition when they sit back as I was now the favourite for most games.

Again, without being able to read the tactic, it looks like you have too many team instructions.

Ouch, you're right, didn't even think about that, I'm gonna fix the screenshot right away!

 

McCalmont or whatever was sold in the second season for 20 mill, I'm developing Kenneh but he's still behind.. also I think the squad is pretty solid, I mean, Palacios and Haaland are already top players, Mazraoui, Trincao, Phillips are also pretty good, Pongracic, Butland ,Vallejo,Costa should be solid enough for a mid table position...  that's my idea at least, maybe you're right and it's just a matter of  having bad players  

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, gianguido said:

And that's another experiment, but I don't think it really fits the players..

Both tactics are a total mess, with plenty of needless instructions (tactical overkill) and not optimally balanced setup(s) of roles and duties.

I would like to help you with more specific advice, but you first need to tell me what style of football you want to play - patient possession, progressive possession, counter-attacking, or "fast and furious" (like LFC under Klopp), or maybe some hybrid of different styles? 

Of course, bear in mind the strength and reputation of your team relative to the league when deciding on the style of play.

[gianguido]

Well, thanks for the brutally honest feedback..

Ideally I would like to play something like sarriball, lots of short combinations(I made all of my offensive players learn "play one-two), but more realistically I'm looking to whatever fits the best with my current players, so to save my bench..

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, gianguido said:

Ideally I would like to play something like sarriball, lots of short combinations(I made all of my offensive players learn "play one-two), but more realistically I'm looking to whatever fits the best with my current players, so to save my bench

I guess it should basically be some hybrid style that combines defensive solidity with some flavor of nice passing football in attack. Probably your team is not good enough to play some Klopp-ish style, but I guess it's not so bad that it needs to be totally defensive either.

Am I right?

[gianguido]

Yep, something that could also bring the best out of my stars, palacios in the middle and haaland and trincão on front

[Experienced Defender]

19 minutes ago, gianguido said:

Yep, something that could also bring the best out of my stars, palacios in the middle and haaland and trincão on front

Could you post screenshots of these 3 guys player profiles?

[gianguido]

6 minuti fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

Could you post screenshots of these 3 guys player profiles?

Right on it, here they are:

Generally also let's say that the squad is really bad on headers, so keep in mind that, best attribute of the defenders, compared to the rest of the league, is Positioning, not sure if that means I can opt for using the offside trap.

Flair and vision are also two skills the squad excels in, according to the team report

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, gianguido said:

Right on it, here they are:

When it comes specifically to these 3 guys, I would probably set them up in the following manner:

Palacios - mezzala on attack duty in MCR

Trincao - IW on support duty in AMR (same as in your setup)

Haaland - PF on attack duty

So only 2 differences compared to your setup (the first one) - Palacios' duty and Haaland's role. 

However, for a tactic to work, you also need to set the rest of it sensibly, not just these 3 players (or any individual player for that matter).

So, let's start with the roles and duties only for now (before getting to instructions)...

If this is the setup of your 3 guys:

               PFat

                                IWsu

                  MEZat

How would you set up the rest in order to make it well-balanced overall, both in terms of attacking and defending? 

[gianguido]

Okay, I already applied some changes: changed some duties and removed some instructions. 

I think the squad fits to a 4-3-3 

Palacios as mezzala was unusual, I used to make him play as AP, you suggest on support or Attack duty? Also now he plays on the same side as Trincão, so my most tecnhical players can connect.. good idea or Will they step on each others toes with this configuration?  On the left there are the mez on Attack duty and the winger, also on Attack, too much? Also helder costa Is my only left winger, when others play there I have them as IF, because they have bad crossing skills. 

Phillips Is gonna be a defensive midfielders, he's playing as HB but bevere got Natural in the position, I might Advance him, Always with defensive duties, but I don't know.

On defense Tymon is on support duty, since on the left everyone in front of him are on Attack, on the right Mazraoui Who should be a Little more tecnhical Is on Attack duties.. the idea Is to develop the manouver on the right side, and then hopefully switch play and exploit the left flank.

 

This evening I'm gonna post the screenshots of all the players, so you can tell me if their abilities are good enough or can be out under better use.

Thanks

Edited February 12, 2020 by gianguido

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, gianguido said:

Palacios as mezzala was unusual, I used to make him play as AP, you suggest on support or Attack duty?

Depends on the rest of the setup and what you want in terms of playing style .He's a good player, so he can play a number of midfield roles. Which one would be optimal really depends on the factors I already mentioned. 

 

8 hours ago, gianguido said:

Also now he plays on the same side as Trincão, so my most tecnhical players can connect.. good idea or Will they step on each others toes with this configuration?  On the left there are the mez on Attack duty and the winger, also on Attack, too much? Also helder costa Is my only left winger, when others play there I have them as IF, because they have bad crossing skills

It would be far easier for me to analyze and tell you what I think if you either posted a screenshot of that particular tactic you are referring to, or sketch out the roles and duties manually within the post. 

 

8 hours ago, gianguido said:

This evening I'm gonna post the screenshots of all the players, so you can tell me if their abilities are good enough or can be out under better use

Good 

[gianguido]

New tactic:

 

The rest of the squad:

[Experienced Defender]

8 minutes ago, gianguido said:

Sorry, but this tactic is pretty much unbalanced and on top of that very risky defense-wise. 

I don't have the time at the moment to tell you more specifically what's wrong, but I'll come back later to analyze your players and give you more detailed advice. 

[gianguido]

Lol, the board asked me to play an offensive and entertaining football 

I'll wait for your analysis, thank you

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, gianguido said:

Lol, the board asked me to play an offensive and entertaining football

You can play such type of football in a (lot) more sensible manner. 

 

2 hours ago, gianguido said:

I'll wait for your analysis

Okay, here it is...

I always prefer to begin analysis with roles and duties. In your tactic, you have both CMs in very attack-minded roles, even if one of them (mezzala) is on support duty. If you were a top team with world-class players in every position, that might be a bit less of an issue. But you are not. And on top of that - you play an attacking fullback on the same side as the mezzala (btw, the same would apply if you played him alongside the AP either). The fact that you have a holding DM (HB) is not going to mitigate the defensive risk to a sufficient degree, because - again - neither your team overall is good enough to absorb that amount of risk nor is playing the DM in a holding role sufficient protection against any level of risk (because no single player is "almighty" and cannot cover every single gap that will occur in your defensive shape once you lose the ball and the opposition launch a counter-attack).

But even if your team as a whole were good enough to afford  to take such a great level of defensive risk, it still does not mean that you need to play that way in order to dominate matches and/or achieve the "attacking entertaining football" the board wants from you. Because plenty of attacking/exotic/adventurous roles and/or instructions is not what makes you potent and dangerous in attack. Instead, it's a well-balanced and wisely constructed tactic that strikes the right balance between attacking penetration on one hand and defensive stability on the other. 

And all this risk I've been talking about is further compounded by your very high mentality (attacking), due to the very fact that your team mentality has a direct impact on every single element of your tactic. 

I'll now carefully analyze your players and then (in my next post) tell you how I would set up my starting tactic with them, so that it would be both sensible and in conformity with your board's expectations.

[Experienced Defender]

Okay, so I've finished analyzing your players from the screenshots and here is what "my" basic (starting) tactic would be:

PFat

Wat                                  IWsu

MEZsu     DLPsu

DMde

FBsu    BPDde   CDde    FBat

SKde

As you can see, I've changed only two roles and one duty in total (apart from the keeper's duty). But that seemingly "small" change is actually big enough to stabilize the setup and provide "optimal" balance. 

In terms of player selection - which is equally important - this would be my preferred starting 11:

GK/SKde - Butland 

DL/FBsu - Tymon - sit narrower

DR/FBat - Mazraoui

DCL/BPDde - Pograncic

DCR/CDde - Vallejo

DM/DMde - Kenneh

MCL/MEZsu - Palacios

MCR/DLPsu - Phillips

AML/Wat - Costa

AMR/IWsu - Trincao - sit narrower, roam from position

STC/PFat - Haaland

Coming up next - Mentality and instructions...

[gianguido]

Thanks for the Deep analysis and the suggestions so far, hopefully I'll be able to  test It in the weekend

Edited February 14, 2020 by gianguido

[Experienced Defender]

On 13/02/2020 at 00:38, Experienced Defender said:

Coming up next - Mentality and instructions...

In terms of mentality, I would start with the Balanced and then occasionally switch to the Positive as I see fit.

In possession - would start with shorter passing only (and then I can gradually tweak if/when needed)

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - start with no instructions (i.e. everything on default)

When it comes to player instructions, the striker and mezzala would be told to close down more (soft version of split block). Other player instructions are already mentioned in my previous post.

[gianguido]

So, I started with the new tactic in November, but I can't say the results have improved a lot.. but the main problem is that now the number of chances created are very low, so the board had started complaining bout the lack of offensive football. The new tactic looks like it works against much better teams, when I change mentality to cautious and allowed me to save the results against Liverpool and Tottenham, and almost with Chelsea and ManCity, but in the other matches I was really struggling on the attack.

 

[Experienced Defender]

21 minutes ago, gianguido said:

So, I started with the new tactic in November, but I can't say the results have improved a lot.. but the main problem is that now the number of chances created are very low, so the board had started complaining bout the lack of offensive football. The new tactic looks like it works against much better teams, when I change mentality to cautious and allowed me to save the results against Liverpool and Tottenham, and almost with Chelsea and ManCity, but in the other matches I was really struggling on the attack.

 

Do you make tweaks - apart from the mentality change, which alone is usually not a smart change - or you keep playing with the same tactic all the time? 

And - most important - do you watch matches at least in comprehensive highlights?

[Bigshow1]

I Think it’s just the poor current state of the ME. I’ve given up for now in hope of another patch. The feedback thread in general discussion is full of people complaining about poor defending and general lack of any instructions doing what you want them to.

[sejo]

4 minuti fa, Bigshow1 ha scritto:

I Think it’s just the poor current state of the ME. I’ve given up for now in hope of another patch. The feedback thread in general discussion is full of people complaining about poor defending and general lack of any instructions doing what you want them to.

Unfortunately it seems so. My team just plays randomly, my att mid has always poor ratings (even changing world class players), my if/iws simply don't cut inside. I'm not complaining about not winning, I'm complaining that I just want to see my team doing the things I tell.

[Bigshow1]

21 minutes ago, sejo said:

Unfortunately it seems so. My team just plays randomly, my att mid has always poor ratings (even changing world class players), my if/iws simply don't cut inside. I'm not complaining about not winning, I'm complaining that I just want to see my team doing the things I tell.

Just been reading through a few of the career threads and some people are calling it a day until there’s a new patch. I’ll be going back to my journeyman save on FM19 where I managed to create a tactic that plays exactly as I want it to.

[Experienced Defender]

@Bigshow1 @sejo Guys, you have every right to believe it's the ME (as opposed to your tactics) that is responsible for your team underperforming and/or underachieving, so that's absolutely okay.

The only problem is that this particular section of the forum is not meant for that type of discussion and complaint. So please keep that in mind when posting your comments.

Thanks!

[Bigshow1]

Sorry dude

[sejo]

1 minuto fa, Bigshow1 ha scritto:

Sorry dude

Sorry!

[gianguido]

Il 16/2/2020 in 15:58 , Experienced Defender ha scritto:

Do you make tweaks - apart from the mentality change, which alone is usually not a smart change - or you keep playing with the same tactic all the time? 

And - most important - do you watch matches at least in comprehensive highlights?

I tried some tweaks of team width, pressing line and gave the instruction to "be more creative" since it looks we're doing ok on that stat.. sometimes it worked a little and sometimes it didn't work at all.. as I mentioned I'm not good with tactics, so even if I'm watching the extended Highlights I struggle to get any insight on the reasons of the poor attack

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, gianguido said:

I tried some tweaks of team width, pressing line and gave the instruction to "be more creative" since it looks we're doing ok on that stat.. sometimes it worked a little and sometimes it didn't work at all.. as I mentioned I'm not good with tactics, so even if I'm watching the extended Highlights I struggle to get any insight on the reasons of the poor attack

I have to admit that I deliberately proposed a bit more cautious tactic overall, because I wanted to avoid drawing you into potential defensive troubles. I am here primarily referring to instructions. The setup of roles and duties was not that much conservative. The first tweak I would try is just swapping the mezzala's and winger's respective duties:

Wsu

        MEZat

Try and report back if there is an improvement.