442 with AF

[Tcufrog]

[Tcufrog]

[Tcufrog]

[Tcufrog]

[Tcufrog]

[Tcufrog]

[Experienced Defender]

13 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

This guys look okay to me.

[Tcufrog]

I've played 4 matches since the "pass shorter" adjustment and i've won 1, lost 1, and drawn 2.  Lost 3-0 to a poor Bayern team just now.  Kimmich and Alaba killed me on the wings playing the ball into the box for easy goals which has been par for the course...

Any tips @Rashidi or @Experienced Defender?

[Experienced Defender]

12 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

Lost 3-0 to a poor Bayern team

Wait a minute... "poor Bayern team" ??? 

[Tcufrog]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Wait a minute... "poor Bayern team" ??? 

Haha they haven’t won or come close to winning the league since I started my save! 

[Experienced Defender]

2 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

Haha they haven’t won or come close to winning the league since I started my save! 

Okay, but it's still does not mean they are poor overall. or weaker than your team. 

But okay. Which of the 2 tactics did you use against them?

[Tcufrog]

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but it's still does not mean they are poor overall. or weaker than your team. 

But okay. Which of the 2 tactics did you use against them?

I used the counter tactic, they played an attacking 4231 and carved us apart

[Rashidi]

10 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I've played 4 matches since the "pass shorter" adjustment and i've won 1, lost 1, and drawn 2.  Lost 3-0 to a poor Bayern team just now.  Kimmich and Alaba killed me on the wings playing the ball into the box for easy goals which has been par for the course...

Any tips @Rashidi or @Experienced Defender?

Ultimately you still need to pick the right players for your system and you should always be paying attention to whether you are winning the 2nd ball in the game.

[Tcufrog]

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Ultimately you still need to pick the right players for your system and you should always be paying attention to whether you are winning the 2nd ball in the game.

Agreed, and the whole reason I picked this system is because it fit my players.  The latest screenshots of my tactic include my preferred top 11 and I've listed my entire roster. Would you mind giving it a look?

I believe I'm struggling at RB, LB, and RCM but would like to get some input.  Stossberger is a really good player but still not sure he fits this system... My RB and LB seem like decent players so I'm not sure why they're performing so poorly.

[Experienced Defender]

On 23/02/2020 at 23:50, Tcufrog said:

You have only 1 fullback that is good enough to regularly bomb forward and support your attacks, and that one is Brun. All others are pretty decent defense-wise, but have poor attributes for any attack-minded FB role.

So you need to pay more attention to player selection in terms of what players optimally suit particular roles. Do not assign roles to players randomly. 

When I analyze your players, it seems to me that you have focused too much on bringing good forwards and midfielders, while neglecting defenders. 

[Tcufrog]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

You have only 1 fullback that is good enough to regularly bomb forward and support your attacks, and that one is Brun. All others are pretty decent defense-wise, but have poor attributes for any attack-minded FB role.

So you need to pay more attention to player selection in terms of what players optimally suit particular roles. Do not assign roles to players randomly. 

When I analyze your players, it seems to me that you have focused too much on bringing good forwards and midfielders, while neglecting defenders. 

Thank you for the advice. I look for quality defenders as well but struggle finding players (especially LBs and RBs) that aren’t good values and that fit the roles I want them to play. This is a focus of mine as the season has just ended. I finished 11th in the league.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tcufrog said:

I finished 11th in the league

What was the media prediction and board expectation?

[Tcufrog]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

What was the media prediction and board expectation?

Media was 8th and board was competing for European competition. Past two years i finished 8th then 7th. This year finished 11th, knocked out of cup in 2nd round, and didn’t make it past first stage of whatever tiny European competition I was in.

[Experienced Defender]

33 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

Media was 8th and board was competing for European competition. Past two years i finished 8th then 7th. This year finished 11th, knocked out of cup in 2nd round, and didn’t make it past first stage of whatever tiny European competition I was in.

Well, the tactic then definitely needs rethinking, but this time with paying more attention to the type of your players. I noticed you now have defensive and central midfielders that look more defensively reliable than those you had before, so a 442 might again be a viable option. 

Here is an idea to think about:

F9/DLFsu/CFsu   AF/PFat

WMat      CAR/BBM     DLPsu/de       IWsu

FBsu/IWBde      CDde       CDde      WBsu

And a more counter-attacking version with both strikers on attack duty:

DLFat/CFat     AF/PFat

WMsu     BBM     DLPsu/de     IWsu

FBsu      CDde     CD/BPDde    WBsu

Of course, instructions would differ slightly in these 2 versions of the tactic. 

[Tcufrog]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, the tactic then definitely needs rethinking, but this time with paying more attention to the type of your players. I noticed you now have defensive and central midfielders that look more defensively reliable than those you had before, so a 442 might again be a viable option. 

Here is an idea to think about:

F9/DLFsu/CFsu   AF/PFat

WMat      CAR/BBM     DLPsu/de       IWsu

FBsu/IWBde      CDde       CDde      WBsu

And a more counter-attacking version with both strikers on attack duty:

DLFat/CFat     AF/PFat

WMsu     BBM     DLPsu/de     IWsu

FBsu      CDde     CD/BPDde    WBsu

Of course, instructions would differ slightly in these 2 versions of the tactic. 

Thank you for the ideas, check out my formations below along with my preferred starting XI and let me know your thoughts.  If you think certain players fit certain roles better than others, please let me know and I'll give it a try.

Only PIs I used are less risks for GK (because he made a few bad bad first touch mistakes this past year), and stay wider for the WB-S.

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

If you think certain players fit certain roles better than others, please let me know and I'll give it a try

- I would play Eckert as a DLF in both tactics, rather than changing his role without any apparent reason (only his duty would vary)

- Valencia - DLP

- Miangawa - carrilero

- Luduena - SK on defend duty 

Starting team instructions (1st tactic):

Balanced mentality

- nothing (potential tweaks - shorter passing, overlap right)

- distribute to CBs and FBs 

- nothing (potential occasional tweak - higher DL)

     * 

    *         *

Starting team instructions (2nd tactic):

Balanced mentality

- higher tempo (potential tweaks - early crosses, low crosses, pass into space)

- nothing (potential tweaks - counter, distribute quickly)

- lower LOE (potential tweak - get stuck in) 

10 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

Only PIs I used are less risks for GK (because he made a few bad bad first touch mistakes this past year), and stay wider for the WB-S

Neither is necessary IMHO. 

The only player instructions I would regularly use in both tactics are:

- LB/FBsu (Gil) - dribble less and sit narrower

- STCL/DLF (Eckert) - roam from position

- MCL/CAR - close down more

- STCR/AF - close down more

- MR/IWsu - sit narrower

NOTE: Watch your team's matches at least in Comprehensive highlights. Report back if you notice any issues, either in attack or defense.

[Tcufrog]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

- I would play Eckert as a DLF in both tactics, rather than changing his role without any apparent reason (only his duty would vary)

- Valencia - DLP

- Miangawa - carrilero

- Luduena - SK on defend duty 

Starting team instructions (1st tactic):

Balanced mentality

- nothing (potential tweaks - shorter passing, overlap right)

- distribute to CBs and FBs 

- nothing (potential occasional tweak - higher DL)

     * 

    *         *

Starting team instructions (2nd tactic):

Balanced mentality

- higher tempo (potential tweaks - early crosses, low crosses, pass into space)

- nothing (potential tweaks - counter, distribute quickly)

- lower LOE (potential tweak - get stuck in) 

Neither is necessary IMHO. 

The only player instructions I would regularly use in both tactics are:

- LB/FBsu (Gil) - dribble less and sit narrower

- STCL/DLF (Eckert) - roam from position

- MCL/CAR - close down more

- STCR/AF - close down more

- MR/IWsu - sit narrower

NOTE: Watch your team's matches at least in Comprehensive highlights. Report back if you notice any issues, either in attack or defense.

Thank you for your advice, I’ll definitely adjust. 
 

Curious as to why you recommend a carrillero as my LCM? Based on the description of the roles and the duties, it seems like that roles would clog up the middle of the pitch with a WM and DLP on either side. Can you help me understand your reasoning here? I usually opt for a BBM instead but am open to the idea.

[Experienced Defender]

2 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

Curious as to why you recommend a carrillero as my LCM?

For better stability in the midfield in the first place, especially in the first tactic where your LWM is on attack duty. Another reason is that both your CMs - Miangawa and Valencia - have fairly poor of the ball, so I fear they may struggle in a BBM role. In the 2nd tactic though, you can experiment with the BBM instead of carriero and see how it works. 

 

8 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

Based on the description of the roles and the duties, it seems like that roles would clog up the middle of the pitch with a WM and DLP on either side

I don't see why a combination of WM, carrilero and DLP would "clog up" the midfield. Especially when the WM is on attack duty, which makes the carrilero an even more logical choice.

 

6 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

I usually opt for a BBM instead but am open to the idea

As I said, I would prefer BBM in the 2nd tactic, but be wary of your CMs' insufficient off the ball ratings. 

[Tcufrog]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

For better stability in the midfield in the first place, especially in the first tactic where your LWM is on attack duty. Another reason is that both your CMs - Miangawa and Valencia - have fairly poor of the ball, so I fear they may struggle in a BBM role. In the 2nd tactic though, you can experiment with the BBM instead of carriero and see how it works. 

 

I don't see why a combination of WM, carrilero and DLP would "clog up" the midfield. Especially when the WM is on attack duty, which makes the carrilero an even more logical choice.

 

As I said, I would prefer BBM in the 2nd tactic, but be wary of your CMs' insufficient off the ball ratings. 

Will do, thanks for the tips!

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

Will do, thanks for the tips!

Okay, but please do not follow blindly every single piece of advice I (or anyone) give you. It's your team, so we cannot know all details that may be relevant. You are the one in charge 

[Tcufrog]

46 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but please do not follow blindly every single piece of advice I (or anyone) give you. It's your team, so we cannot know all details that may be relevant. You are the one in charge 

Got it, I’ll provide an update once I get into this new season

[Tcufrog]

@Experienced DefenderSo I'm currently fifth in the league, defensively I look great.  However, all of my goals are coming off of counters.  I'm really struggling to get any good attacking movement in the final third, expecially against defensive sides.  Any thoughts?  I've been watching games on comprehensive, and all that I can see is that my side seems to get stuck with the ball and ends up trying a cross to one of my forwards who is well marked.  It seems my IW-S and WM-A aren't effective in the final third, any ideas to try out?

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

@Experienced DefenderSo I'm currently fifth in the league, defensively I look great

Good. It means the tactic works. 

 

2 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

However, all of my goals are coming off of counters

That's exactly the sort of football I love the most  

 

2 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I'm really struggling to get any good attacking movement in the final third, expecially against defensive sides.  Any thoughts?  I've been watching games on comprehensive, and all that I can see is that my side seems to get stuck with the ball and ends up trying a cross to one of my forwards who is well marked.  It seems my IW-S and WM-A aren't effective in the final third, any ideas to try out?

You are 5th, which is an overachievement. You look great defensively, which is what my tactics are primarily about. I think you should be realistic and try to keep up the good work, because you now finally have a good foundation to build upon. Keep in mind that your players are not world-class, so you cannot expect from them to do wonders. 

If you want to make even greater overachievements with this team, I recommend you watch Rashidi's Kingstonian diaries and learn from him, because he knows how to win trophies even with complete underdogs. I am nowhere near as good a manager/FM player as him, so I fear I cannot give you the kind of advice you are asking for.

[Tcufrog]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Good. It means the tactic works. 

 

That's exactly the sort of football I love the most  

 

You are 5th, which is an overachievement. You look great defensively, which is what my tactics are primarily about. I think you should be realistic and try to keep up the good work, because you now finally have a good foundation to build upon. Keep in mind that your players are not world-class, so you cannot expect from them to do wonders. 

If you want to make even greater overachievements with this team, I recommend you watch Rashidi's Kingstonian diaries and learn from him, because he knows how to win trophies even with complete underdogs. I am nowhere near as good a manager/FM player as him, so I fear I cannot give you the kind of advice you are asking for.

Good recommendations, I’ll check out his videos. I agree that I don’t have the best team out there, but it’s frustrating when my attackers(who are the strength of my team) aren’t being put in positions to score or get good shots on goal. They seem to be stuck in wide positions, I’m wondering if I could change my IW to attack? I’m lacking any movement in the final third on the right side, and my players at this position are very good. Thoughts?

Update: I’m now in 7th in the league after 15 games, I was projected 4th in the season preview. Really struggling to score goals at all, almost no attacking movement when in possession.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Tcufrog

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I agree that I don’t have the best team out there, but it’s frustrating when my attackers(who are the strength of my team) aren’t being put in positions to score or get good shots on goal. They seem to be stuck in wide positions, I’m wondering if I could change my IW to attack? I’m lacking any movement in the final third on the right side, and my players at this position are very good. Thoughts?

Update: I’m now in 7th in the league after 15 games, I was projected 4th in the season preview. Really struggling to score goals at all, almost no attacking movement when in possession.

You'll need to post a screenshot of the tactic again, because I really cannot remember what it looked like last time, given how many people are asking for help on the forum. Also, if you have brought some new players to the team, post their screenshots as well.

As for the attackers being "the strength of your team", exactly that could be a potential problem, because of what I think I had already mentioned before - your team is not ideally balanced across its lines in the sense that your attacking players are better than those in other areas of the team. Having good attackers means little if they are not properly supported by others. Liverpool is not so successful this year because they have a world-class attacking trio, but because they have great all-round midfielders and reliable defenders who make it possible for the forwards to express themselves to full effect. 

[Tcufrog]

12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You'll need to post a screenshot of the tactic again, because I really cannot remember what it looked like last time, given how many people are asking for help on the forum. Also, if you have brought some new players to the team, post their screenshots as well.

As for the attackers being "the strength of your team", exactly that could be a potential problem, because of what I think I had already mentioned before - your team is not ideally balanced across its lines in the sense that your attacking players are better than those in other areas of the team. Having good attackers means little if they are not properly supported by others. Liverpool is not so successful this year because they have a world-class attacking trio, but because they have great all-round midfielders and reliable defenders who make it possible for the forwards to express themselves to full effect. 

I’ll post screenshots tonight. I’ve changed the TI’s based on your recommendations, but the tactical setup is the same as what is in my most recent image post.

A well rounded team is obviously important. After watching the games on comprehensive, I can see that my problem is the lack of attacking space in the final third. What’s frustrating is that the players that should be thriving here are not. The problem doesn’t seem to be talent, hence why I was projected to finish in 4th preseason. The problem is my lack of creating chances, which Cleon used to write is arguably the most important part of a tactic. In my opinion, a talented squad with one of the best strikers in the world (which I have) should be creating far more chances than what I’m seeing.

[Experienced Defender]

13 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

In my opinion, a talented squad with one of the best strikers in the world (which I have) should be creating far more chances than what I’m seeing

Chance creation is not primarily the responsibility of strikers. Midfielders - and even fullbacks - play a more important part in that regard than strikers.

[Tcufrog]

16 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Chance creation is not primarily the responsibility of strikers. Midfielders - and even fullbacks - play a more important part in that regard than strikers.

No doubt, but if players aren’t moving into spaces, there is nowhere to go with the ball. That has been the story as I’ve watched.

[Tcufrog]

12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You'll need to post a screenshot of the tactic again, because I really cannot remember what it looked like last time, given how many people are asking for help on the forum. Also, if you have brought some new players to the team, post their screenshots as well.

As for the attackers being "the strength of your team", exactly that could be a potential problem, because of what I think I had already mentioned before - your team is not ideally balanced across its lines in the sense that your attacking players are better than those in other areas of the team. Having good attackers means little if they are not properly supported by others. Liverpool is not so successful this year because they have a world-class attacking trio, but because they have great all-round midfielders and reliable defenders who make it possible for the forwards to express themselves to full effect. 

@Experienced Defender Take a look at my current tactics and starting XI.  I'm thinking of adding a PI to agudelo as my IW-S to "roam from position" to get some more attacking movement.  Let me know your thoughts.

In 8th place at the break, lost 2-1 to Hannover who are last in the division. My only goal came off a set piece header. I’m about to have to change up my tactic, going on two seasons of sub par results.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Tcufrog

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

 

9 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I'm thinking of adding a PI to agudelo as my IW-S to "roam from position" to get some more attacking movement.  Let me know your thoughts

As I said before, the key problem is the LB position, i.e. the lack of a suitable player in that position to provide better support in attack. That's the only reason I was reluctant to suggest a more attack-minded role there.

But given that the situation is such as it is, the first tweak I would suggest is to change the LB's into WB on support instead of FB (and tell him to dribble less to reduce the risk of losing the ball needlessly).

Try this change first and report back what happens. If that's not enough, I'll tell you what other tweaks you may consider.

Do you always play with standard passing or you switch to shorter on occasion?

[Tcufrog]

55 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

As I said before, the key problem is the LB position, i.e. the lack of a suitable player in that position to provide better support in attack. That's the only reason I was reluctant to suggest a more attack-minded role there.

But given that the situation is such as it is, the first tweak I would suggest is to change the LB's into WB on support instead of FB (and tell him to dribble less to reduce the risk of losing the ball needlessly).

Try this change first and report back what happens. If that's not enough, I'll tell you what other tweaks you may consider.

Do you always play with standard passing or you switch to shorter on occasion?

My backup LB is a Liverpool player I’ve loaned who is very well rounded and plays well, but has the “gets forward whenever possible” PI. For that reason I like Jablonsky because he is more defensive and has great teamwork and work rate. I’ve played both and the results have been similar.

Can I ask what changing from a FB to WB on the left should achieve? My FB is already involved in attacking movement. What I’m struggling with is getting good shots on goal that aren’t random headers or blocked shots from crosses. For example, in the game I just lost to Hannover, I had 30-35 shots with quite a few being accurate shots, but no clear chances.

I use the shorter passing TI sometimes but I’ve found my team gives the ball back too easily more often than not from trying to play short passes back and forth. I would rather my playmakers line up balls to play into attack which they all have Player traits to do.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

Can I ask what changing from a FB to WB on the left should achieve? My FB is already involved in attacking movement

WB role should make him even more involved, especially if you add the Overlap left TI. That can help achieve more dynamic movement not only on the flank but in the attacking third overall. Of course, that at the same time may increase defensive risk, but everything has its price. Risk vs. reward. 

 

3 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I use the shorter passing TI sometimes but I’ve found my team gives the ball back too easily more often than not from trying to play short passes back and forth. I would rather my playmakers line up balls to play into attack which they all have Player traits to do

Here you can try to up the mentality to Positive in combination with shorter passing. 

There are a number of potential tweaks one can try in this type of situations, but you need to watch the matches carefully and add these tweaks gradually and patiently. 

[Tcufrog]

48 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

WB role should make him even more involved, especially if you add the Overlap left TI. That can help achieve more dynamic movement not only on the flank but in the attacking third overall. Of course, that at the same time may increase defensive risk, but everything has its price. Risk vs. reward. 

 

Here you can try to up the mentality to Positive in combination with shorter passing. 

There are a number of potential tweaks one can try in this type of situations, but you need to watch the matches carefully and add these tweaks gradually and patiently. 

Got it, thank you for the advice, I’ll give these a try and see how it goes. Also in the last match I added more direct passing for my WM-S Stoß Berger and really liked what I saw. A few promising through balls to my AF Monier-Clement who is my top goal scorer 

[Tcufrog]

@Experienced Defender So I played my first match in the second half of the season against Augsburg and won 2-0.  I changed up my formation and attached a few pictures.  It played well, and Augsburg played a 4-2-3-1 but as you can see, they hardly had a chance while all of my chances were quite good.  I was able to get Aguedelo more involved in attack. The last graphic are all of my shots, looks pretty good to my naive eyes.

I'm still not set on this tactic, but it looked pretty solid at first glance.  Let me know your thoughts; I'm open to tinkering with it.

[Guerin]

Hey man, I've been following this thread with interest as I'm also trying to put together a 442. The latest incarnation you've posted is very similar to where I'm at with my Arsenal side. At Arsenal there's a choice to be made between getting the best out of Aubameyang or getting the best out of Pepe. I chose Aubameyang which meant using him in his best position as an Advanced Forward on the right. 

In answer to your very first question on this thread my thoughts are this: Advanced Forward has two hard-coded player instructions, get further forward and 

move into channels. So I'm just focusing on maximising those two things in the 442 shape. 

The channels are the space between fullback and centre back which can shift constantly throughout a game (watching Rashidi bust-the-net on channels really helped me.) So to maximise that PI I know that I need players to open up the channels for Auba. Once he's in the channel I want him to be able to cross first time so I put him in the right striker slot (he's right footed.) If I want to open the right sided channel I need to find a way to pull the opposition leftback away from the left centre back. So logically it makes sense to use a player that can hold the width on my right hand side (thus forcing the opp. leftback to close him down and creating space between LCB and LB.) For that I use a wide-midfielder attack (same as you) with a Wingback behind. The reason I chose WM instead of winger is because I want early through balls into Aubameyang which WM seem to do more than a winger- that said, I sometimes throw on a traditional winger if I need to go gung ho at the end of the game. The WBs further adds to the width on that side. I use attack duty on the WM because of the get further forward PI AF has means I need someone getting forward aggressively to back him up.

In terms of a strike partner as in your original question I go back to the AF PI's. I don't want both strikers going into the channels. The reason for that is I've had to create a lot of width on the right to facilitate AF move into channel PI. If my left striker wants to move into channels too, then I need to do the same on the left-hand side (which you've done in your tactic with a RWM/ LW.) My issue with this is striking a defensive balance. By making the pitch so so wide i'm asking my CM's to cover an awful lot of ground in the centre of the pitch which is compounded by the fact that they're likely to be outnumbered in the centre anyway (most teams use 3 players in central midfield. So, by making the decision to not have both strikers move into channels I've narrowed down my role options for the strike partner-- F9, Target Man, Pressing Forwards/d etc. I chose a pressing forward on support (Lacazette.) 

Balancing the width. So with my left striker not moving into channels I can use a more narrow minded left sided player which can help with defensive solidity in the middle. inverted winger or wide playmaker both fit the bill. I like using a wide player that sits narrower because against a 5 man midfield (4231/ 41231) he naturally comes in to help the midfield. I'm sure you could achieve the same effect by using the narrower TI. This narrow wideman closes the channel by cutting inside so its even more important to avoid a moves into channels role striker on the same side (in my opinion.) I can offset the narrowness on that side using an overlapping fullback.

Finally, in terms of players your central midfield need to be complete players with good tackling, physical attributes and at least one with excellent positioning. Overall, you need exceptional work rate and hopefully good aggression from your strikers and all four midfielders. Anyway, here is my tactic which combines all the above (for what it's worth.)

                                              PFs                    AFa

                                     (Lacazette)      (Aubameyang)

       IWs                   DLPd                                BBM                   WMa

(Martinelli)       (Torreira)                        (Guendozi)        (Maitland Niles)

       FBa                 BPD                               CB                         CWBs

 

(Right hand side provides width- Left hand side balances that width by being a bit narrower)

I put the players in so you can check the attributes. Maitland Niles is a bit crap lol. 

TI: higher defensive line, offside trap, more urgent pressing, Distribute to CB + FB, Counter-Press

Note: I often toggle these TI's depending on the match- sometimes pressing high or distributing to defenders can be a terrible idea. 

Also I might try the Carrillelo in here too! 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Guerin

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

@Experienced Defender So I played my first match in the second half of the season against Augsburg and won 2-0.  I changed up my formation and attached a few pictures.  It played well, and Augsburg played a 4-2-3-1 but as you can see, they hardly had a chance while all of my chances were quite good.  I was able to get Aguedelo more involved in attack. The last graphic are all of my shots, looks pretty good to my naive eyes.

I'm still not set on this tactic, but it looked pretty solid at first glance.  Let me know your thoughts; I'm open to tinkering with it.

As long as it works well, do not make any changes. 

[Tcufrog]

@Guerin Thank you for sharing and for your explanation, hows that formation working out for you? As far as the new formation I created, I’m not sure the left side with the W-S and FB-S will play out as I’d like, but I’ll keep an eye on it. 
 

my players really lack aggression, so that makes things hard for me in the middle, and I definitely can’t counter press. I have speed and anticipation at the back, so I can play a little higher up, but I like the idea of playing a rather direct style from the back as I have great attack players and good passing all around.

[Guerin]

11 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

hows that formation working out for you?

Well I was floating around midtable/ bottom half. But since I landed on this I've had 9 wins and a draw (all competitions.) Draw was with Chelsea but we battered them. One game against Newcastle was 5-4 and a crazy one so for sure there's still work to do, but i got a lot of clean sheets and sitting in the top four now.

11 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I’m not sure the left side with the W-S and FB-S will play out as I’d like

I actually quite liked FBs with Wa.  I assume you're playing Stossberger there? Looking at his stats, I'd make Stossberger Left Wide Midfielder on attack duty. Good positioning, teamwork, passing decisions etc. Tackling could be better (and aggression) but otherwise perfect for the role. I'd also partner him on that side with your advanced forward agudelo in the left slot. Stossberger traits play killer ball seems perfect for Agudelo to run onto IMO. Agudelo is technically good enough and young enough to develop his weaker foot- so I'd just tell him to do that. 

 

11 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

I like the idea of playing a rather direct style from the back as I have great attack players and good passing all around.

I know exactly what you mean. My natural instinct for a 442 is to retreat into shape absorb pressure and then counter directly, but I just couldn't get that working. Once I increased my mentality to positive and higher defensive line with offside trap I started seeing a lot more of what I was looking for. Maybe because with higher mentality and D line my players are more encouraged to burst forward aggressively (especially fullbacks/wingbacks)? Not entirely sure why it works, but it does. Defensively, I'm almost always in a two banks of four quite deep because I don't have much possession, 40%ish in some games.

Jablonsky looks class. In my setup Torreira (v. similar to Jablonsky) has the play simple passes trait- it's less hollywood, but the way he plays with that trait in a DLPd reminds me a bit of Xavi at Barca. Just constantly moving the ball like a metronome. Prefer him to Xhaka for his defensive characteristics. Maybe teach Jablonsky the same way?

Anyway, looking forward to the updates

Edited March 13, 2020 by Guerin

[Guerin]

11 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

my players really lack aggression

For me thats a big issue. Aggression, work rate, tackling. I look for players with at least two of these three. A lot of goals come from an opposition getting too casual passing around in my half then suddenly my strikers or midfielders nick the ball and we're in. I'm convinced that's because of those three attributes. It's especially useful late in games when I've got a narrow lead. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Guerin

[Tcufrog]

14 hours ago, Guerin said:

I actually quite liked FBs with Wa.  I assume you're playing Stossberger there? Looking at his stats, I'd make Stossberger Left Wide Midfielder on attack duty. Good positioning, teamwork, passing decisions etc. Tackling could be better (and aggression) but otherwise perfect for the role. I'd also partner him on that side with your advanced forward agudelo in the left slot. Stossberger traits play killer ball seems perfect for Agudelo to run onto IMO. Agudelo is technically good enough and young enough to develop his weaker foot- so I'd just tell him to do that. 

I'm playing Stossberger as the W-S on the left side, it seems to be working perfectly with Agudelo as the WM-A on the other side because Agudelo can run onto crosses and has very good overall attacking traits.  I'd prefer Agudelo in the attacking role over Stossberger because Stossberger lacks the final third traits Agudelo has (Stossberger only has 10 dribbling as well).  If you have a different opinion I'm all ears, appreciate your input and glad you like the thread!

14 hours ago, Guerin said:

I know exactly what you mean. My natural instinct for a 442 is to retreat into shape absorb pressure and then counter directly, but I just couldn't get that working. Once I increased my mentality to positive and higher defensive line with offside trap I started seeing a lot more of what I was looking for. Maybe because with higher mentality and D line my players are more encouraged to burst forward aggressively (especially fullbacks/wingbacks)? Not entirely sure why it works, but it does. Defensively, I'm almost always in a two banks of four quite deep because I don't have much possession, 40%ish in some games.

Jablonsky looks class. In my setup Torreira (v. similar to Jablonsky) has the play simple passes trait- it's less hollywood, but the way he plays with that trait in a DLPd reminds me a bit of Xavi at Barca. Just constantly moving the ball like a metronome. Prefer him to Xhaka for his defensive characteristics. Maybe teach Jablonsky the same way?

Very good recommendation about Jablonsky, he has great mentals for a 4-4-2 midfield role, and I also use him as my defensive LB when playing against much better sides.  Surprisingly my possession has been pretty good in the four games I've played so far, all above 50%.

14 hours ago, Guerin said:

For me thats a big issue. Aggression, work rate, tackling. I look for players with at least two of these three. A lot of goals come from an opposition getting too casual passing around in my half then suddenly my strikers or midfielders nick the ball and we're in. I'm convinced that's because of those three attributes. It's especially useful late in games when I've got a narrow lead. 

I'm lacking in aggression here but the other two are decent for my squad.  Hence why I don't press hard when in defense.  I play a higher line because I have the athletes to do so and I like to compress the 4-4-2 so as not to allow opposition much space between my midfield and defense, but I'm okay with the opposition pushing forward into my half so I can have numbers when I win possession.  The key to this has been getting my best players in positions on/off the ball when we win possession.
 

***Quick update, since I changed tactics I've gone 3-1 in league play, winning 2-0, 4-1 against Leverkusen (1st in the league), losing a tough game 4-3 against Bayern, then winning 3-0.  I was up 2-0 on Bayern before they got lucky with a few set piece goals which did me in(I still outplayed them). Overall my tactic is playing really well.  Still not sure about the LB position, keeping an eye on it.  I'm not having a crazy amount of shots on goal, but the chances I do have are excellent.  The percentage of chances I'm converting is very high.  Now I just have to shore up my set piece play and I think I'll be good to go!  Really appreciate the feedback here, thanks!

[Tcufrog]

Just finished up the season, finished in 6th in the Bundesliga after being predicted 4th preseason.  Not happy with the final result, but I see a lot I can build on. 

Looking forward to next season, I want to build on my tactic.  My main striker Monier-Clement is clinical in front of goal.  I want to get him even more chances next season.

My team is the top in the Bundesliga in the following attribute categories: passing, crossing, strength, marking, and tackling.

This seems like a great opportunity to start playing more aggressively while getting the ball forward more quickly.  The only issue is that my team has below average aggression.

If anybody has ideas here, I'm all ears! @Experienced Defender @Rashidi

[Tcufrog]

Here is a formation I'm thinking about for next year. both a normal and counter version

[Experienced Defender]

If your team is now stronger than it was, I don't see why would you want to switch to a more defensive (bottom-heavy) formation in the first place?

When it comes to your 2 tactics, the counter-attacking one makes more sense IMHO generally speaking (even though I don't think you need either the overlap left or regroup team instruction). I am not sure though that you need a typical counter-attacking tactic anyway now that your team has improved so much in terms of quality and strength.

As for your regular (non-counter) tactic, it's definitely not my cup of tea and I see a lot of potential problems, but maybe it will work (who knows?). Try and see.

[Tcufrog]

2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

If your team is now stronger than it was, I don't see why would you want to switch to a more defensive (bottom-heavy) formation in the first place?

When it comes to your 2 tactics, the counter-attacking one makes more sense IMHO generally speaking (even though I don't think you need either the overlap left or regroup team instruction). I am not sure though that you need a typical counter-attacking tactic anyway now that your team has improved so much in terms of quality and strength.

As for your regular (non-counter) tactic, it's definitely not my cup of tea and I see a lot of potential problems, but maybe it will work (who knows?). Try and see.

Thank you for the direction. What do you not like about the regular tactic? I noticed this season I really struggled creating chances when my wingers weren’t beating their man one on one. Figured some underlapping play could help.

[Experienced Defender]

14 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

What do you not like about the regular tactic?

I don't like its defensive side in the first place - overly aggressive out-of-possession TIs, which is then compounded by the high team mentality (positive) as well as the overlap left team instruction (where you already have a fullback in a very attack-minded and aggressive role, so there is no reason to further increase his mentality). 

I also don't like both strikers being played in the same role (DLF), even if their duties differ. But that's just my personal opinion based on my tactical approach and football logic