4-3-1-2 Vertical Tiki-Taka

[Tyrinko]

Hello everyone. I am trying to implement my version of Vertical tiki-taka in 4-3-1-2 formation with Bolton Wanderers. Here is my tactics
 
I don´t like my overall gameplay :
 1- my game is too rushed (so often my CBs play long passes instead of playing short)
2- instead of playing short my players play long and lost a ball - maybe need more runners???
3 - attacking trio is nowhere near good - maybe need better support for them?? (pass in to the space I think isn´t great for possesion game because players will go long instead short fast passing)
4 - how to setup fast, short vertical passes???? I found Rashidi´s old video about passing where I found that "shorter + faster tempo+ lower mentality is low risk vertical passing.
5- Roles combination.
Is there someone who can help me??? 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tyrinko said:

 

1 hour ago, Tyrinko said:

I am trying to implement my version of Vertical tiki-taka

What exactly do you mean by "your version" of VTT? And based on what do you think that such a style of play suits your team?

Btw, instructions such as low LOE and regroup does not really go hand in hand with any type/version of tiki-taka or possession-oriented styles of football in general. 

[Tyrinko]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

What exactly do you mean by "your version" of VTT? And based on what do you think that such a style of play suits your team?

Btw, instructions such as low LOE and regroup does not really go hand in hand with any type/version of tiki-taka or possession-oriented styles of football in general. 

I called it "my version" because it isn´t try to replicated someone tactics (aka Sarriball). I want to play this formation and when I watchin styles I found that vertical tiki-taka is most interesting to me now. So I try to buy some players which could be good for this style (in my judgment), and I am also in love for bargain buys :-). 
I try to low LOE because I want to by compact in the middle so teams so often try long against me and Raya is pretty good in sweeping this balls (not everyone but a lot is succesfull). Regroup because when I counterpress with players season before I was too open everywhere - so try regroup and my front three has got more urgent pressing and tackle harder. But you´re right this could be one of the aspect which I could do better to help my tactics.

[yellowforever]

Maybe get the CBs to take fewer risks? Occassionally your CBs (especially if they aren't great and you're getting pressed high) will just lump it.

As said earlier I don't like regroup - with possession based formations and teams that tend to attack through the middle, counter-pressing is very effective. For example if your AM loses the ball you will have a lot of players in that area to win it back.

I don't like the AM (S) there. You have a DLF (S) ahead and 3 midfielders behind him so I'd like an attack role there. I'd try either a Treq or SS there as they are extremely aggressive either with the ball and it's roaming or with the SS's runs into the box.

Good luck, it's a good formation in my opinion.

[radenje]

1 hour ago, yellowforever said:

Maybe get the CBs to take fewer risks? Occassionally your CBs (especially if they aren't great and you're getting pressed high) will just lump it.

As said earlier I don't like regroup - with possession based formations and teams that tend to attack through the middle, counter-pressing is very effective. For example if your AM loses the ball you will have a lot of players in that area to win it back.

I don't like the AM (S) there. You have a DLF (S) ahead and 3 midfielders behind him so I'd like an attack role there. I'd try either a Treq or SS there as they are extremely aggressive either with the ball and it's roaming or with the SS's runs into the box.

Good luck, it's a good formation in my opinion.

what exactly does 'take fewer/more risks' mean? take fewer risks aka clear the ball away and lose possession or don't waste the ball, keep it and make short passes even when closed down by opponent? More risks mean make the risky pass to the closest teammate when closed down or what? I have trouble with understanding this team instruction. So If I want my team to build up from the back ALWAYS, make the way out of enemy's pressing by short fast passes and one twos, should I pick take more risks (because it's risky to play short passes with eachother at the back when closed down by opponent) or should I take fewer risks (because it means to play safe and not waste ball - but then, take fewer risks seems like clearing the ball away when closed down) so how does it actually work in different scenarios?? 

[Tyrinko]

10 hours ago, yellowforever said:

Maybe get the CBs to take fewer risks? Occassionally your CBs (especially if they aren't great and you're getting pressed high) will just lump it.

As said earlier I don't like regroup - with possession based formations and teams that tend to attack through the middle, counter-pressing is very effective. For example if your AM loses the ball you will have a lot of players in that area to win it back.

I don't like the AM (S) there. You have a DLF (S) ahead and 3 midfielders behind him so I'd like an attack role there. I'd try either a Treq or SS there as they are extremely aggressive either with the ball and it's roaming or with the SS's runs into the box.

Good luck, it's a good formation in my opinion.

I try even "take fewer risks" but it didn´t help. AM (s) is there because I want to have someone who will connect midfield and attack and the game won´t be rushed through him like AP does. Try SS but this created hole because he attack too early, and don´t like Treq because I´ve got my front three with press more and tackle harder. 
 

 

8 hours ago, radenje said:

what exactly does 'take fewer/more risks' mean? take fewer risks aka clear the ball away and lose possession or don't waste the ball, keep it and make short passes even when closed down by opponent? More risks mean make the risky pass to the closest teammate when closed down or what? I have trouble with understanding this team instruction. So If I want my team to build up from the back ALWAYS, make the way out of enemy's pressing by short fast passes and one twos, should I pick take more risks (because it's risky to play short passes with eachother at the back when closed down by opponent) or should I take fewer risks (because it means to play safe and not waste ball - but then, take fewer risks seems like clearing the ball away when closed down) so how does it actually work in different scenarios?? 

Yes there is a problem with understanding this things. For me the "risky pas" is try to pass through the lines - BPD has that and is doing exactly this. The chance about pass being intercepted is high- so that is why it is risky.

[Contexx]

I use virtually the same roles with Parma in the first season, so the squad is not good by any stretch of the imagination, particularly in defense. I started using it because I had a number of decent central midfielders and it's a formation I've always enjoyed.

One of the advantages of this tactic is the "space" you get if you lump it under pressure, particularly in this match engine. I'm not saying play hoofball, but don't get caught up on the possession stats. I usually play a shorter passing game and my dlp or mezzala is still able to lump it to the rabid PF for a one of one (and he doesn't miss from time to time).

High tempo/short passing/play out of defense?  Yup, unless you've got regens of Beckenbauer and Maldini with Nesta waiting in the wings, you're lumping it long for all the wrong reasons. To play that kind of game, stringing gorgeous short passes together you need even more gorgeous weather conditions and players with excellent technique.

Personally, I play somewhat wider, keeping my passing length at mixed, and allow myself as much of the pitch as possible, especially as I don't trust my players to get out of tight spaces. 

I imagine your AMC is particularly frustrating to watch. The idea of him spraying passes or running on to flick ons from your DLF just doesn't pan out, does it?  I set mine to roam and as a AP, so that he can have a more dynamic interplay with the mezzala.  Also, I found that putting the striker as a Complete Forward as opposed to DLF helps create space and reduce congestion in that middle area. 

The line of engagement thing is another thing you may want to take a look at.  Do you really want your front three in the center of midfield praying for your poor fullbacks to somehow release them?  Personally, especially against teams that like to build from the back, I like to up the line of engagement to "higher".  This gets the front three actually defending from the front and posing more of a threat.  Even if they're bypassed, if by chance you actually win the ball deeper, you'll have three players in the center to keep the opposition honest.  On support duty, your AMC will still track back, and if you give him more closing down, he'll help out a lot. 

"Play out of defense" works - until it doesn't.  If the defenders don't have any safer options, they'll play it long, especially as you have a deep lying playmaker on defend there.  He'll try to make himself available, and if he's marked, then the only other option is to lump it to the pressing forward and hope for the best.  I countered that by having my Advanced playmaker on "roam from position" so that there is another option high up the pitch. Another option would be putting your DLP on Support so that he has the option of riskier passes - otherwise he just chooses the safest, shortest, and easiest option of recycling possession (more often than not back to your centerbacks. 

Playing against teams that clog the midfield and have outlets on the wings, this is a very dangerous system to play if you want to keep possession and have a slow build up.  Even the mezzala's real estate is limited, and if he loses the ball, it's very dangerous.  My own midfield three are CM DLP(D) and B2B / Mezz, depending on the system I'm up against.  Up front I have a complete forward, who is still eager to drop deep, but more often than not finds pockets of space in the more advanced wide areas. 

 

As for short vertical passes, I would guess having a combo of DLP (D) and AP, along with slighly more static outer midfielders might work - but only if your players have very strong technique and mental stats, since you'd basically be playing through the opposition's midfield. 

 

Anyway I hope that helps. I personally enjoy the 4312, as it's very flexible and can produce some beautiful football when it works - and utter shambles when it doesn't. 

[Tyrinko]

7 hours ago, Contexx said:

I use virtually the same roles with Parma in the first season, so the squad is not good by any stretch of the imagination, particularly in defense. I started using it because I had a number of decent central midfielders and it's a formation I've always enjoyed.

One of the advantages of this tactic is the "space" you get if you lump it under pressure, particularly in this match engine. I'm not saying play hoofball, but don't get caught up on the possession stats. I usually play a shorter passing game and my dlp or mezzala is still able to lump it to the rabid PF for a one of one (and he doesn't miss from time to time).

High tempo/short passing/play out of defense?  Yup, unless you've got regens of Beckenbauer and Maldini with Nesta waiting in the wings, you're lumping it long for all the wrong reasons. To play that kind of game, stringing gorgeous short passes together you need even more gorgeous weather conditions and players with excellent technique.

Personally, I play somewhat wider, keeping my passing length at mixed, and allow myself as much of the pitch as possible, especially as I don't trust my players to get out of tight spaces. 

I imagine your AMC is particularly frustrating to watch. The idea of him spraying passes or running on to flick ons from your DLF just doesn't pan out, does it?  I set mine to roam and as a AP, so that he can have a more dynamic interplay with the mezzala.  Also, I found that putting the striker as a Complete Forward as opposed to DLF helps create space and reduce congestion in that middle area. 

The line of engagement thing is another thing you may want to take a look at.  Do you really want your front three in the center of midfield praying for your poor fullbacks to somehow release them?  Personally, especially against teams that like to build from the back, I like to up the line of engagement to "higher".  This gets the front three actually defending from the front and posing more of a threat.  Even if they're bypassed, if by chance you actually win the ball deeper, you'll have three players in the center to keep the opposition honest.  On support duty, your AMC will still track back, and if you give him more closing down, he'll help out a lot. 

"Play out of defense" works - until it doesn't.  If the defenders don't have any safer options, they'll play it long, especially as you have a deep lying playmaker on defend there.  He'll try to make himself available, and if he's marked, then the only other option is to lump it to the pressing forward and hope for the best.  I countered that by having my Advanced playmaker on "roam from position" so that there is another option high up the pitch. Another option would be putting your DLP on Support so that he has the option of riskier passes - otherwise he just chooses the safest, shortest, and easiest option of recycling possession (more often than not back to your centerbacks. 

Playing against teams that clog the midfield and have outlets on the wings, this is a very dangerous system to play if you want to keep possession and have a slow build up.  Even the mezzala's real estate is limited, and if he loses the ball, it's very dangerous.  My own midfield three are CM DLP(D) and B2B / Mezz, depending on the system I'm up against.  Up front I have a complete forward, who is still eager to drop deep, but more often than not finds pockets of space in the more advanced wide areas. 

 

As for short vertical passes, I would guess having a combo of DLP (D) and AP, along with slighly more static outer midfielders might work - but only if your players have very strong technique and mental stats, since you'd basically be playing through the opposition's midfield. 

 

Anyway I hope that helps. I personally enjoy the 4312, as it's very flexible and can produce some beautiful football when it works - and utter shambles when it doesn't. 

Firstly thanks for your opinion and ideas. I try watching full games and analyse/twerk what´s went wrong and what could be done better. After this my tactics looks - 

Lots of support duties and fluid team - so players are closer together . Sometimes I change LCB to BPD when needed. Fullback on the left is on attack to run from deep to attract some interest from opposition and create space for LCM (take fewer risk, tackle harder and hold position PI - wanted him as a controller in the middle and cover for my left side). Fullback has got PI "take fewer risk" because when he is on attack he attemp a lot of dribbles and lost a lot of balls. DLFs upfront on the left is role that I am not really sure about is - I wanted someone to act as a second striker. 
On the right side is Full back on support with PI "Get further forward" and RCM is Btb - these two could combine together and with F9 upfront they could interchagne positions between them and still be solid in defence. 
In middle is DLP on defence - I want here player which will act as a "metronome" - get passes from CBs to bait opponent to come high to the pitch and try to press our build up. This is the role I am thinking about to change it to CM on defense to have central pivot - DLP still moves to the sides. AM on support has PI of "Close down more", "Tackle harder", "Move in to the channels" "Dribble more". This PI are because I want him to be in halfspaces and force opposition to press him - possible of creating holes. 
I changed Wingbacks to Fullback because WB goes up too early when I am trying to force opposition to high press I don´t have wide players - so opposition has easier job to press us. Fullbacks goes up later and are useful to create overload in ou buildup.

As a TI I use "Much shorter passing" (sometimes change to "short" when opposition is pressing us high, to hit them on a counter), "Higher tempo" to pass faster, "Work ball into box" to keep ball and don´t rush decision in opponent half, "Focus play through the middle" because I´ve got overload middle and want movement exactly from there, "Wide width" because my formation is narrow by itself and want to create some space in the middle for my players. 
Counterpress is using because when I lost ball, I´ve got a lot of players around and opposition needs to act quickly to pass it to the wings where is harder to reach ball for me - this will be my next step, to create pressing paterns to force opponents play through the middle, where I´ve got numerical advantage.
I don´t play on counter´s because my game is so often rushed and my aim is to attack in speed with short passes - something like a Napoli in real life under Napoli.
Using Higher defensive line with more urgent pressing is to help press opposition and force them to mistakes. Ofside trap is there to help our defensive play so when opponent try to play long ball on 90% it is offside or my Sweeper keeper takes a free ball - yes sometimes it is clear goalscoring opportuninty but there is small risk/high reward situation for me.

[Tyrinko]

After a few games and trying I change tactics to something like this. Fullbacks instead of wingback because I invite pressure on me to open space upfront so more passing options deep is needed. Fullback on left has PI " Get further forward" so this makes him useful in opposition half, CML is Carrilero to be something between "BtB" midfielder and cover midfielder when fullback is advanced. 
On the right is mezzala to be further forward so my FB is less attacking. Question is front three. From my AM I want to be my third attacker - runner from deeper position but also be creative (Similary to Firmino IRL). Front two I want from them to be runner (for me PF on support is exactly this) and another one who can run, create space and most important scores a lot of goals - I don´t like Advanced forward because he is too high. I was trying also F9 because of his movement but is wasn´t great. Has someone any ideas to create goalscoring monster and second striker from my front two with remain to possesion based style???