Trying to create a 5-2-3

[Jommelb]

I usually play LLM and play mosly direct, but @herne79 's thread inspired me to try something different (yeah I know, I'm number 273 who got inspired by it, so good job!)

I started a save with Almere City (read an article about them that inspired me too). 

I created a system that worked ok during pre-season, but since the league started we're getting our ass kicked too often. I think I know (some of the) issues, but I don't know how to fix them. Maybe I'm trying to do something that's more or less impossible. Ok let's get going.
I found two players in my squad where I wanted to build the tactic around:

He is our most creative guy and I want to use him as an advanced playmaker on the wing (I've always wanted to try that role). I know he lacks some composure and decision making, but he's the best I've got.

This is a little bit weird player. He seems like a nice libero to me. Never tried that role too, so why not...
The tactic:

The idea is to dominate in possession. Press high and win the ball back as quick as possible. Possession numbers are ok. Most of the time between 55-60, sometimes more than 60.
The AP is told to sit narrower and is allowed to roam so he will be more in the center. He often draws the opponents RB with him, creating space for the overlap and a cross or cutback (hoping for the cutback, that's why we're attacking fairly narrow). I went for a WB(s) and overlap because a WB(a) will dribble more and gave us a lot of lost possession. 
The other idea is to overload the left flank and create space and switch to the other side for the IF(a) to attack the box and hopefully score or assist.
The Libero and the Cm (d) should be supportive in the center to recycle possession. 

Issues:
We're incredible vulnerable for counter attacks! Teams often use the space behind my WB's. A lot of goals come from an (early) cross from one winger to the other who scores at the second post.
One of the reasons is the positioning of the CB's. Look in the picture below. When we are in possession they are (almost) as wide as my WB's, with the libero going forward this creates massive gaps. I can't get them to stay a little narrower (I guess they do this automaticcaly when you play with a libero?). Any ideas on how to fix this?

Another issue is getting the high press to work. Sometimes it works really well, but very often teams are able to beat the press. One of the reasons is the CM(d). He is on a (relative) defensive mentality and he doen't really step in and press. When the other team plays with one or two DM's they can easily beat the press. If I change him to a support duty the press works better, but we're even more exposed since we're playing without a DM. 
Maybe this system isn't suited to play a gegenpress style, because there are not enough players high up the pitch. 

Another issue:

When we build up down the left flank there is always a huge empty space because the MC on the right comes towards the ball. I've tried changing his role (cm(s)), but it doesn't help, he will still come towards the ball (no ppm). Any ideas on how to get a player in that area? If a player is there he draws an opponent with him which creates space, or he is in free space to do something with te ball. I could go for the IWB, but then I don't have any width on that flank... 

One last thing, which might be about quality. When my AP passes to my WB on the left he often passes the to the corner of the field instead of a low through ball. No idea why, now I get long crosses instead of cutbacks:

This pass ends in the corner over the sideline. If he gives it low so the WB can take it with him we have an opportunity. This happens quite often. 

There are more issues of course, we don't really score a lot or create CCC. But who knows that's something for later. I hope I gave enough context to give me some tips.

[crusadertsar]

Part of your problem of being open to counterattacks is probably using a libero combined with more advanced wingback roles. I can't stress the importance of a good solid 3 man defense in a tactic like this. I'm partial to a good 3-5-2 (it's actually with wingbacks and two strikers and AMC). But I use a more conservative Ball-playing Defender in middle, with more freedom to pass long. Libero on attack is a really aggressive role, which will act more like regista and won't leave much coverage once wingbacks bomb forward. So basically you are only left with 2 centrebacks. While using solid 3 cbs I'm able to use complete wingbacks to act very aggressively and move forward a lot more to overload. But because of my solid defense I barely leak goals. I wrote about this tactic quite extensively and actually have a new article about it coming out tomorrow. It's a great formation but you have to some risks. 

[rverdag2]

Can you post your tactic? I am very interested in seeing it. Thanks

En 13/3/2019 a las 7:16, summatsupeer dijo:

What type of chances is your forward good at scoring?  Is he a big guy and good at heading? Is he quick and able to run with the ball? Is he good at anticipating and finding space? Think about things like this to identify what types of chances to try to create.

Then you have to actually create the best quality chances of those types you can for him. That doesn't mean just swing cross after cross into a big guy and expect him to 1v6+.  In the same way if its a quick forward it takes more than just trying through ball after through ball, you need to create space and give him support.

Look at the players supporting him, do they have the ability to create chances for him or are they more selfish/individualistic? A fast dribbler that can beat his man can create space for others but does he have the attributes to take advantage of the space (assuming someone is in position to use it) 

 

hace 27 minutos, crusadertsar dijo:

Part of your problem of being open to counterattacks is probably using a libero combined with more advanced wingback roles. I can't stress the importance of a good solid 3 man defense in a tactic like this. I'm partial to a good 3-5-2 (it's actually with wingbacks and two strikers and AMC). But I use a more conservative Ball-playing Defender in middle, with more freedom to pass long. Libero on attack is a really aggressive role, which will act more like regista and won't leave much coverage once wingbacks bomb forward. So basically you are only left with 2 centrebacks. While using solid 3 cbs I'm able to use complete wingbacks to act very aggressively and move forward a lot more to overload. But because of my solid defense I barely leak goals. I wrote about this tactic quite extensively and actually have a new article about it coming out tomorrow. It's a great formation but you have to some risks. 

 

[rverdag2]

Sorry I was talking to crusaderstar

[crusadertsar]

33 minutes ago, rverdag2 said:

Sorry I was talking to crusaderstar

I wrote about it on here recently, it was here:

I was explaining the defensive trio in that thread. Tomorrow I'll post part 2 about midfield and wingbacks on dictatethegame.com and on forums here.

that's the final tactic.

Had a lot of success testing it with Frankfurt (also another thread on forums) and Valencia. Planning to translate it to my main Dynamo Kyiv save. You do need the right players for it especially in wingback and midfield slots. What they do during transition phase is vital to how well it all works.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Jommelb said:

We're incredible vulnerable for counter attacks! Teams often use the space behind my WB's. A lot of goals come from an (early) cross from one winger to the other who scores at the second post

You are managing a LL team, so it's reasonable to assume your players aren't even close to being top-class. Now, look at your instructions:

- overlap left (increases the mentality of your left WB, increasing the vulnerability on that flank)

- counter-press (asks your players, except for the back 3, to press the opposition immediately as the ball has been lost, which logically disrupts your overall defensive shape)

- much higher DL (leaves acres of space behind your defense for quick opposition forwards to potentially exploit)

- more urgent pressing (forces your players to step out of position earlier and more aggressively, which again compromises the defensive shape)

- libero on attack duty (self-explaining)

And then add your high-risks team mentality to all this, which further compounds the defensive issues inherent to your tactic.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Jommelb said:

When we build up down the left flank there is always a huge empty space because the MC on the right comes towards the ball. I've tried changing his role (cm(s)), but it doesn't help, he will still come towards the ball (no ppm)

A player on support duty, especially midfielder, will naturally tend to move into positions where he will be available for a pass and more directly involved in the build-up of play. But that's not a bad thing by any means. Because that not only helps your team better control possession and retain the ball, but can also be useful for creating overloads. Bear also in mind that you play on a narrower width, which also contributes to some degree to this kind of behavior (albeit not decisively).

[Jommelb]

13 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Part of your problem of being open to counterattacks is probably using a libero combined with more advanced wingback roles. I can't stress the importance of a good solid 3 man defense in a tactic like this. I'm partial to a good 3-5-2 (it's actually with wingbacks and two strikers and AMC). But I use a more conservative Ball-playing Defender in middle, with more freedom to pass long. Libero on attack is a really aggressive role, which will act more like regista and won't leave much coverage once wingbacks bomb forward. So basically you are only left with 2 centrebacks. While using solid 3 cbs I'm able to use complete wingbacks to act very aggressively and move forward a lot more to overload. But because of my solid defense I barely leak goals. I wrote about this tactic quite extensively and actually have a new article about it coming out tomorrow. It's a great formation but you have to some risks. 

Thanks for the reply. I've thought about a BPD and I know it's a safer option. But the guy I'm playing in that role has also great dribbling. Against a 2-striker system it works great. Very often he dribbles between the two strikers into the midfield beating their first line and creating an extra man in midfield. Any ideas on how to make it work with a libero? Especially the two CB's, is it possible to keep them more narrow in possession?
I know I have too much risk in my tactic, but I don't know how to make it less risky and still play with a libero. Tried a WB(d), but he is also too advanced to give cover against a counter attack.
 

12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You are managing a LL team, so it's reasonable to assume your players aren't even close to being top-class. Now, look at your instructions:

- overlap left (increases the mentality of your left WB, increasing the vulnerability on that flank)

- counter-press (asks your players, except for the back 3, to press the opposition immediately as the ball has been lost, which logically disrupts your overall defensive shape)

- much higher DL (leaves acres of space behind your defense for quick opposition forwards to potentially exploit)

- more urgent pressing (forces your players to step out of position earlier and more aggressively, which again compromises the defensive shape)

- libero on attack duty (self-explaining)

And then add your high-risks team mentality to all this, which further compounds the defensive issues inherent to your tactic.

Well for me LL team is more the bottom of the English leagues, but ok they're not top-class. 
The idea was to dominate possession and win the ball back as soon as possible. But you're saying that these instructions are too much all together? 
I'll try to play a little less risky. 

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Jommelb said:

Well for me LL team is more the bottom of the English leagues, but ok they're not top-class

Maybe I misunderstood your opening post. Do you play in Eredivisie or in a lower level league in Netherland?

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Jommelb said:

The idea was to dominate possession and win the ball back as soon as possible. But you're saying that these instructions are too much all together? 
I'll try to play a little less risky.

You can dominate possession without being too aggressive, especially if your team is not a top one. What I would try first if I were in your place is this:

- lower mentality to Balanced

- lower DL to just higher (instead of much higher)

- remove both counter-press and more urgent pressing, but instruct your both wide forwards to close down more (in their PIs). The striker already has max pressing due to his PF role.

- tell both CMs to mark tighter

- use a BPD on stopper duty instead of a libero (or at least change the libero's duty to support if you insist on using that role anyway) and also tell him to mark tighter

Regarding in-possession instructions, I would remove the narrow(er) width and lower tempo, but add the "Play out of defence" and "Shorter passing" instead.

Since I don't know your team and quality of your players in general, take these suggestions with a pinch of salt. Maybe you will need to play even less aggressively (more cautiously), but you cannot know until you try 

[Jommelb]

17 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- tell both CMs to mark tighter

Why? This seems not a good idea since I face a lot of teams that play with three midfielders in the centre. I guess this instruction would make it easier for them to find the free man in midfield. I think when they play with a DM he would get even more freedom since my midfielders mark probably the other two CM's.
 

17 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Regarding in-possession instructions, I would remove the narrow(er) width and lower tempo, but add the "Play out of defence" and "Shorter passing" instead.

I've tried both instructions (shorter passing and lower tempo), but I'm not sure which one works better. I need at least one of them I think, because playing with both on normal we lose possession too easy. Why would you pick shorter passing and not the tempo?

[DoubleDenimSuccess]

20 minutes ago, Jommelb said:

Why? This seems not a good idea since I face a lot of teams that play with three midfielders in the centre. I guess this instruction would make it easier for them to find the free man in midfield. I think when they play with a DM he would get even more freedom since my midfielders mark probably the other two CM's

If you have workmanlike CM's it is of huge benefit to ask them to mark tighter. It effectively cuts off passing options for the opposition. Opposition players often revert to playing the ball backwards or playing a riskier pass which often or not leads to nothing because they cant recycle possession easily through their CM's.

I started doing this a few weeks back and it has worked very effectively for me. you will be surprised how much more compact you will be. Obviously you need the right players to perform the duty, no point in having flairy little CM's with not very good positioning, anticipation, marking, tackling stats etc.

I see and set my CM two as more disruptive players, breaking up the play to recycle onto the more creative, attacking players in my team which more often or not are players in wide positions.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Jommelb said:

Why? This seems not a good idea since I face a lot of teams that play with three midfielders in the centre. I guess this instruction would make it easier for them to find the free man in midfield. I think when they play with a DM he would get even more freedom since my midfielders mark probably the other two CM's.

No, this instruction is not about marking specific opposition players. It's just one way of putting pressure on the opposition during their build-up phase of the game, which is safer than using high pressing urgency or moving d-line too high up the pitch. 

 

4 hours ago, Jommelb said:

I've tried both instructions (shorter passing and lower tempo), but I'm not sure which one works better

I didn't say that you should use both. To the contrary, here's the quote of what I wrote: "remove the narrow(er) width and lower tempo, but add the "Play out of defence" and "Shorter passing" instead".

Because shorter passing and low tempo at the same time would be an overkill. I personally believe that shorter passing and normal (default) tempo would work better for what you want to achieve than would the opposite.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Jommelb said:

Why would you pick shorter passing and not the tempo?

Because shorter passing already reduces tempo a bit (even if that may not be always visible in the tactics creator), but to a lesser degree than lowering the tempo does. I personally prefer a different style of football - i.e. faster and more direct - but for the possession-based game you want to achieve, I think shorter passing/default tempo is the right choice. And of course, playing out of defence is something possession football logically implies.