A cry for help: reading the PSV-Squad

[VV Bal op de Lat]

Dear Football Manager experts,

I'm very insecure about posting this topic because I'm afraid I've created a big monster which can't be tamed. But since I already started writing all the information I'm now praying you guys can  help me with it.

For this thread I have thought about 4 major goals I would really like to achieve with your help: 
1. I want to learn the strengths/weaknesses of this PSV Squad.
2. I want to learn how to use the strengths/weaknesses of this team to make a succesful tactic that fits the team (How can I make my star-players play their best football?)
3. I want to learn how I can decide what tactic I can use best with this squad in a competition where I'm considered to be title-contenders.
4. I want to learn how I can decide what tactic I can use best with this squad in a competition where I'm considered to be a huge underdog.

 

Intro

I have played FM17 for hundreds of hours. I've managed to achieve some succes with some saves, but the feeling keeps coming back that I'm not always entirely sure what I am doing and how I can read my players' strength and adapt this into a succesful tactic. Now I'm asking your help to mentor me and teach me. I've read a lot of the guides available on this forum and have learnt a lot. But this game keeps frustrating me because I'm having issues in understanding why sometimes my tactics work and other times they don't. I'm guessing I would really benefit from some mentoring, so that is why I've started this topic. I'm asking for your patience and your help! I already apologize for the enormous wave of information and questions I'm flooding you with. Every feedback about my questioning and about the topic-buildup is also welcome.

Topic build-up:
First I will introduce the squad I have: which players are in the team? Which positions do they prefer? Which players are the star-players?
Then I will introduce my tactical preferences and the formations I'm thinking about.

 

The Squad
These are the players I have in my current first team:

Spoiler

 

When I look at all the players I have in my current squad and look at their best positions, it looks like this:

Spoiler

 

These are the key players of the squad, I am planning on building my squad around these players. I am gonna explain my thought-process about the strenghts and weaknesses of the players, please help me by giving feedback on my thoughts:

Spoiler

A Powerful, tall striker who will struggle to create his own chances. This is the type of striker who needs to be fed with crosses, or else he won't score. (Am I right with this or is there more to say about De Jong?)

I think Pereiro could be a very special player: he is very creative and unpredictable. He lacks some speed and work rate, so I am I'm not sure he can really develop into a class-player. (Am I right with this or is there more to say about Pereiro?)

This is a very creative midfielder who also works hard. He is very alround and only lacks some defensive capabilities. Is it a problem he lacks defensive capabilities?

Guardado is a great player, very much like propper (creative and lacks defensive capabilities). Am I seeing this correct?

Hendrix is a very good defensive playmaker, but would really benefit from developing his defensive capabilities. Is he lacking defensive skills for his position?

Willems is a fantastic attacking-leftback, but he lacks workrate and some other mentals in order to really become worldclass. Is he a liability in defense?

Hector moreno is rocksolid, nothing more to say except he is my best defender and I can't think about a downside except that he maybe lacks some speed. Am I seeing this correctly?

 

Questions about the squad:

1. Have I analysed the strenghts and weaknesses correctly from the star-players? Or am I missing some vital points which could help me utilise the players to their best potential? 
2. How can I utilise the star-players I mentioned above into a fitting tactic and formation?
3. What kind of players do I need to place in the squad to complement these star-players?

 

Tactical thoughts
When I think about the tactic I want to play, there are a few concepts that come to my mind:
- I like to play from the back, don't hoof the ball forwards
- I like quick, lightning counterattacks if the space is available for it
- I like defensive stability (I prefer a 1-0 win over a 2-1 win all the time)
- I disgust unnecessary mistakes which lead to us losing the ball

Questions:

1. How can I translate these concepts into a successful tactic? (mentality; team shape; team instructions)

Possible formations

Ofcourse I've already tweaked a bit myself with the squad. My tweaking let to 3 possible formations:

Spoiler

This lob-sided 4-1-2-2-1 is a formation I'm thinking about. I really like defensive stability but I am unsure about the stability of this formation. And what about the attack? Is the attack complementing the players?

This 4-2-1-2-1 is a formation I'm thinking about with 2 dm's, because non of my midfielders are really strong in defence. The thought process is: without strong dm's, maybe I can secure defensive stability by placing 2 dm's. But isn't this tactic a bit to negative for a title contender? 

This 4-3-1-2 is a formation I've had success with in LLM. It's something I am a bit familiar with and therefore I'm not sure I want to use it again. 

 

 

Can you guys help me make these players fit into my tactical thoughts and help me create a succesful tactic + formation?

I would love to adapt the advices I'll get in this topic into matches and keep you posted about the steps I'll make, including to upload some matches I play with practical questions about the tactics et cetera. 

[VV Bal op de Lat]

Side note: I've posted 3 formations in the first post. But I don't necessarily WANT to use those tactics. If you guys have better ideas about possible good formations for this PSV squad, please tell me. The reason I posted the 3 formations is because I want to learn, and I think I learn best when I'm not only asking questions but also try to shape some things myself. But I'm very unsure about the posted formations, so all your suggestions are very welcome...

[VinceLombardi]

Just looking at the 3 midfielders you posted, I see 3 guys who are all really good on the ball, but lack the defensive abilities to play a "balanced" midfield role.

I would look to either play all 3 in atacking type roles/positions, most likely in the AMC strata or sell one or two. But if you keep these guys, then I expect you may want to sell one of the wingers.

I think you could have a potent 4-2-3-1 Narrow. Even an interesting 4-1-4-1 where the 4 midfielders all play on the attacking strata with an asymmetrical winger on one side or the other. Or alternatively both wingers with 2 AMC and the 3rd as a potential super sub. 

I wouldn't be totally committed to your striker needing crosses. Sure he will play them well, but he should also do well shooting the ball at his feet, providing he doesn't have to do too much to create the opportunity. With 3 or 4 players in the AM strata, you should be able to give him that creative player behind him to put home the goal.

Personally, I really like the idea of setting up 4 formations. 4-1-0-4-1 with an asymmetrical winger on each the right and left, a 4-1-0-4-1 with both wingers and 2 AMC and a 4-2-3-1 Narrow with no wingers. All four could be more possession based with an emphasis on moving the ball with the attacking midfielders and setting up the striker for a goal. 

But take it all with a grain of salt. I know nothing about these players or this team, and I am just basing that on the screen shoots you took and the player you identified as special on the roster.

[VV Bal op de Lat]

Thanks for your reply mate, appreciate it very much!

12 hours ago, VinceLombardi said:

Just looking at the 3 midfielders you posted, I see 3 guys who are all really good on the ball, but lack the defensive abilities to play a "balanced" midfield role.

I would look to either play all 3 in atacking type roles/positions, most likely in the AMC strata or sell one or two. But if you keep these guys, then I expect you may want to sell one of the wingers.

I guess you are totally right with this. Did you also think about Hendrix as a midfielder who lacks defensive abilities and should be used as an amc? I don't have many out and out wingers btw, only Guardado but I don't really want to use him as a Winger. Bergwijn is a promising inside forward who I'll give playtime from time to time to develop him into a star-player.

 

12 hours ago, VinceLombardi said:

I think you could have a potent 4-2-3-1 Narrow. Even an interesting 4-1-4-1 where the 4 midfielders all play on the attacking strata with an asymmetrical winger on one side or the other. Or alternatively both wingers with 2 AMC and the 3rd as a potential super sub. 

I wouldn't be totally committed to your striker needing crosses. Sure he will play them well, but he should also do well shooting the ball at his feet, providing he doesn't have to do too much to create the opportunity. With 3 or 4 players in the AM strata, you should be able to give him that creative player behind him to put home the goal.

Personally, I really like the idea of setting up 4 formations. 4-1-0-4-1 with an asymmetrical winger on each the right and left, a 4-1-0-4-1 with both wingers and 2 AMC and a 4-2-3-1 Narrow with no wingers. All four could be more possession based with an emphasis on moving the ball with the attacking midfielders and setting up the striker for a goal. 

But take it all with a grain of salt. I know nothing about these players or this team, and I am just basing that on the screen shoots you took and the player you identified as special on the roster.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll tweak around a bit and see what fits and feels best. I guess I'll need to hunt for defensive stable midfielders in the transferwindow. 

 

 

[jorgvandervloed]

Just as in real-life, PSV is in a transition year. If you make the right decisions this season, your squad will be really good the next year. And the other way around -  look at how they started the season  

The three players I would have a look at are Willems, Hendrix, and Bergwijn for the upcoming years. Willems will be one of the best left-backs in the game, Hendrix will be a very-solid CM, and Bergwijn could develop into a world-class IF or W. I would build my team around them and look for talented players as Rigo, Piroe, and Obispo/Carolina in the PSV youth-system. 

I would develop my tactic based on these players!

Keep Guardado around for tutoring purposes! Yes, he is still one of the best players in the squad but also becoming a little older. He can play almost any position so can tutor almost any player as well. My recommendation: start with tutoring Pereiro. If you can get his determination up, he could become a world-class playmaker as he still has room to improve drastically and already has all the right attributes. 

Good luck!

[VV Bal op de Lat]

4 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

Just as in real-life, PSV is in a transition year. If you make the right decisions this season, your squad will be really good the next year. And the other way around -  look at how they started the season  

Yeah, it's an unbalanced squad I guess: almost no wingers, no defensive stability in midfield. I hope I'll make the right decisions 🙂

 

4 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

The three players I would have a look at are Willems, Hendrix, and Bergwijn for the upcoming years. Willems will be one of the best left-backs in the game, Hendrix will be a very-solid CM, and Bergwijn could develop into a world-class IF or W. I would build my team around them and look for talented players as Rigo, Piroe, and Obispo/Carolina in the PSV youth-system. 

I would develop my tactic based on these players!

Tnx for the advice! I would really like to keep those three players. Bergwijn won't be difficult to keep as he is still very young. But I'm not sure I will be able to keep Hendrix and Willems around because there will be coming transferbids very soon and I am affraid they won't accept me to decline the bids. Would you decline them at all cost, even when players get upset about it?

4 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

Keep Guardado around for tutoring purposes! Yes, he is still one of the best players in the squad but also becoming a little older. He can play almost any position so can tutor almost any player as well. My recommendation: start with tutoring Pereiro. If you can get his determination up, he could become a world-class playmaker as he still has room to improve drastically and already has all the right attributes. 

Good luck!

This makes sence indeed. I was planning on selling Guardado when a good transferoffer is made because of his age and high salary. This would be a good moment to sell. But you make a valid point, I'll start tutoring Pereiro right away and think about keeping guardado around. 

I'm not sure how I can keep all the quality players around at the club, because in my experience they get easily annoyed when you decline a transferbid. We'll see how it goes.

 

I'm planning on an update when I've played my first official match, hopefully you guys can help me with the analysis of the match so I can improve my tactic.

[VV Bal op de Lat]

After contracting this absolute beast on a free for some defensive stability.....

 

Spoiler

 

... I played my first official match. The Dutch Super cup, against Feyenoord. This was my tactic and players:

Spoiler

 

The game ended in a win for me and Feyenoord was complete toothless in attack, which I'm very happy about. I guess they didn't come to attack me with a very defensive 4-5-1, which helped me neutralize their attacks. They had many totally harmless crosses and not 1 big chance. 
Looking at my own squad in attack, there are some thoughts I want to point out:

- Propper, Guardado and de Jong didn't move very much until the moment they had the ball. They want the ball to the feet. I think that this causes my attack to have a lack of movement. There were some moments in the match where I felt my attack could've be more dangerous when there would be more movement from the players.  (subbing Guardado off for Ramselaar seemed to have a positive influence on the movement in attack). 
- Arias and Willems had much space in front of him. Whereas Willems played a strong match and loves to use the space in front of him, Arias looked a bit lost to me. He gave many long crosses without any succes. 
- My team played the long ball on de Jong a few times. That's logical because I played de Jong as a targetman. It's his quality to link up the play that way. But I felt we gave the long ball a little bit to quick sometimes because de Jong was isolated a lot of times and then the long ball was a instant loss of the ball. 

If you guys would like to see some other screenshots about match statistics and what so ever, please ask and I'll give them. 

I've also upload the match. Would you guys like to watch the match and see what you think of it? Where can my team improve? How can I try to improve? Are my thoughts about the match correct?

PSV Eindhoven v Feyenoord.pkm

[VV Bal op de Lat]

A shameless little kick 

[TheJanitor]

Well written. Haven't played a game in weeks and this kinda inspired me to start one with PSV, so I'm with you on this.

About your points:

- How much movement do you expect from your attack? Guardado, Propper and De Jong aren't very mobile, and the latter two roles doesn't encourage mobility. Probably why you saw improvement when Ramselaar was introduced. I played similar tactic at Dortmund with Aubameyang as AF and it was great. Sadly none of PSV seems to have pace, so you'd have to accept that for now, the attack abit clunky. I think if you find a way to incorporate Bergwijn into the side you'd have a better attack just because of the speed and movement he will inject.

- Williams is just much better at attacking, can't really expect similar output from Arias. His defensive attributes are really bad though. Might not be an issue against the weaker sides but did a side like Feyenoord caused you some trouble through your left flank?

- Interesting about the isolation part...between your AMLR being forward from the start and your AMC not making frequent runs, maybe you lack support from deep? I'd be tempted to play a BBM instead of DM/s.

[VV Bal op de Lat]

5 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Well written. Haven't played a game in weeks and this kinda inspired me to start one with PSV, so I'm with you on this.

Thanks! It's really encouraging for me to read this  

 

5 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

- How much movement do you expect from your attack? Guardado, Propper and De Jong aren't very mobile, and the latter two roles doesn't encourage mobility. Probably why you saw improvement when Ramselaar was introduced. I played similar tactic at Dortmund with Aubameyang as AF and it was great. Sadly none of PSV seems to have pace, so you'd have to accept that for now, the attack abit clunky. I think if you find a way to incorporate Bergwijn into the side you'd have a better attack just because of the speed and movement he will inject.

I expected Guardado to move a lot more then he actually does. But then again, he has a discouraging ppm for movement I guess (Comes deep to get ball). I'm tempted to choose Ramselaar over Guardado because of his movement, if it wasn't that Guardado is one of my quality players. 

I'm gonna watch and see Bergwijn's quality's to fill in the AM or striker role at some point cause I really think the point you are making is valid: the attack lacks some pace. 

 

5 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

- Williams is just much better at attacking, can't really expect similar output from Arias. His defensive attributes are really bad though. Might not be an issue against the weaker sides but did a side like Feyenoord caused you some trouble through your left flank?

Yeah, much of the (unconcerning) crosses were from my left side. But I'll take it for now because Willems is such a strong attacking force. 

 

5 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

- Interesting about the isolation part...between your AMLR being forward from the start and your AMC not making frequent runs, maybe you lack support from deep? I'd be tempted to play a BBM instead of DM/s.

I'm gonna watch this closely. I'm not a big fan of pushing one midfielder up because I would like my team to stay balanced and I already have 4 very attack-minded positions. We'll see how it goes.

[felipencntst]

@VV Bal op de Lat, I'm not used to play this formation, but here's something I thought: PSV is one of the strongest teams in Netherlands, if not the best, so maybe other teams will not concede too much space in the middle. Is it possible to work a more wide formation? 

You said Willems bombed forward as there was space, so why don't you open your team a bit and stretch the opposition? I guess Guardado can play IF and, as Arias is not bombing forward quick enough, you use somebody as Winger on the right.

You can go the whole way and make your center more mobile, I don't know, CF-S and SS-A maybe.

Just some food for thought, teams are not giving you space, you have to create it. Maybe that's why your AMC trio weren't moving enough.

[jorgvandervloed]

On 10-8-2017 at 21:05, VV Bal op de Lat said:

- Propper, Guardado and de Jong didn't move very much until the moment they had the ball. They want the ball to the feet. I think that this causes my attack to have a lack of movement. There were some moments in the match where I felt my attack could've be more dangerous when there would be more movement from the players.  (subbing Guardado off for Ramselaar seemed to have a positive influence on the movement in attack). 

- My team played the long ball on de Jong a few times. That's logical because I played de Jong as a targetman. It's his quality to link up the play that way. But I felt we gave the long ball a little bit to quick sometimes because de Jong was isolated a lot of times and then the long ball was a instant loss of the ball. 

You're using very static roles to begin with! The only role that will create a bit more movement is the Shadow-striker. AP (S) has hold position, TM is very static, AM will make mostly forward runs but no one creates space for him, and the SS is basically an AM on steroids so there goes the same. 

Instead of a Targetman, you could use a DLF. He will be a lot more mobile and basically does the same thing and the game isn't hard-coded to hit long-balls to this role. 

 

[VV Bal op de Lat]

21 hours ago, felipencntst said:

@VV Bal op de Lat, I'm not used to play this formation, but here's something I thought: PSV is one of the strongest teams in Netherlands, if not the best, so maybe other teams will not concede too much space in the middle. Is it possible to work a more wide formation? 

You said Willems bombed forward as there was space, so why don't you open your team a bit and stretch the opposition? I guess Guardado can play IF and, as Arias is not bombing forward quick enough, you use somebody as Winger on the right.

You can go the whole way and make your center more mobile, I don't know, CF-S and SS-A maybe.

Just some food for thought, teams are not giving you space, you have to create it. Maybe that's why your AMC trio weren't moving enough.

You are probably right: I'm a bit clogging the centre and playing my opponents in their cards, but the centre is also where my strong players can play at their best. Except Guardado and Bergwijn I don't have good options for the flanks. That's why I'm tempted to keep on trying a narrow 4231 for this moment. But I will try a different striker role because of the hopefully improved movement and I'll keep in mind the importance of stretching my opponent.

8 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

You're using very static roles to begin with! The only role that will create a bit more movement is the Shadow-striker. AP (S) has hold position, TM is very static, AM will make mostly forward runs but no one creates space for him, and the SS is basically an AM on steroids so there goes the same. 

Instead of a Targetman, you could use a DLF. He will be a lot more mobile and basically does the same thing and the game isn't hard-coded to hit long-balls to this role. 

 

Good call, I'll try and see what a DLF instead of a TM does to the tactic. Also thinking about playing the striker as a CF(s), but that's another option for the future maybe. Tnx for your feedback!

[VV Bal op de Lat]

I've played 2 matches with a dlf instead of a tm: 4-1 win and 0-0 draw. 

In the match we won there was more movement from the striker, but not necessarily from the amc's. Defensive wr are stable, but in attack still a bit toothless. Could changing my mentality to control help? What do yoy think is the best way to keep my defensive stability but also increase my attack a bit more?

[felipencntst]

@VV Bal op de Lat as your team is top heavy (it means there are more players forward than, say, a 4-4-2), I would suggest a control/structured.

Control means your team is more wide and urgent, structured will help your defensive and mid stratas to not over-reach and leave you open in the back.

However, keep an eye if your team is not too urgent and unidimensional and easy to defend, balance it with support roles.

 

[VV Bal op de Lat]

Tnx for your suggestion @felipencntst 

I applied them both (structured and control), but didn't notice a real difference. Had an okay game against fc Groningen but didn't finish some small chances and lost due to a cross that went straight in in the 87th minute or something like that, of course.  (But Groningen became stronger in the second half so maybe they deserved a goal... Feels very unfair to loose this way however).

I've uploaded the match again because I don't know what to do to score some goals and create more quality chances. Halfway the match I turned on "look for overlap" to make more use of my backs, but that didn't do anything good I guess. Does anybody know how I can get this team up and running a bit better?

FC Groningen v PSV Eindhoven.pkm

[VV Bal op de Lat]

After some disappointing results I had the idea to change some of the roles in my attack. This is how my tactic now looks:

Spoiler

Team shape: structured; Mentality: control.

I've given the 2 am(s) some pi's to make them look like ap(s), but without the ball-magnet and without hold position. Also I made the Am(at) look like a SS but without the dribbling because I want him to move instead of dribble. The DLF has dribble less to make him.. erm... dribble less..  

 

I had a nice win over Sparta with 2 field goals with some patterns I would like to see more often, some good movements. Definitely something to build on I guess. Maybe I should push up my midfield in order to have more support for the am(s) roles, because sometimes they lack some passing options I guess. 
But all in all I'm happy with the changes I made for now. 
 

If you guys would like to give me some extra feedback: here's the pkm of the match against Sparta. 

Sparta Rotterdam v PSV Eindhoven.pkm

 

 

[jorgvandervloed]

Just trying to figure out how I would set things up myself; using your formation. I know you said that you want De Jong to drop deep and hold up the ball as a Targetman, but don't you think the overall tactic would benefit from more of real goal-scorer as a striker-role? Think in the lines of AF or poacher? 

Absolutely no idea of this would work as I haven't tried it myself. 

                             AF (A)

           AP (S)   -   AM (S)   -   SS (A)

 

                  DM (D)   -   DM (S)

WB (A)   -   CD (D)   -   CD (D)   -   WB (S)

 

 

[VV Bal op de Lat]

3 hours ago, jorgvandervloed said:

Just trying to figure out how I would set things up myself; using your formation. I know you said that you want De Jong to drop deep and hold up the ball as a Targetman, but don't you think the overall tactic would benefit from more of real goal-scorer as a striker-role? Think in the lines of AF or poacher? 

Absolutely no idea of this would work as I haven't tried it myself. 

                             AF (A)

           AP (S)   -   AM (S)   -   SS (A)

 

                  DM (D)   -   DM (S)

WB (A)   -   CD (D)   -   CD (D)   -   WB (S)

 

 

Tnx for the suggestion! Just to clarify: I never said that de Jong must come deep. I just wanted him to play in a suitable role for his capabilities. I don't mind playing him as an AF and have been thinking about that myself, but haven't tried it.

How do you think about his speed? Isn't de Jong a bit too slow for an AF role?

[jorgvandervloed]

35 minutes ago, VV Bal op de Lat said:

Tnx for the suggestion! Just to clarify: I never said that de Jong must come deep. I just wanted him to play in a suitable role for his capabilities. I don't mind playing him as an AF and have been thinking about that myself, but haven't tried it.

How do you think about his speed? Isn't de Jong a bit too slow for an AF role?

I'm playing as PSV myself at the moment and I was mainly concerned with his dribble ability. All the other stats for the role are very good I believe, besides maybe speed. Although he isn't necessarily slow in my opinion. 

To be honest, I play locadia as I need a forward that is a bit more mobile in my tactic. I'm trying to sel off De Jong, but no one seems to be interested in this dude unfortunately... He will for sure score goals though!

Generally, I come up with a tactic and if the player doesn't have the right attributes for the role that's too bad. You can always buy or develop a better one in my opinion. It's about how the roles work together and this could be messed up if you would only play players in their preferred role.