End of season collapse in form - how to address this?

[Guest]

I have now played almost two full seasons of FM2017. At the end of my first season, the form of my entire team collapsed, and I was only barely able to avoid plummeting down the table. The last 8 to 10 matches were total misery, as my team forgot how to score, even against clearly inferior opponents and even at home.

 

I thought that ok, that kind of thing can happen - maybe it was a fluke that didn't have anything to do with the end of the season. However, I am now nearing the end of my second season, and the exact same thing is happening. All of a sudden, the team has stopped performing. The players' form for the past 5 games is stunningly low, from 6.2 to about 6.7, while many had it somewhere around 7.4 to 7.9 earlier in the season.

 

Some things to keep in mind: nobody is fatigued or even jaded. I have two injuries, which is what I generally have at any given point during the season, and my captain is very much available and on the pitch. According to my assistant, the team has forged "an extremely strong understanding" and the players "are willing to die for each other". I have not made any noticeable changes in my tactics. I have not bought or sold anybody who could have disrupted the team (obviously, as this can't be done during springtime).

 

And here's what I think is the main problem: the game gives me no option to address this. There is nothing in the game that suggests the players are nervous, bottling it or whatever. No news items, social media comments or personal information tips suggest that anything is wrong. If I hold a Team Meeting, I have no option to bring up the question of nerves, and if I tell the players that they should toughen up a bit or try to improve, all I get is fierce resistance: they don't think anything is wrong. If I criticize an individual player, which I have now done for two of them, they accept that they haven't played well and promise to improve. But am I really expected to hold individual talks with everyone? Wouldn't it be more sensible to give me the option of addressing the whole squad, as this is clearly a squad problem? This whole business gives me the impression that the game is blatantly unfair, because I am not given 1) any kind of feedback about what's going on, or 2) any reasonable option to remedy the situation.

 

Any and all comments about this are much appreciated.

 

Oh, by the way: because of the disappointing results, morale has gone down a little, from an average of Very Good to an average of Fairly Good. Previously, some were at Superb, but at the moment nobody is. Nobody is worse than Okay, though.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, xzar_monty said:

And here's what I think is the main problem: the game gives me no option to address this. There is nothing in the game that suggests the players are nervous, bottling it or whatever. No news items, social media comments or personal information tips suggest that anything is wrong. 

This isn't true. Have you looked at the Body Language widget? Have you looked at the Assistant Managers Team Talk Feedback? Have you looked at his messages in-match, suggesting a player may be over-confident during warm-ups, etc?

[Guest]

Yes, I have.

 

Body Language changes towards "nervous" or "frustrated" towards the end of a match, when results are not forthcoming. But there appears to be no way to bring this issue up with the players. Or if there is, I would like to know about it.

 

Team Talk Feedback shows that after my pre-match talk, many players "appreciate being challenged by the manager". After the half-time talk, after nothing much has happened during the first half, many players are "determined to respond" or "appreciate the critical feedback". So in this area, everything would seem to go *right*, definitely not wrong.

[HUNT3R]

So your issue doesn't seem to be motivation or pressure related.

[David_H1997]

Yeah, I often collapse towards the end of the season too. In my first year, I was top of the league in the Northern Irish 3rd division. I eventually just scraped 2nd on the last day of the season, and went up via the play off match. Second season I was doing well. I think I was around 6th (Out of 12) at Christmas time, doing quite well, then the last few months we picked up just a couple of wins and had to use the play off game (Incidentally against the same team as the previous season) to stay up. Third season, same team. We were in the top 3 all season, we slipped down to 9th. 3 games to go, currently 5th but I think I'll end up 7th. 

I have a feeling it's something to do with the squad personality, depth and training regimes. Maybe they're not the sort of players to keep pushing all season after a good start? Maybe they're tired from playing so many games? Maybe the training needs to be more thought out?

[HUNT3R]

Toward the end of the season, those final few games will have more pressure attached to it, especially if you're in the running for the title etc. It may affect results if you're not handling it well enough as a manager.

[Guest]

@HUNT3R: But the game doesn't tell you anything about there being any pressure. The game also doesn't tell you that there's anything wrong with your managerial skills. That was kind of my point.

 

I accept that there is pressure, and I accept that some will not be able to handle it - especially without help. But it seems odd that this pressure is never mentioned, all you can see is that the team collapses. And you can't really support or chide your players.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, xzar_monty said:

@HUNT3R: But the game doesn't tell you anything about there being any pressure. The game also doesn't tell you that there's anything wrong with your managerial skills. That was kind of my point.

I'm confused. You've already said that the players are NOT feeling the pressure, that they appreciate being challenged etc. And I've already said that in your case, it doesn't seem to be pressure or motivation, for that matter. So the game did tell you.

[Guest]

What are you confused about? According to the game, the players are not feeling the pressure, yes.

 

If it's not pressure or motivation, what is it, then? It is, indeed, possible that my team collapses right at the end of the season for two consecutive years for no particular reason whatsoever, but it does seem unlikely. And the collapse really prompts me to look for a reason behind it.

 

What did the game tell me? I don't think it told me anything, unless the message is "your team just stopped performing for no particular reason". And yes, that can indeed be the correct explanation. This is why I was curious to hear whether other people have seen this, too.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, xzar_monty said:

What are you confused about? According to the game, the players are not feeling the pressure, yes.

 

If it's not pressure or motivation, what is it, then? It is, indeed, possible that my team collapses right at the end of the season for two consecutive years for no particular reason whatsoever, but it does seem unlikely. And the collapse really prompts me to look for a reason behind it.

 

What did the game tell me? I don't think it told me anything, unless the message is "your team just stopped performing for no particular reason". And yes, that can indeed be the correct explanation. This is why I was curious to hear whether other people have seen this, too.

I'm confused by the fact that we seem to be going in circles. You've mentioned that your players don't show signs of feeling the pressure. I've agreed, twice now, that this doesn't seem to be the cause then.

There will be reasons for it. It could be tactical too, but we're not in the tactics forum. I'm trying to cover what else it could be, that's all.

[Guest]

Ok, I understand. And we are equally confused, if that helps.

 

On previous versions, somebody would occasionally "rally the team" towards the end of the season, when the going got tough. I haven't seen this during either of my seasons. Is this still in the game?

[HUNT3R]

Had it my own save a couple of nights ago, so it's still there.

[Wavelberry]

I think it's worth pointing out that a team with some low mentals will be more prone to collapse even with some expert motivation and managing due to their inability to handle the pressure. Sometimes you just gotta roll with it and either look to develop a tougher mentality through signings/tutoring.

[dieu]

It may be that your players has poor temperament, and poor pressure. If both is the case then that could explain why you collapse at the business end of the season.

What is your squad personality?

[Guest]

Squad personality is Highly Ambitious.

 

If the problem is in poor temperament and/or poor pressure, I believe there is practically no way of knowing this, other than perhaps using the editor and checking the hidden stats. Certainly no player reports show lack of temperament or ability to handle pressure.

[dieu]

No you do not have to look at the hidden stats through the editor. You can check their individual personalities and media handeling style in the player information tab.

Here is an overview of what the different styles and personalities mean: http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/players/player-personalities

I always look for players that have either a reserved, unflappable, evasive or level-headed  media handling style because then I know that they have at least average temperament. 

[Spurs08]

8 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Yes, I have.

 

Body Language changes towards "nervous" or "frustrated" towards the end of a match, when results are not forthcoming. But there appears to be no way to bring this issue up with the players. Or if there is, I would like to know about it.

 

Team Talk Feedback shows that after my pre-match talk, many players "appreciate being challenged by the manager". After the half-time talk, after nothing much has happened during the first half, many players are "determined to respond" or "appreciate the critical feedback". So in this area, everything would seem to go *right*, definitely not wrong.

There's one crucial thing you're missing there - the post-match team talk. Going by the responses it sounds like you're being quite critical of the players - if they're already nervous that's not going to help. It's not as though they're refusing to put in the effort and slacking about - they're trying, failing and getting worried about it. If you're being critical in team talks and in press conferences it may well compound that situation. Instead, try to be reassuring, tell them the pressure's off and that you know they can do it etc.

[Guest]

@dieu: Thanks for that! That was new to me.

 

I was able to turn the situation around, much to my relief. Or, to be more precise, the team did it: my captain came around with the classic "rally the team" approach (which, as I now saw, does indeed still exist in the game). The whole team was very much up for it in the next game, and this in turn increased morale, particularly because I won. The rest of the season went just fine, despite a galling loss to ManU in the FA Cup final.

 

@Spurs08: What you say about post-match is quite true, but I believe I can handle that side of the game pretty well. I was being critical of my players because we were, at that time, struggling at home against clearly inferior opponents. I will not expect them to beat Barcelona away (random example), and I will indeed support them in the way you suggest.

 

In fact, when I'm bringing on new youth prospects into my team, subbing them on at 60 minutes or so when I'm doing comfortably in a match, I always say I believe "there's much more to come and I completely believe you've got what it takes". Nearly everybody responds well to this, and eventually I become one of their favorite personnel.

 

The only really difficult player personality is the macho. The guy who thinks he hasn't done all that well when you praise him for a 9.5 performance.

[Wavelberry]

The good thing about the personalities in the game is that their is no one-size fits all approach so you can't just praise players who get 8.5 all the time and get a boost from it just like some players won't get fired up when you tell them they're crap after a 5.8.

You (not you specifically I mean it generally) do have to see it as managing different personalities and as a manager you have two choices. One is to make note of players that don't respond your chosen style of man-management and talking and then drop them/ship them out for players that react better or if the player is too valuable to your team and doesn't react to your general man-management style then change it for them. If Macho guy doesn't like being praised then don't praise him. If a guy on a poor run of form never reacts well to criticism then don't chat to him and just drop him to the bench for a couple of matches. 

There is a tendency to see teamtalks and individual chats and team meetings as mini-games with one clear right way and other ways that are less effective and as a player if you're going to get away from that you need to start thinking about your players as actual individuals. One of the things that FM does do really well is the different personality types and they do make it feel like you're managing a bunch of individuals rather than one big homogeneous robotic mass. This is a feather in the game's cap IMHO.