Tactics on and off the ball.

[ddidiodion]

I was wondering how anyone has managed to develop this.

Basically I've been trying to get this to work for a while, but I'd long since given up, but after seeing Barca's exploits with this I decided to ask for advice.

I want my team to play a high defencive line when we dont have the ball, playing very narrow, squashing all the play into the middle third and setting my players to close down a lot with reasonably tough tackling. This should allow me to stop the other team maintaining much possesion and quickly getting the ball back.

However when my team gets the ball, I want the defence to drop back to the edge of the box, and the wide players to move out and maximize the space which we have to play the ball in.

So in essence I want the pitch to be as big as possible when we have the ball, and force the team to pass well in a confined space when we dont.

However after playing with defencive line, mentality, individual instructions, I just cant get the team to replicate this. it seems either you play a high line all the time, or you play deep, has anyone discovered a way of making the game replicate what I have described?

[ddidiodion]

thanks for all the feedback people

[WelshWolf]

Patience is a virtue... or so im told.

This is something that i have also thought about regularly, as in real life you see teams contract when they defend and expand when they attack.

Unfortuantely i have little tactical ability when it comes to this game, but from my little experience it is impossible. Which is a shame, 'cause i quite like the idea.

[ddidiodion]

Yeah, I think it's essential for FM10 that they have in possesion and out of possesion instructions, at least for teams, if not players.

[Zebedee77]

See my thread on lateral movement. The idea of controlling space in defence and expanding on the attack comes from Michels' 'total football' and further refined by Sacchi. Without the lateral movement, this is impossible to set up to cover both sides of the pitch properly right now.

[ddidiodion]

do you have a link?

[Zebedee77]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=106712

A couple of people put forward some ideas, but testing last night resulted in no joy. Part of the 'off the ball' instructions kick in as part of the match engine it would seem, however what we want is something more extreme and that can't be replicated right now.

[ddidiodion]

Yup, I'm thinking its crucial that the next game has "simple" tactics which are effective, for people who dont like messing about it. But also another screen for the tactical buff's of us out there who want to get the team playing exactly how we like.

[fdawsoniv]

Sorry to read it isn't really possible as I had this question myself after watching the CL Final. So you have to make a decision whether you want tightened defense or wide open play when in possession?

Would it work to have a formation that is tightly spaced in the back and spread out up front? It's not quite right, though, and where do you put the width setting?

[ddidiodion]

Thats the porlbem, it only works as part of a package, getting one aspect not the other results in either a very weak defence that cant keep the ball or a very fustrated attack.

Long story short, it's not possible.

[Motcha]

I have been thinking about this too

It is totally possible, I am working on it right now... The results are good however the performances could be better, I am closer to Sacchi than Guardiola.

The thing about pressing game or total football is that there is no such thing as attack and defense; defense is attack and attack is defense. You also must take into consideration that 'total football' will apply differently depending on the players you have. Sacchi played 3-4-3, Rafa 4-4-1-1 and Guardiola 4-3-3. So first, let me know which team you'll play with then we can discuss which formation is the most suitable and what players roles will be set to achieve what you want.

[TOUGHGUY]

I have been thinking about this too

It is totally possible, I am working on it right now... The results are good however the performances could be better, I am closer to Sacchi than Guardiola.

The thing about pressing game or total football is that there is no such thing as attack and defense; defense is attack and attack is defense. You also must take into consideration that 'total football' will apply differently depending on the players you have. Sacchi played 3-4-3, Rafa 4-4-1-1 and Guardiola 4-3-3. So first, let me know which team you'll play with then we can discuss which formation is the most suitable and what players roles will be set to achieve what you want.

There is no need to go into details. Just describe in general how 'totally possible' it is right now in FM09 to have a team behaving in two vastly different ways like the OP described? Pretty please.

[footynut]

I was wondering how anyone has managed to develop this.

Basically I've been trying to get this to work for a while, but I'd long since given up, but after seeing Barca's exploits with this I decided to ask for advice.

I want my team to play a high defencive line when we dont have the ball, playing very narrow, squashing all the play into the middle third and setting my players to close down a lot with reasonably tough tackling. This should allow me to stop the other team maintaining much possesion and quickly getting the ball back.

However when my team gets the ball, I want the defence to drop back to the edge of the box, and the wide players to move out and maximize the space which we have to play the ball in.

So in essence I want the pitch to be as big as possible when we have the ball, and force the team to pass well in a confined space when we dont.

However after playing with defencive line, mentality, individual instructions, I just cant get the team to replicate this. it seems either you play a high line all the time, or you play deep, has anyone discovered a way of making the game replicate what I have described?

Not a tactic that would work in FM or real life as if your defence dropped back to your own penalty area when you won the ball, they would be detatched from your midfield being way too deep. Then when you lost the ball what are you expecting? That your defence rush up to the half way line from the edge of your penalty area, as that is what you are saying.

[J.W.]

is it possible that the players do this automatically? because if there was an option of in-possession width and out-of-possession width, everyone woud use narrow off the ball and wide on the ball because it would work, so maybe the players just have to do this automatically?

[Motcha]

sure, I'll describe how I do it with Liverpool but you must realize that it changes from one team to another. The idea of playing like Barca is to apply a pressing system high up the pitch when off the ball. To do this you'll need to be compact, have players with high workrate and players who have good understanding.

It's counter intuitive may be but you don't touch the closing down panel in the team instruction at all.

First you want to play a high line, so defense will be close to attack achieving compactness. Then set the team to play offside so that defenders will push up when defending making the team more compact. also set the team to zonal marking.

Next thing is the closing down, you have to do this for each player. and it is up to you how much each player should close down. You experiment with it until you find the team is not pulled out of position. This is how I do it:

gk: high own area (so that he can cover balls in behind defensive line)

cb: own area, because you don't want your CB 2 be dragged out of position.

fb: slightly higher own area than the cb, for the same reason

mcd: this guy becomes the equivalent to an attacking midfielder when in defense, he moves freely to close down players all over the pitch and regain the ball. Barce don't have that type of player and that is why they wanted Mascherano.

mca: you want that guy to close down his own area so that he stays relatively in a forward position, this enables him to be one of the first players to counter.

w: I set them to a high own half so that they close down high up the pitch, and retreat to support the full backs down the flanks near defensive penalty area.

sc: I set one to close down all over so that he harasses the defense and another to his own area. the Idea is that the 1st striker wins the ball while the second stiker remains in a good position to receive and have real scoring chance.

The final part is mentality, the higher the mentality the higher a player's defensive zone up the pitch.

And my attacking play is a simple get the ball to the wings and cross, I attack with 8 player and defend with 8 as well. That's the general principal.

[TOUGHGUY]

So you basically play high line and offside. Well that is nice. But how exactly does this achieve what the OP mentioned? The defense pushing back deep towards its own area when your attackers get possession. Unless I missed something – it doesn't.

[Motcha]

No you didn't, but since I didn't go into detail I failed to point out that Barca and Milan stretch the game out in attack through width, not length. Using this tactic you will find that a winger is always free on the edge of the area. just try to implement it, it is not a magical tactic it takes time to achieve

[googoo56]

Very good OP there.

There is a need for ME and tactical improvement for the next game. In the current one, however, you cannot do such things

[kolobok]

Tell me please, when did you see Barca defense dropping back? The central defs do not support attack too much, but that does not mean they drop back. Barca creates space as their players constantly move, swap positions; the FBs support attacks actively; but most importantly - Xavi and Iniesta both have a great vision and ability to dictate attack tempo and direction. Add here Messi, who can create something out of nothing.

Translating it to FM I would suggest playing reasonably wide, short, high creative freedom for MCs and Wingers (obviously, they should be good), high defensive line, offside, higher closing down upfield, FWR often for FBs. However, the most important part is to have a very well gelled team with great teamwork stats (except maybe for wingers), similar personality and no huge difference in salaries.

[kolobok]

Tell me please, when did you see Barca defense dropping back? The central defs do not support attack too much, but that does not mean they drop back. Barca creates space as their players constantly move, swap positions; the FBs support attacks actively; but most importantly - Xavi and Iniesta both have a great vision and ability to dictate attack tempo and direction. Add here Messi, who can create something out of nothing.

Translating it to FM I would suggest playing reasonably wide, short, high creative freedom for MCs and Wingers (obviously, they should be good), high defensive line, offside, higher closing down upfield, FWR often for FBs. However, the most important part is to have a very well gelled team with great teamwork stats (except maybe for wingers), similar personality and no huge difference in salaries.