thejay
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Posts posted by thejay
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vor 32 Minuten schrieb badgerwhacker:
I'm in the exact same situation. Winning most games so it's not a whinge over not being successful but, like you, I'm bored to tears. I've actually turned it off now and I won't be back until the winter patch to see if there's any difference.
Currently it feels like tactics are irrelevant. I can't stop the better teams and I don't create a lot or see evidence of a style against the lesser teams. I've always been pretty good tactically and in getting players to play above their levels through tactics but it just feels that it's not possible in this ME.
I've played wide formations, I've played narrow formations. Neither of which have created evidence of a style.
It's the same for me, winning nearly all games because of set pieces and crosses , also all goals I concede are set pieces or from crosses.
Absolutely boring, I am done, I don't expect it to change much because the issues seem much deeper than what patches can do
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vor 7 Minuten schrieb sidslayer:
I’m sure we’ve been here before, but again, in trying to help with the boredom, have you considered changing your tactic up a bit?
If you don’t care about winning or losing and would prefer to see the ME play in a different way I’ve found trying different styles of play, different formations and different tactics can help the issues you’re seeing.
I’m not looking for a fight. It’s just a suggestion.
Well I suggested to you to post your tactics which make a playstyle possible which you claim but we know how that ended.
Regardless of how I want to play the issue is with the type of goals I score or concede.
Every way of playing has an advantage or disadvantage, what's most boring is that I don't concede because of my tactics disadvantage and I don't score from my tactics advantage.
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For me this game is a boring cross and set piece simulator, every goal i score comes after a set piece or a floating cross, every goal i concede as well.
Which makes no real sense, i play a high defensive line and pressing and dont defend narrow but I dont concede on the counter as one would expect, the goals i concede are never counters where my high press gets exploited.
Its always a floating cross or a set piece, its so incredible dull and boring. I really dont even care if i win or lose, Its not about having success at all, I am joint leading the league with Betis but I just dont care at all.
What exactly is my input in this game? I dont know , its not tactics or how goals are scored.
Like others have written here I though the lack of attacking variety was down to the ai defending narrow and deep but this makes no sense because i dont defender like that and still only concede after set pieces and crosses.
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vor 10 Stunden schrieb Experienced Defender:
One more suggestion - do not use too aggressive defensive (out-of-possession) instructions, because that's not going to make you defensively solid. Quite to the contrary - such aggressive manner of defending is much more likely to compromise your defensive shape and stability (especially if you are not a top team).
This is not true at all, there is almost no penalty in the match engine on the latest patch playing the most aggressive pressing style possible, the ai cant counter that effectively .
In my experience you become less defensibly solid with more reasonable pressing
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Gerade eben schrieb sidslayer:
Well I'm enjoying lots of possession, and i'm attacking and I'm scoring a variety of goals. I'm also ignoring all the tactical guides the game gives me.
Now how is this possible?
I dont know, you show me ,post a link to your tactics
Just remember the descriptions to know what i mean with possession football
So one of these which means not the majority of goals scored via quick transitions, crosses or set pieces, but by controlling the ball in the opponents half , passing and movement which drags the opponent out of position
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vor 6 Minuten schrieb sidslayer:
and this is THE major problem with the ME. Not the engine. The bloody guides ...
no its not at all
please dont claim something which is just not true, this is not about the guides but what the me is actually capable to represent .
Again I just used the examples of the description to highlight that such of way of playing should be possible in the game but it just isnt right now
But this hypothetical discussion can be made factually very quickly very simply , If you claim you have achieved such a style with counter intuitive instructions , thus proving only the descriptions are wrong, just post your tactics so we can test accordingly .
If thats the wrong thread just post a link to the tactic forum where you posted the tactic, very simple
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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Welshace:
Their point is that your possession based tactic is clearly not a possession based tactic based upon what you've told them... just because you clicked possession based tactic in the pre sets, doesn't mean your team will suit and follow that up with how you want to play.. you may have to customise your tactic to suit, for it to play how you want it too
I am not sure where you get the impression from i just selected a standard tactic ? I just used it as an example that this way of playing is advertised as part of the game and not some obscure thing only a few people actually want or think about.
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vor 5 Minuten schrieb sidslayer:
This is my point further up in the thread. The pre set decriptions are a guide that quite frankly are misleading. Create a custom tactic if you want to play possession football. The base pre sets do not completely marry up with what the ME shows you.
The point was about the definition of attacking with possession not whether the set tactics achieve that.
You asked whether possession is just keeping the ball, it is not in this context.
ZitatThis is a prime example of thinking your tactic is built around possession and creativity because the game tells you it is, when in fact the ME is showing you something completely different. Again, i would suggest creating a tactic from scratch.
No I am basing my tactics on what I see during the match but the players dont behave like I want to behave.
If I want to create chances on the counter when the defense isnt set up yet I would play like that and create a tactic accordingly .
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vor 32 Minuten schrieb sidslayer:
Define possession football. My team has most of the ball. Is that not possession?
No its not, just look at the set tactics descriptions what is meant with possession, its all there in the description.
No need to start a fundamental discussion about football concepts, the base concepts are laid out in the game
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vor 3 Stunden schrieb WelshMourinho:
While I agree with you that people have to accept that the match engine has limitations, I think a lack of through balls (in the style of possession football) to be a rather big limitation. Essentially my issue with it boils down to midfielders with "take more risks" hard coded into their game simply not actually taking any sort of risks.
For example, a limitation I've largely grown to accept is cutbacks. Guardiola's City side scored so many goals from getting back post tap ins last season, and that sort of goal is gold dust in FM. That's a rather specific move though, and I can understand why that would be difficult to put into FM.
But an entire play style is a different story for me. I'd like to clarify that I don't think it's impossible to win with this style or anything like that. I agree the match engine isn't broken. You can have a lot of success with any sort of style on this game, as long as your tactic makes sense. My frustration is the match engine often doesn't seem to interpret your instructions well. A team built around creative midfielders playing through balls wont score those types of goals, instead they'll dominate the ball and score via set pieces, or goals that develop from throw ins. The pre patch match engine was like this, even play out of defence didn't stop one of your CBs lumping it forward like prime Jerome Boateng to find a striker through on goal.
The issue, for me at least, isn't that the ME is broken. It's that it doesn't interpret certain styles well atm, and so it makes your tactics feel like a waste of time.
This
It makes no sense, why I am successful because of set pieces or chaos in the box second ball or crosses if my tactics are not for that at all?
It's not about whether I am able to win games or not but how little tactics seem to influence the type of goals which I score.
Whats the point of scouting creative midfielders or technical gifted wingers, strikers with ball playing ability, false nines, deep playmakers, ect. When they don't seem to matter for the type of goals my team scorers.
I am leading the league with my team built around possession and creativity but my goals come from set pieces and crosses.
This takes the fun out of it completely for me.
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vor 10 Stunden schrieb akkm:
yeah I think reasonable stuff there tactically and especially as you say playing cautious lower line of engagement means you'd see as you say you drawing opponent and hitting them on the break with pace and power..that will leave space behind which is essentially what the engine needs to be able to produce more open play goals in a manner which is kind of what you'd expect and like to see with those tactics so it would look normal. That would definitely explain why you're not seeing the issues others are.
I think what @Weller1980 and others are trying style wise is different with attempts to play more controlled slower tempo possession based game where space is more condensed and creating chances and goals is then more reliant on their teams players skills such as vision, technique, passing, movement, off the ball, decisions, agility and all that but that's the real issue. These are underutilised with the engine and the value of them is way too low to determine outcomes in terms of style of play...essentially the match engine isn't currently simulating creativity and the tools to unlock defences is fairly severely lacking and that's why you see so many complaints...all of which are justified...pass decision making isn't executing choices to mirror how things work in real world football...there's too much of a bias towards passes out into large spaces usually out wide or from deep and often when there are better options inside and shorter. Yeah it's harder of course but not as hard as FM depicts it and as said when pass decision making isn't right then it just exacerbates the issue. Complementary movement is then required as pass decision making gets the crucial bump that's needed but pass decision making is the starting point and the fundamental issue which needs a lot of work to enable multiple styles of play to be attempted and subsequently rewarded in the right way...the frustrating thing with attempting to play centrally is the patterns become too repetitive and the chance creation and goals become too disconnected to the inputs tactically and that's because the engine just cannot play that way properly in a consistent or sustainted way. Of course there'll be intermittent moves/goals/chances which are great but they're more anomalous to the overall attempted style which basically deems it pointless to attempt that way of playing. So really a fundamentally significant way of playing is missing from the engine for the last two years so people's frustrations despite SIs best efforts are warranted. It really needs to be addressed asap.
It's great that your way works and you're getting the most out of it and enjoying it but obviously it needs to cater for most and ideally all ways of playing at least to be attempted and then let the relative success be determined by quality of players and use of tactics to get the most out of said players. That way the engines simulation of real world football would be on point
I agree completely but it isn't some obscure style that only some people play.
Half the standard tactics in the tactic creator don't work.
Control possession, tiki taka, vertical tiki taka, you can all throw them in the bin.
Vertical tiki taka is the worst, absolutely impossible to play with a focus through the midfield.
I don't really understand that people claim the game works as advertised when I'd evidently does not, as seem in the ineffectiveness of default tactics.
But maybe they do work but work as in you get set piece goals and second chances to a very high degree for some reason, but they don't work as in the tactics actually creating chances as intended.
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vor 10 Stunden schrieb bcereus:
They made some major change after FM 18 that they are persisting with, this killed center play. They are continuing with what they did and essentially building on top of it.
FM 19/20 have the same issue, if it's rotten at the core, nothing you do to mess with the conversion rates and other minor tweaks will matter. There is a fundamental code base behind the lack of center play and they can't/won't change it back.
If it's the same next year, I'm not going to buy that game, it kills the simulation for me.
The single most important change is the seperate attacking and defending width instructions introduced in fm 19
Yes its realsitic but the me is not advanced enough offensively to be able to pull apart defenses by intelligent movement.
Earlier fms masked this problem because the ai could not play narrow in defense and wider in attack, now he can which results in a very stale attacking part of the game.
I dont think this is fixable in the short run, we probably have to wait until the offensive part gets more developed or si removes the width instructions which they probably won't do.
So see you in FM 2025 or something like that
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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Freakiie:
You shove the opposition all the way into the box and then play a very slow and patient game and wonder why there are no through balls? If it wasn't for, as you pointed out, the AI not handling heavy pressing well and condition in general being completely irrelevant in FM allowing you to press like madman for 90 minutes without issues you'd get overrun on the counter while being insanely easy to defend against because you endlessly ping the ball around.
The point of the passing and patient game is to pull the opponents defense apart and not just cross in , I said nothing about through balls only where the goals are scored from and what happens in reality.
The whole point is that its not possible to pull apart the narrow defenses with passing because the ai is not intelligent enough in terms of offensive movement and making the right passing decisions .
Not everyone wants to play constant counter attack football followed by high pressing .
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So I won 7 straight games with Betis playing an insane all out pressing tactic which the ai cant handle .
All goals i have scored were either long shots , cross or after set pieces , not a single one after a passing combination freed up a player. All the goals I conceded were crosses or standards as well.
Despite that assist locations show through ball as the most frequent assist location , makes no sense at all but it does explain why some people claim they can play with combining through the middle and score goals after combinations .
They cant, i dont think this is possible with this me and the narrow defense instructions
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vor einer Stunde schrieb FMLegend1983:
Honestly you guys will never be happy lol
It was dull boring and negative me before now it's fun entertaining not perfect me you guys still complain I don't think Sigames will ever make you happy!
I dont think you understand what passing football is, not what is shown in your video .
Why the need to acuse other people only because you are satisfied with the game?
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Every chance I create or concede comes from a cross or a standard situation .
Goals are scored by second balls, standards and crosses and also every attack from the opponent is a cross. Its so incredible boring and depressing despite me winning nearly every game .
The ai cant cope with high press attacking tactics at all, too stupid to out-pass the incredible chaotic press , too limited to stretch the narrow defense, its a cross and standard simulator .
Assist locations in the analysis screen are misleading, it somehow counts deflections and second balls in the box as through balls
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I think the me just cant cope with the new narrow defensive instructions which kills chance creation except for crosses and set pieces, to keep the goal numbers realistic lots of set pieces go in.
I played a few matches with the new me and all goals i scored or conceded were after a cross or a set piece , really not fun at all
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vor 12 Stunden schrieb MorrisseyMuse:
This has been the underlying fact of FM for me since arguably its inception, but certainly from FM2008 onwards. The more modern FM's are almost too realistic and in depth and that turns the simplistic joy of rattling through a season in a day or two, into a slow chore of 4-5 matches every day. I feel like I've gained some love for the series back this year, but I can't deny I still see the series as pre and post FM 2008.
You can basically automate the whole game and dont have to do anything by yourself, also there is the simplified touch version also
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Am 20.1.2020 um 21:37 schrieb Weller1980:
I did everything in the tactics screen to encourage central play, direct football and still my players opt to pass the ball sideways. 262 sideways passes. Forward passes totalled 135 with just 3 forward key passes. We need some improvements in the central play, players need to play more forward passes, more risky through balls etc.
How did the other team set up?
When people talking about central play they have to include how the other team plays which most of the time is to defend deep and narrow. How are you going to have central play when the Opposition plays that way? very difficult.
I think the issues is the new defensive instructions which allows teams to defend narrow and deep together with pressing which clogs up the central area.
I dont think the offensive ai is good enough for players to move realistically and find space when the space is tight because even when the opponent defends narrow there are still spaces available which the offensive ai seems unable to exploit
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vor 4 Stunden schrieb bcereus:
So they killed center play to fix the long balls over the top and now the football is back out to the wings with blocked crosses. Also goals from long shots. Essentially FM 19 issues.
I'm not sure there is a balance to be had in the ME anymore, I think it seems like a complicated mess that needs a revamp. It seems to only do extremes where the pattern of play is forced through one area of the pitch.
I wouldn't mind if center play required very high level of technical/movement ability but it's no longer really about the players or your choices. It's just what the ME allows you to do.
the new defensive width instructions essentially gimped the attacking side of the match engine, this is my theory
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vor 35 Minuten schrieb Welshace:
Why do you feel it was a very good thing?
Because people could test the me earlier? More updates more fine tuning ect
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vor 1 Stunde schrieb themadsheep2001:
https://twitter.com/FootballManager follow it, turn on a notification for it and you won't miss a thing
Sorry but I don't see any patch updates in the twitter feed, it does not seem to be used for that
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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Mitja:
what's wrong with that comment?
why not public beta???
Yes why no more public beta? It was a very good thing last year
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I really think the new defensive instructions especially defensive width which was introduced in fm19 fundamentally messed with the match engine and exposed its flaws in the attacking part.
Defending is now more realistic but attacking decsion making from the players can't keep up while this was masked in previous versions with less realistic defending.
I really fell for it when fm20 was advertised with better offensive movement, I really though it was massively improved but I was wrong.
Definitely won't be fooled again and buy the next game at release
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Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted
These are offensive instructions not defensive ones, it makes no sense for them to move narrow while defending.
There is absolutely no instruction which should make the players behave like that on a goal kick