Muja

Yeah, you're right. Attacking mentalities are also good for counter-attacking strategies, and they can help with moving the ball forward with more urgency. In fact, it's not really the low block that's the problem, but if you're not pressing often or very often, you're shooting yourself in the foot. So, basically, they work as they are... as long as you make continuous changes in every match, and based on the opponent, and change the mentality, and press more, etcetera etcetera Here's a tactic made in the catenaccio style. You won't find an identical one online anywhere because I made it, and it's not a meta-tactic because it doesn't guarantee extraordinary results... for starters, it scores very little. If your team is the strongest in the league, you might even win it, scoring little but conceding even less, in true Allegri-style (but you'll need a bit of luck). I'm not claiming it to be perfect but, in any case, it fulfills its only task very well: limiting goals conceded to a minimum. It's one of the tactics I use when I need to defend a lead, with a guaranteed result - within normal limits. It wouldn't cost SI two seconds to include such a tactic among the catenaccio presets. But they don't, and if you look at the instructions, you might understand why. If you watch the matches, it plays exactly as a catenaccio style is supposed to, but In theory, it shouldn't work like that. In many areas it goes against the "dictates of the manual." Putting this tactic in the catenaccio presets would be like saying "hey guys, even the most defensive preset tactic doesn't use one of the defensive mentalities, or "less often trigger press", 'cause they're pretty much useless instructions or even detrimental in this ME". It would be almost like publicly admitting that the ME is unbalanced. I'm sincerely hoping that with the transition to Unity, they will take the opportunity to finally iron out some recurring flaws of the ME, such as the excessive importance given to crosses and wing play and the resulting lack of central play in the final third, and that they will finally provide greater balance so that all tactical styles are more or less usable in a coherent form. But if they are thinking of simply translating all the code as it is into a new language, these problems won't disappear - heck, new ones might appear. Though, if the ME were to become moddable... Oh, I would jump for joy.

Exactly! I've been experimenting A LOT and I've been on the verge of giving up more than once. ... But then I try again

Now you're just making things up. I make my own tactics, thank you very much, and I can make any shape and style work by this point. You probably didn't read a single word of what I wrote. The ONLY reason I started talking about presets is to say that playing with any style and Staying with the example of the "parking the bus" preset, thinking that you can defend a lead with a low block and low pressing is very much wrong, even though the game itself advises it, even if these instructions are in one of the presets that SHOULD help you achieve a clean sheet, and yet it's the preset that makes you concede the most goals of all. My point is that defending with a low block and low pressing SHOULD be the most efficient way to defend, as it is in reality, and yet in the game, it's not. Who said I'm trying to park the bus with Manchester City? I went as far as creating the perfect team for that style with the editor. It still doesn't work. Not with a low block and low pressing. Not as much as it should. If you use those instructions, you're practically giving yourself a handicap. Besides, as many others have said, defending in football is much easier than attacking. It shouldn't be so hard to have the perfect players for defending styles. That's why they test each tactic over 1200 games, to reduce RNG as much as possible. Because there's certainly some random element in the game, there's no denying that. And it's a good thing, of course. Not as they are, though. What I've tried to explain in all my comments so far, perhaps failing miserably, is that it would make MUCH more sense to give new players functional, "finished" presets. Not overpowered, of course, but good enough to allow newcomers to play the way they want right away and learn through an example THAT WORKS, and then adapt it as they see fit. And since it's the most sensible thing to do, and also relatively easy, I think the only reason SI doesn't do it is not to maintain a "sense of challenge", which actually quickly turns into frustration for newbies, but to not reveal their cards and openly declare that, for example, low block and low pressing DON'T WORK in this ME, or at least not as they should. Perhaps this time I've explained myself better?

But all the tests in FM Arena are done with all the players with the same attributes. And they try to isolate other variables as much as possible, by freezing morale, happiness, fitness, and so on. It's not a perfect science, but it's enough to give you a general feeling. And I did my own tests on top of that, testing specific styles with very specific players. I do lots of tests. My real obsession is the number 10 position, still haven't found a way to make it work the way I'd like.

It's "standard" for the very first 10 minutes and then it's catenaccio all the way to the end, whether we score or not lol We basically only score from set pieces and corners. And god, do I hate it

Lol, I know the ins and outs of this game. That's why I can see the flaws in it. If anything, my problem is I overachieve too soon and it gets boring fast. I'm always finding new ways of limiting myself, like letting the DoF take care of the whole transfer business. I just want the game to be better, not easier. You're totally missing the point of why I brought up the presets in the first place. Yeah, I agree. But whether defense is too weak or attack is too strong, it's two faces of the same coin anyway. The ME is unbalanced, it's what I'm saying.

Watch some Allegri. I repeat, I detest that style of play, but saying that it absolutely can't work is simply not true. Just the opposite, if one style works better than all the others no matter what players you have, that's what makes tactics irrelevant. Just use gegenpress and play. Where's the fun in that? I'm sorry, Herne, but that's a contradiction in itself. I absolutely believe that you can edit the presets and make them work, but how is a new player who knows nothing about tactics supposed to that? Wouldn't it be much better if the presets were functional examples of how to use a specific play style? What's the use of examples that don't work? Experienced players know what to change, but new players don't even understand why they don't work. If their purpose is truly to be a starting point, they currently fail miserably.

Yeah, dude, whatever. I've never been one to give more credit to opinions, no matter how illustrious, than to hard cold facts and logic. Just above, you were telling @whatsupdoc that three seasons weren't enough for a test, and now even 1200 matches aren't enough. Not even a million will be enough for you, because you want to believe what you want to believe and keep your head in the sand. Good luck with life. I absolutely agree with you. And yet catenaccio sometimes lets a weaker team grab 1 point, or even 3, against a much stronger team. How many goals would that same weaker team concede if they tried to dominate possession? They'd have zero chance, right? That's the whole point of defensive strategies. That's exactly my point. As they are, they're not consistent at all. More than just italian, I'm a Juventus fan. I hate Allegri and his philosophy to the core, though! And yet, he consistently carries on an entire match like that, more than that, entire SEASONS. If you don't believe me, watch some Juventus matches from this season. But I won't blame you if you fall asleep halfway through the game, because it's truly a disgraceful spectacle. lol

That was exactly my point, I wholeheartedly agree. The discussion has derailed solely onto presets, but my intention has always been to use them to indicate that there is something wrong with the ME.

Lol, dude, whatever you say. Oh, I agree. But also statistically, you'll still concede less. It's not about the games won, it's about the focus of the tactic: defense. Even counter-attacking presets concede more than more offensive presets. It can't be right, can it? What's the whole point of choosing a defensive style if you end up conceding more than if you were gang-ho attacking? Try and use the parking the bus preset when you want to defend a lead in the last 10 minutes, tell me how it goes.

A starting point should be sound. Not perfect, but working. And then it would be the player's task to perfect it. Preset tactics are no starting points, they're just bad examples that do not work. But that's not how it works, you see? A new player will pick a preset, see that it doesn't work, won't understand WHY, won't find any guide INSIDE the game but contradicting info and bad, not working examples (the presets). Then he either is strong-willed enough to try to learn things OUTSIDE the game, on youtube and forums and such, or he simply gives up - and I guess that's what a large chunk of newcomers do. Heck, even older fans, too. Most of my friends have stopped playing FM, and they were just as passionate as me. If that's how it's intended to work, it's simply awful game design. I can't believe that's the case.

What's the point of having it, then? And how's a new player who knows very little about tactics supposed to learn from it, and understand what needs fixing on his own? What does "not finished" even mean? It's just a more gentle way of saying that's a tactic that doesn't accomplish its intended purpose, which is to focus on conceding fewer goals, and it doesn't even serve to teach anything to new players because it's simply an example that doesn't work. Who the heck would teach anything to anyone using only wrong examples? Come on!

True, absolutely true, and I'm among those who's convinced that that style of play is more efficient in modern football, no contest there. And yet we have Allegri who brought Juventus to second place in Serie A while playing catenaccio even against the weaker teams of the league, and I'm not even kidding. It's not impossible.

Come on. What you say is true, of course... If you expect that tactic to win you games. But a defense-oriented preset tactic should still concede less over 90 minutes, heck, over 1200 matches, than a tactic focused on attacking, shouldn't it? Isn't it a no brainer? What about the counter-attacking preset? Still concedes more than possession preset, how does that make sense?

Never said there was. The part you should be looking for is this: "Focusing more on the clean sheet than on possession". I don't expect it to be plug and play, I expect it to be solid in defense, as suggested. But then, among the preset tactics, it's the one that concedes the most goals.

I think that explanation has already been debunked. As I already wrote (you probably missed it), preset tactics are not a starting point, as they don't make for a working framework. And if they give you a wrong example then it's not a "challenge", it's more like deliberately misleading.

I expected a response like that, and I was actually about to anticipate it in the first comment I wrote, but I didn't for the sake of brevity. But here we go: can you tell me why are the preset tactics there in the first place? Isn't it to help newcomers who know little to nothing about tactics? You say they are just a starting point, and that's okay. It's fair that the player should modify them a bit based on the available players. BUT the starting point should constitute at least a functional framework, shouldn't it? Otherwise, isn't it a wrong starting point? What help are you giving the player if the example you provide for building a tactic in a certain style is flawed from the start? That's not a "challenge", it's more like deliberately misleading. Let's follow your example. They give us a preset to park the bus, and one would expect it to be a tactic that concedes very few goals at the cost of creating very little. To be used only when you want to defend a lead, as you said. And then look here: In practice, as it is, "parking the bus" and "catenaccio", the most defense-oriented preset tactics, are the preset tactics that concede the most goals. "They are not meant to be used for 90 minutes," yeah, of course! I understand that, because not even the most defensive tactic can 100% prevent opponents from scoring, and in the long run, you lose the game. But how is it still possible that they concede more goals than the most offensive tactics? They're actually the less efficient option if you want to defend a lead! How are they useful as a starting point, then? What does a player learn from those? Why not show them how a bus-parking tactic, whose goal is to concede as few goals as possible, is properly constructed instead? I'm afraid that's a rhetorical question. To me, there are only three explanations: 1- it's not possible in the current ME 2- it's possible, but not even the game's devs know how to go about it 3- it's possible, but you accomplish it with instructions that in theory don't make sense and seem counterintuitive - so better not show them at all, as they'd break the immersion Personally, I'd go with number three. Spolier: in the current ME the most efficient way to defend a lead is...

I mean, just look at the preset tactics. One would expect, given that the programmers themselves provide these preset tactics, that they have been tested and ensure the ability to quickly use the desired style with at least acceptable success. After all, the preset tactics were created for this very purpose, to cater to newcomers, right? And when you look at them, indeed, they seem sensible in theory, reflecting what all the game manuals tell you. But then... even if you have the right players for them, even if your assistant suggests to use them, THEY DON'T WORK. They are TERRIBLE. They have been tested in FM Arena this year, and they are undoubtedly the tactics with the worst performance. (All except for gegenpress, of course - which isn't really "meta," but still ensures acceptable results, unlike all the others). I wonder, how much would it cost SI to hire just ONE tester whose sole job is to create preset tactics for every style, test them, and ensure they work at least decently (provided you have the right players, of course)? Why don't they do it? I fear that the most obvious answer is the right one: the tactics built following the logic THAT THE GAME ITSELF ADVISES, do not work. And this says plenty about the current state of the ME, doesn't it?

To be honest, all those reviews seem jokingly positive to me. I don't see a trollish attitude at all.

You still fail to understand. It SHOULDN'T be enough to have one of the best teams in the world to win 5 Champions Leagues in a row, and 5 consecutive championships with a lead of more than 10 points over the pursuers, every darn time. You can't tell me that it's "normal." In reality, this is not possible, and it shouldn't be possible in Football Manager, either. Personally, I already impose many limits on myself (such as leaving the entire transfer market in the hands of my Director of Football) and I have found a balance that allows me to continue enjoying myself even when I reach the pinnacle of the football world. But I understand very well those who complain about the exaggerated ease encountered when managing a top team.

This is still an issue, you see, because as much as Real Madrid is one of the biggest teams in the world, coaching them in FM and winning everything for years on end shouldn't be so easy. There are other great teams in the world that should pose a challenge, not just watch from the sidelines. In La Liga, there's also Barcelona, there's Atletico Madrid... in Europe, there's Manchester City, PSG, Bayern, Juventus... Saying that it's normal to take one of these teams and win everything, always, isn't quite right. Because even if Real Madrid did manage to win three Champions League titles in a row, it was an incredibly rare feat with very few precedents in the history of football. It can't be considered the norm. Not to mention that the game itself loses a lot of fun if coaching a top team means winning everything with very little opposition.

Thank you very much!

I think it does. When I had a low number of players in one specific position, he would buy one. But you have to tell him, meaning that if you will never use one player in a position, remove him from the list. Let the DOF know you think you only have one or two alternatives for a role.

@Rashidi In the list you wrote, I only see players who move up positions. What can you tell us about players moving down? I assume F9, DLF-su, and CF-su drop into the AM strata. Which others? Oh never mind then, so there's no role coming deep, am I right? As a matter of fact, I don't see the TQ doing that. So I guess the only way to make a role come deep is to have the "comes deeper" trait, but that won't trigger a rotation anyway, correct?

The whole point of a challenge like this is to self-limit yourself and let your Director of Football (DOF) handle the transfer market, so you can compete at a level similar to the AI. Because a human player will always be better than AI in finding wonder kids and building a squad, to the point that after a few years, you end up winning everything simply because you have a significantly superior squad compared to your opponents'. That being said, I know that for many, buying and selling players is the most enjoyable part of the game... But I'm gladly doing without it because: 1- This way, my squad will never be significantly better than the AI teams. 2- I believe it's more realistic; in reality, the role of a football team's coach is to train the team, and perhaps ask the DOF what kind of players are needed to execute their game plan, but it's the DOF who handles the transfer business.