I've Come To The Conclusion This Game Has 2 Different Match Engines

[el sid]

It's amazing no one has said "It's your tactics" yet

[damienroden]

halleluja, finally a qualified reply. thanks a lot pdbravo. and please ignore that halfwit posting after you who thinks he has wit.

Wasn't aware you were the one to decide which replies 'qualify'.

[Mirrorkisser]

Wasn't aware you were the one to decide which replies 'qualify'.

ufff i tried like 20 different tactics.

and yes i do decide which replies do qualify for me as you have the same right for yourself. and if you dont have to contribute anything constructive, then dont waiste your life here. there are wonderful things outthere, like women, classical literature etc etc or just play some FM. this is not a life support forum.

@ pdbravo: hehe i am on an almost 5 season experiment. although i have to admit that my ambition sometimes gets in my way and i switch back to 2d mode.

my new theory must be then that si changes some numbers and values with the last patch. and those numbers that simulate home strength etc must be a little overtweaked now.

i aswell dont consider myself to be a tactical genius, although i play this game since championship manager 2 and was a witness of all those great icelandian prodigies in the early versions, that dominated world football, but the fact that i just lost one match at home in like 3 years and just have a handful of draws doesnt make me a tactical halfwit either. and no, i dont play the same tactics at home and away. i tried that, but it didnt work. away i play often with a deeper defense, depening on the opponent, sometimes 2 dmcs and often rather a counter attack football. in general i try to apply vertical one touch football though as i consider this in perfection as the highest expression of sexy football(as ruud gullit once said, for the younger ones of you, like kewell etc who are certainly still in the premasturbation stage of their life, he was a great dutch striker in the late 80s).

anyhow, thanks a lot for your comments pdbravo. i am glad someone approached it on a rational level and not just kept throwin abstact phrases like "coincidence", "your tactics", "your copy of the game".

i aswell didnt mean to insult anybody here, not even the most ignorant ones of you.(oops i did it again)

have a good start to the new year all of you.

[damienroden]

So one person's opinion is fact? Not at all my friend, you are frustated with the game and are trying to pick faults with it because you can't beat it.

[Mirrorkisser]

So one person's opinion is fact? Not at all my friend, you are frustated with the game and are trying to pick faults with it because you can't beat it.

thank you dr. freud. perhaps you should mention incestous tendencies somewhere. so if there is a bug and only a few see or consider it a bug then we are all weirdos? i mean the majority principle should not really apply in every case, that the majority is always right. not so long ago the majority of people in germany, italy and spain though fascism was the right thing, not too long before that the majority denied that their genetical ancestors were apes.

you dont make any rational statements that try to get different views at the issue. you just keep saying: its your fault, its your tactics etc etc. and of course as every human being i have a frustration limit.

in fact i dont even know why i keep replying to you.

[harritan]

ive found a simlair "issue", i scored once with adebayor and it looked offside, and probly was, he was past one of the groundsman stripes on the pitch and all their defenders where way infront of it, then i looked on the 2d cam and he was a good 2 metres on side.

[TheBetterHalf]

ive found a simlair "issue", i scored once with adebayor and it looked offside, and probly was, he was past one of the groundsman stripes on the pitch and all their defenders where way infront of it, then i looked on the 2d cam and he was a good 2 metres on side.

This is a fact that I have seen many, many times.

Most of the times my players did not complain about an offside so I suspected that it was the animation that was falwty rather than the refs eyes. So I decided to have a look at the goals after the match in both 2D and 3D and most of the times when the player clearly is offside in the 3D he is not so in the 2D. Now I dont know anything about programming, graphics etc so I cant say why or how, I just know what I see

[Serdar]

Respond to original poster; maybe it may have something to do with the issue about; it is actually more efficient to view match on 2D, meaning besides all the visual fuzz, you see more and can do better tactical adjustments when you watch the match in 2D compared to 3D.

I'm a programmer myself and have some educated guesses on high level about how the match engine works and I do not think there are two different engines and I do not think rendering has an effect on the outcome of the match. but I also understand if somone has personal game experince conflicting with that then it is really hard to convince that person and maybe it is just unneccessary to convince that person. If somone feels there are two engines then they should be just happy because they are gifted They can switch engines and get different difficulty as they wish during the game when most of us can not do it.

[chopper99]

Anyway, since the switch to 2D my forwards have been scoring like they used to in 08 and I've been winning matches by large margins. The game was much closer with the 3D enabled.

Did this change happen to coincide with the release of the 9.2.0 patch?

I believe that forwards not scoring or playing very well was improved in the 9.0.2 patch so it seems to me like this is just a coincidence.

[Äktsjon Männ]

It is possible to be honest. Not that there is a different engine, that is a clearly ridiculous notion. It is possible that the different viewpoint will give differing results. Here's why:

Computers do not generate truly random numbers, you have to fake randomness. When I was a programmer we used all sorts of things to get a random number such as the position of the player on the screen, the number of lives the player had left etc etc etc. We ran quite complicated calculations to try achieve as random a number as possible. Some parts of the rng (random number generator) that SI use could feasibly be generated in a different way dependent upon the current viewpoint. There are bound to be some very subtle changes because of this and if we could re-create every match with the exact same teams and tactics and run it over a 100 match (or more) test, we could ascertain if there are any differences. The way these numbers are generated is so complicated that nobody would actually know the true difference unless a trace program was run to follow it through, and that is very likely one of the things SI have already done in their own testing.

As I said previously, this simply can't happen because of the way the game works. The match events are generated before you start viewing the match (and re-calculated at any point a tactical change is made). It does not know how it's going to be displayed.

[Majkee]

As I said previously, this simply can't happen because of the way the game works. The match events are generated before you start viewing the match (and re-calculated at any point a tactical change is made). It does not know how it's going to be displayed.

So when is that exact point after which is the match generated? I want to know it, because that is the time when you need the right tactics to be set...

I try always to fake my opponents with going to the match with fake tactics, but up to the moment when I change my tactics to right one, I am loosing in FM 2009 so my approach seems to be wrong.

[chopper99]

So when is that exact point after which is the match generated? I want to know it, because that is the time when you need the right tactics to be set...

I try always to fake my opponents with going to the match with fake tactics, but up to the moment when I change my tactics to right one, I am loosing in FM 2009 so my approach seems to be wrong.

You're wasting your time attempting to do this. At the point where you see the 'Setting up match' text the engine is using every bit of information to calculate second by second what will happen in the game, including any changes the AI will make in reaction to goals etc. Every time you change tactics it will re-do these calculations, including re-calculating how the AI will react. It then shows you the result of these calculations in the form of highlights.

[Majkee]

You're wasting your time attempting to do this. At the point where you see the 'Setting up match' text the engine is using every bit of information to calculate second by second what will happen in the game, including any changes the AI will make in reaction to goals etc. Every time you change tactics it will re-do these calculations, including re-calculating how the AI will react. It then shows you the result of these calculations in the form of highlights.

So is that moment just after clicking SUBMIT CHANGES in pre-match team talk? Or when?

[damienroden]

thank you dr. freud. perhaps you should mention incestous tendencies somewhere. so if there is a bug and only a few see or consider it a bug then we are all weirdos? i mean the majority principle should not really apply in every case, that the majority is always right. not so long ago the majority of people in germany, italy and spain though fascism was the right thing, not too long before that the majority denied that their genetical ancestors were apes.

you dont make any rational statements that try to get different views at the issue. you just keep saying: its your fault, its your tactics etc etc. and of course as every human being i have a frustration limit.

in fact i dont even know why i keep replying to you.

There are faults in the game, I am not denying that. But you deciding that the game picks and chooses which game you win or lose based on which match engine you decide to watch isn't a bug. Seeing as the games result is decided once you set up the match.

[Äktsjon Männ]

So is that moment just after clicking SUBMIT CHANGES in pre-match team talk? Or when?

If you don't make any changes it calculates the events when you click 'go to match'. If you change anything before actually starting the match then it calculates when you press 'submit changes'. Either way the fake tactics strategy can't really work.

[Serdar]

what chopper said!

but dont get it wrong, it does not mean Match engine decides the result in advance and it does not matter what ever you do it wont change. What happens is; the engine is capable of simulating the match until end with the current configuration at any time. Also do not confuse this with the AI, match simulation is a totally different process then the AI for opposite team. Match simulator knows what will happen in that game already at that point when you start the match day. that also allows it to let you use which type of highlight or view mode you want because they just dont matter for the outcome. Simulator already knows at which minutes there is something worth to show. This goes until the point when user makes a tactical change. After the confirmation Match simulator recalculates the remaning of the match but again it does not force the match to end like that. It just knows what will happen "ONLY IF" current configuration will be kept.

Match simulator does not affect opponent AI but eventually it also knows what exact behaviour AI will do during the match if user keeps his current tactics.

I believe what is saved for record of one match is only the "starting conditions" and "tactical changes made by the user during the game" and also "the random factor generated for that match". With these 3 input same game can be played again and again with exact same outcome. Othwise it would be huge amount of data to save the coordinates of the players and ball on the field for replaying and I'm %99 sure it is not what FM does.

[reforse]

Would the original poster please save his game as two versions 2D and 3D.

Could he then play a match in 2D noting every change made to his side/tactics/talks. Please note the times of substitutions, injuries etc. Record the result.

Please then save and reload the 3D version, make the exact same changes to side/tactics/talks in the same order and play the match making the same substitutions (if a player was injured in the first version substitute him in the second). Record the result.

Delete the save you do not want to keep and re-save a new version from the save you are keeping.

Please do this for 3 seasons and provide the results data in a format that allows meaningful comparison.

Until this task is completed I suggest any new posts on this subject should go on the thread entitled "Astrology, Isn't it uncanny"