Need help with a 433

[HanziZoloman]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Cloud9:

For what specifically?

I am a fan of the Teamwork attribute, mostly because I run systems of play that don't carry passengers and I want the players working together + following my instructions! I think it also represents a shift we're seeing IRL w/less passenger / individualistic players in successful systems. 

I didn't gave the Teamwork attribute much attention in the past but field my most teamworking players now and it makes a big difference. There are some players who are passengers and when I have field them we lose games more easily

[HanziZoloman]

Am 19.3.2024 um 22:34 schrieb Cloud9:

For what specifically?

I am a fan of the Teamwork attribute, mostly because I run systems of play that don't carry passengers and I want the players working together + following my instructions! I think it also represents a shift we're seeing IRL w/less passenger / individualistic players in successful systems. 

Well, everything is working out. No more (too much) passengers. We still have some but I don't field too much of them and I'll try to replace them. Most importantly (!) the squad rotation works really good. I am very curious about January and February when we usually have our dip in form. At the moment we are shooting everything to pieces.

James Graham 19 apps/ 18 goals. I hope there will be a bidding in January because we desperately need money. We have some prospects to replace him.

 

Spoiler

 

Our Team Worker Ade Izzet does a solid job in midfield as the big one in the pivot. He develops nicely

Spoiler

 

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Well, everything is working out. No more (too much) passengers. We still have some but I don't field too much of them and I'll try to replace them. Most importantly (!) the squad rotation works really good. I am very curious about January and February when we usually have our dip in form. At the moment we are shooting everything to pieces.

James Graham 19 apps/ 18 goals. I hope there will be a bidding in January because we desperately need money. We have some prospects to replace him.

Glad it's working! Looks like you're in for a promotion?

Might be worth holding off for a sale in the summer if you can use Graham to ensure a promotion charge. 

[HanziZoloman]

It seems we are excelling even more, it's an unstoppable team right now. But January and February will show what the future holds. In Summer we will move into our brand new 20k stadium which will ease the money problems. Right now we're playing 9k. I believe the squad rotation is key to our impressive form. Loric Kalala is captain now Graham is great yes but there are some contracts running out and I can't renew them without money. They are mainly squad players maybe I can replace them and hold on Graham. His replacement No 1 is bagging goals as soon as he plays and Graham needs a rest. If I could sell a player for like 3 Millions I would be happy but we don't get any significant offers.  

[Cloud9]

20 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

 Graham is great yes but there are some contracts running out and I can't renew them without money. 

Sometimes when you're over performing the board will let you adjust expectations for more cash to spend now (usually around the start of the January window). That could help with contracts as well!

Very cool on the new stadium, 20k is a good number to play in front of

Edited March 22 by Cloud9

[HanziZoloman]

I need some help again. It's frustrating at times, all the good development from last season is gone despite the fact that all players developed and got better. I need to add that our xG is much better than our performance but we definitely concede too much goals. 

The Matches against Blackpool and Tranmere that are matches we were favorites and dominated the game.

I am still with a 4231. Most teams play wingers against us exploiting our weaknesses down the flanks. I gave up the 3-2 rest defense with IFB and L(D) which made us strong last season (we are expected to finish top half this year) and switched into a box build out with WB(D) but not to any better. When changing something we play some good games but there is no consistence to be found. We do have a lot of injuries but we also have very good players.

The IW(S/A) are to exploit opponents FB or WB who stay wide and I want to cut inside into the channels. We do have a high xG in many games but hit woodwork or the keeper has a brilliant save. But it's not all this, usually our opponents have big days against our defense too and have many good chances. Often by crossing the ball into the center. The WB can't stop the cross and the CB can't defend it. 

Our Keeper is one of the best in the league but has a lot of underperformances.

Edited April 13 by HanziZoloman

[crusadertsar]

@HanziZolomanIn FM sometimes you just have to score more than your opponent to win. With your very conservative double pivot your attack is not very threatening to the opposition. All they need to do is shut down your striker (or the moment their keeper has a great game).

You need to have at least one other source of goal penetration from your midfield. Particularly when your attack is set up the way it is. Wings are not a consistent source of goals in the game. And you are only using one striker. While your AMC is a playmaker role (attack duty won't make him score more). So in this tactic you rely on all your goals from your AF. That's not good. The moment he has a bad day, your game plan goes out the window. At least with 442 you would have more chances of salvaging a game, if one of the strikers wasn't doing well.

Edited April 13 by crusadertsar

[HanziZoloman]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb crusadertsar:

@HanziZolomanIn FM sometimes you just have to score more than your opponent. With your very conservative double pivot your attack is not very threatening to the opposition. All they need to do is shut down your striker (or the moment their keeper has a great game).

You need to have at least one other source of goal penetration from your midfield. Particularly when your attack is set up the way it is. Wings are not a consistent source of goals in the game. And you are only using one striker. While your AMC is a playmaker role (attack duty won't make him score more). So in this tactic you rely on all your goals from your AF. That's not good. The moment he has a bad day, your game plan goes out the window. At least with 442 you would have more chances of salvaging a game, if one of the strikers wasn't doing well.

Thank you @crusadertsar that makes sense, I went more conservative after we conceded more and more goals. Maybe it's time for a 433? I don't like the idea of a 442 because my best players are AMC/L/R and the striker

[crusadertsar]

5 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thank you @crusadertsar that makes sense, I went more conservative after we conceded more and more goals. Maybe it's time for a 433? I don't like the idea of a 442 because my best players are AMC/L/R and the striker

433 is a good idea. Because with a defensively-responsible DM, both of your CMs can act as number 8s to get forward and provide more attacking threat from deep.

[crusadertsar]

48 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thank you @crusadertsar that makes sense, I went more conservative after we conceded more and more goals. Maybe it's time for a 433? I don't like the idea of a 442 because my best players are AMC/L/R and the striker

You could also try something simple like this and it would probably make you more threatening in attack then your previous 4-2-3-1 tactic. It's just a very simple balanced formation that's guaranteed to provide attacks from different strata, not just striker.

It actually just allowed me to win second Super Cup trophy with Real Sociedad by beating a very strong Barcelona team. Albait I kind of exploited the fact that Barca was silly enough to use a narrow 4-2-2-2 formation against me. So us dominating against such a narrow shape was not so unexpected. 

Edited April 13 by crusadertsar

[WhiteElf]

Hello, 4231 is a very good setup, I achieved a lot with my save in Fulham. However, it started to get a bit boring for me, so I decided to start over with Valencia and set 433. I'm only halfway through the season, I signed Oscar Romero for free. In January I sold Jose Gay with great pain, but Al-Ittihad offered 81 million euros. Coming back to tactics, this is my own tactic, I always make my own tactics because it gives me the most satisfaction. After 21 matches I am second in the table. Maybe this will help you.

https://ibb.co/ZLLkGyj

https://ibb.co/f1kfYV5

https://ibb.co/pJVP7CJ

The tactics are very good defensively, my goalkeeper has 12 clean sheets in 21 matches. Hugo Duro is also great in attack, he has 13 goals, not counting IF and IW. It is important to have a strong and good header and off-the-ball striker, there are many crosses from the full-backs. My left wing back is actually a key player in this tactic.

[HanziZoloman]

Thanks to both of you @crusadertsar and @WhiteElf for your help. I think the Valencia set up looks a bit demanding for Billericay Town in EFL1 but I am thinking about a 433 to counter opposition with a 4231.

I mainly face 442 and 433 with wingers they exploit my weaknesses down the flanks.

the 4231 @crusadertsar looks interesting, it’s not a million miles away from what I am doing right now.
- The DLP is hard to find at the moment (I am not doing transfers, it’s the YAC set up) maybe a DM(S/D) with hold position will do the trick as well. 
- The SV needs mobility which I now have (!) 

- The FB(A) will be difficult, I have a better one on the left but no true options. 
- all options up front are available 

My Most dangerous players are the strikers, I have one with 17 jumping and 15 finishing and the AMC where I have 17 Off the ball and some other nice options. We can pass the ball and have decent tacklers in midfield. The wingers are all fast.

Weaknesses are clearly the defenseline

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

 

In a 4-2-3-1 I like to either have a progressive ball carrier from my defensive unit from either: 

• 1. The double pivot (SV, the defensive BBM is a great option for any pivot).
• 2. The wingbacks.

If I'm opting for a double DM(s) in my pivot I'm usually using a double WB(s) (or another progressive WB combo like IWBs) out wide as the two 6's provide cover for the wingbacks to bomb on. Some people use attack roles on the wingbacks w/two conservative 6's like this, but that tends to be a bit adventurous for my style of play. @crusadertsar's 4-2-3-1 will address some of those transition issues I think you're likely facing at the moment. 

The current 4-2-3-1 with the double WB(d) is almost better suited to a 4-3-3, where the frontline is given license to kill in quick/direct transitions. 

The other pivotal choice for me is in  your 9. The AF would be fine in the 4-3-3 I mention above where the direct style isn't hindered by his choice to run in behind (forcing turnovers) but in a less direct approach that can be an issue. A poacher will give you a similar spearheading threat, but one who will stay in the box and won't run the channels. Alternatively, like the DLF mentioned, a facilitating striker could help you make space for inside runs, w/out turning the ball over so frequently. 

Edited April 13 by Cloud9

[HanziZoloman]

Thank you as well @Cloud9 I appreciate your advice as always. I think I will build two shapes a 433 and a 4231. with the 4231 I will do a SV one because I have decent players who can pass and run and carry the game a bit but I‘ll do a DM(S) WB(S) with a box build out as well. 
Up front I imagine a P who pins one defender back and SS or AMC(A) coming in from behind. The P could easily change into a DLF(A) if it’s not the mighty James Graham who’s playing. 

I am looking at old posts here and there is still advice to follow. Some things are possible now with these players which had not before.

Just look at this, it's a usual pattern this year. We are the better team but concede 4 against the 23rd of the table. It's not like they outplaying us or hit us on the counter, just fumbling the ball in from the wings and you hear my CBs snoring. 

Spoiler

Here is some data:

 

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Edited April 13 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

Now that are the tactics I developed given your advice, I am sure they still need some refinement. I'd try to put my best players into spots to shine:

This is the one with the classic double pivot. DML got hold position, AMC(A) got roam, the wingmen play IW/ W depending on opponents FB. If they play wide players like WB I let mine cut inside, if the play narrow like IWB/ IFB I play classic Winger. Against better opponents I try and play a midblock. 

Spoiler

 

This one has the SV as a support from deep and the Libero.

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The 433 I want to use against all those 442 which give me headaches.

It could be something like this:

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[HanziZoloman]

This is a bit of all your advice: 

 

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I have two WB covering for the opponents Wingers, sometimes I put one of them on (S). The DLF(A) and SS from @crusadertsar and the double pivot where one is charging forward. The Wingers are switched due to opponents defenseline. If they play WB I let them cut inside IW(A/S), if they play IFB/ IWB I have stay wide as classic wingers. I note that it's easier to have the ball and dictate the game. Most opponents sit deep and wait for the counter attack on my vulnerable wings. Most goals conceded are bad defended crosses. Worst games are against League Two sides, we dominated the game and lost to a counter attack. We have a lot of opportunities but don't score much. 

I have two players I want to show you: 

Kristian Laine is one of the best defensive players I had in all the years. Sadly he's a bit short and can't jump. I used to play him as a L(D) in a 3-2 rest defense (with IFB) which suddenly stopped working after a strong campaign. Any suggestions regarding his development and role?

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 The other one is James Graham who plays under his possibilities. He had strong debut season as an AF but is now struggling since last season. He had Jumping up to 17 .. How would you play him?

Spoiler

 

 

Edited April 15 by HanziZoloman

[HanziZoloman]

We have another picture: This time it's a simple 433 which worked surprisingly well in a first match against a new promoted side (5:0)

I switched to a 433 because I believe it is more flexible for changes against different opposition formations (Swiss Army Knife). Against the 442 especially I hope for better defending with a HB against the striker partnership. I have plenty of creativity in the MC spots and even a sniper with good longshots who can be easily trained for MC.

I am eager to learn from your insights @crusadertsar and @Cloud9. I am tempted to be careful with any too early hopes because we did well several times after a tactical change and went back to usual laziness after a few matches.

Spoiler

 

Edited April 15 by HanziZoloman

[bosque]

11 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

We have another picture: This time it's a simple 433 which worked surprisingly well in a first match against a new promoted side (5:0)

I switched to a 433 because I believe it is more flexible for changes against different opposition formations (Swiss Army Knife). Against the 442 especially I hope for better defending with a HB against the striker partnership. I have plenty of creativity in the MC spots and even a sniper with good longshots who can be easily trained for MC.

I am eager to learn from your insights @crusadertsar and @Cloud9. I am tempted to be careful with any too early hopes because we did well several times after a tactical change and went back to usual laziness after a few matches.

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I'm not Cloud nor Crusader but it is possible that your DM will be isolated down the middle during defensive transitions because both 8s will go to the AM strata and the WBs will stay wide. And he may have very long passing lines when in-possesion and passes may be easier to intercept. But check it during games. If that happens you may consider having someone with him during the in-possession phase. A Libero or an Inverted Wingback.

BUT, if the DM is very good and complete, he will have plenty of space to work his magic.

Edited April 16 by bosque

[HanziZoloman]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb bosque:

BUT, if the DM is very good and complete, he will have plenty of space to work his magic.

He‘s not, which is why I’ll take your advice seriously. Thank you @bosque

[bosque]

8 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

He‘s not, which is why I’ll take your advice seriously. Thank you @bosque

I'm playing a similar 433 and I noticed this problems with the DM. This comes from experience haha 😅 

[HanziZoloman]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb bosque:

I'm playing a similar 433 and I noticed this problems with the DM. This comes from experience haha 😅 

Great! You solved it with a L(D) ?

I am facing a lot of Wingers, which is why I opt for WB(D). Do you face a lot of wingers too and how do you cope with your team?

Plus: do you play an underdog?

[bosque]

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

Great! You solved it with a L(D) ?

I am facing a lot of Wingers, which is why I opt for WB(D). Do you face a lot of wingers too and how do you cope with your team?

Plus: do you play an underdog?

No, I don't play with an underdog team. I'm not that good haha.

Depending on the back four players, sometimes a L(d) if the player is a good BPD, others an IWB(d) if the player can play inside without losing the ball with bad first touches. And others I use a Carrilero (because he doesn't rotate upwards) on the same side of a WB(s) and IF, emulating Liverpool's righ hand side.

Regarding the Wingers question, I don't use to change too much based on opposition because when I do it almost always back fire  But I think that If you keep your Wingbacks on defend duty, you are facilitating the Wingers job because they don't need to track back. You could leave one WB(d) to face their most dangerous Winger and be more positive with the other one, so you have 1+ body when in-possession and the opposition Winger has to track back. If he doesn't you have a free player.

Edited April 16 by bosque

[WhiteElf]

On 15/04/2024 at 17:47, HanziZoloman said:

Mamy jeszcze jeden obrazek: tym razem jest to proste 433, które zadziałało zaskakująco dobrze w pierwszym meczu przeciwko nowej drużynie, która awansowała (5:0)

Przesiadłem się na 433, ponieważ uważam, że jest bardziej elastyczny do zmian przeciwko różnym formacjom opozycyjnym (szwajcarski scyzoryk). Szczególnie przeciwko 442 mam nadzieję na lepszą obronę z HB przeciwko partnerstwu napastnika. Mam dużo kreatywności w spotach MC, a nawet snajpera z dobrymi strzałami z dystansu, którego można łatwo wyszkolić do MC.

Chętnie dowiem się z Twoich spostrzeżeń @crusadertsar i @Cloud9. Kusi mnie, aby być ostrożnym z jakimikolwiek zbyt wczesnymi nadziejami, ponieważ kilka razy dobrze nam poszło po zmianie taktyki, a po kilku meczach wróciliśmy do zwykłego lenistwa.

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Sorry, but your tactics are wrong. You have too many attacking Wa, APa and AFa players. In addition, DMs who will almost always be under the opponent's penalty area during the attack. Your Wa on the left will be lonely, with a positive mentality it is enough to give wingers as support. Change the DM to defense and he will still help in the attack, but more carefully. Change AP to BBMw, it attacks the opponent's penalty area, helps in playing the action and helps in defense. With 433, use the full-backs, they will provide you with width.

[HanziZoloman]

Thanks for the advice @WhiteElf I will check those issues and think about your suggestions. 

[Cloud9]

On 15/04/2024 at 07:47, HanziZoloman said:

We have another picture: This time it's a simple 433 which worked surprisingly well in a first match against a new promoted side (5:0)

I switched to a 433 because I believe it is more flexible for changes against different opposition formations (Swiss Army Knife). Against the 442 especially I hope for better defending with a HB against the striker partnership. I have plenty of creativity in the MC spots and even a sniper with good longshots who can be easily trained for MC.

I am eager to learn from your insights @crusadertsar and @Cloud9. I am tempted to be careful with any too early hopes because we did well several times after a tactical change and went back to usual laziness after a few matches.

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This can work fine! I wouldn't use it every game you play though. I also think you will struggle with this on shorter passing.

It's a style that is built to absorb pressure and then hit the opposition team in transition, you might consider an all attack role frontline for something like this. This can work on a high press or lower lines system but it's reliant on the opposition being willing to come out and play. I'd leave "hold shape" unticked as well. If they park the bus or are letting you dictate the tempo of the match, then I would prefer a different approach.

No need to drop the DM(s) but I might want a hard working profile or role for the AP or CM(a). 

Edited April 17 by Cloud9