Recreating Xabi Alonso's Bayer Leverkusen tactic. Tactic & importantly discussion?

[comedychrissy]

 

Hi folks,

So iv'e had a crack on FM23 at recreating Xabi Alonso's 3-4-2-1, using the concept of relationalist movement, extreme short passing and asymmetrical movement. I felt the best way to do this was to have two pivots as Xabi has it but was confused/unsure as to the roles being replicated in game. So I basically spent a few days just experimenting until the players behaved the way Alonso's do.  What I have came up with is a very good functional tactic for FM23 but for those of you that have FM24 I am thinking adopting a similar approach or perhaps using the same tactic will work for you, as it's not reliant on any exploit etc, just a faithful recreation (as best as the match engine will allow) of Xabi's excellent tactic.

The key was having players that would act as a "3rd man" not only offensively but defensively, with the Enganche, Volante and and WB roles, the players present this option continually and you'll notice the instructions are all low risk, short passing where possible, as I wanted these players to take this easy option instead of launching  a "hollywood" pass. 

I hope this is useful for folks that want a high possession, Xabi style tactic. I know the roles are not what the player roles are in real life, but the instructions combinations created I do feel replicates this. Certainly this has been the case with FM23, of which this has easily been the most fun tactic I have ever created.

Have fun and all discussion on this is welcome. If anyone has any role suggestions etc that could improve how it replicates Xabi's tactic i'd love to read about it. replication not results is what i'm after but I think most folk will find this works really well.

Tips for using the tactic

 

Game management

If you get a player sent off, take off an AMC/EG to replace the position and place the lone AMC/EG in the centre.

If a player gets booked early on take-off THE “Tackle Harder” player instruction. If they give up a freekick or are injured as well shortly after - sub them, no matter how early as this is an indication, they are going to get a red card soon. Any players with injuries, even slight, sub them.

 

Team talks and shouts - situational analysis

In terms of instructions pre-halftime and post-game I generally say nothing before the game or “I expect to keep this good run going”, if things are not going well or we are underdogs I’ll every 15 minutes "Demand More" as a shout. At halftime I’d go assertive "I'm far from pleased with what I just saw from this team" if only up by two goals and aggressive "I'm far from pleased with what I just saw from this team" at halftime if only drawing or one goal up. If three goals up at halftime and/or after a win, I’d praise the team. I don’t use OI’s and don’t delegate them either.

Set pieces

There is no exploits, let the AI assign players for roles. I do not assign set piece takers and tbh as long as your FC or DC’s are not assigned to it naturally, the set pieces will work fine. There are no pre-defined set piece takers apart from throw in takers WBL left and WBR right.

 

Giving yourself the best chance of success in FM

To give yourself the best chance of winning you need a happy and fit squad. That means engaging with players and managing injuries. Have training schedules that keep your squad fit. Ideally you should deal with any player issues etc to maintain morale and if you do not holiday between games and deal with player concerns you should achieve better results. If players are not performing, drop them and tell them why. Ideally you should never play a player below 90% condition and those with low percentage match sharpness should be eased in gently.

 

Player Selection

This is hugely important. In a perfect world to make the best use of any tactic you need players that are up for it and are physically capable of lasting the 90+ minutes. Therefore, you need players that have a strong baseline of the following attributes - determination, anticipation, decisions, teamwork, work rate, stamina, acceleration, pace, natural fitness. Anything under 13 for these wouldn’t be in a team I select preferably at the top level. Lower this value as you go down the leagues.

Obviously signing young players is preferable for development and reselling and also there are attributes for each position that are desirable as well, but ideally you want your baseline for those main stats to be above the average of your competitors in the competitions you are in in order to have any chance.

Player management is also important. Do not holiday between games, deal with player concerns and rotate and keep healthy players in the side at all times. Do not play a player if they are below 90% condition and substitute any injured or mildly injured players immediately. Likewise, if you can substitute any player going into the red zone of 50% condition. The stronger the baseline of the players, the less likely they will tire. I generally would never play a player with determination below 12/13 if I can help it at any level in the game. Determination is the one key stat I always put above others.

I keep my squads happy by playing my first team in the league and in Europe, with my second-choice players playing in the cups or in league game I am an overwhelming favourite.

 

 

 

 

Relationalism.fmf

Edited February 6 by comedychrissy

[bosque]

I really like the advice on morale, fitness and consistency with player selections. I noticed that when your team have nailed familiarity and have very good to excellent team cohesion the play is more fluid and they do exactly what you want.

On the debate about Xabi Alonso's Leverkusen you may be interest on this thread: 

 

[comedychrissy]

9 minutes ago, bosque said:

I really like the advice on morale, fitness and consistency with player selections. I noticed that when your team have nailed familiarity and have very good to excellent team cohesion the play is more fluid and they do exactly what you want.

On the debate about Xabi Alonso's Leverkusen you may be interest on this thread: 

 

Oh thanks for this, i'm off to go read, thank you!

[ceefax the cat]

With maxed out counterpressing settings like that, you'll win and the game will completely fail to punish you with injuries, fatigue, mistakes in possession at the back etc. The rest of your instructions are almost irrelevant. Kind of annoying how the game just lets you max everything out and play the most insane, high-risk, high-tempo football imaginable, almost regardless of the quality of your squad. It should be the absolute hardest thing to do in the game and instead it's almost a cheat code.

Edited January 25 by ceefax the cat

[comedychrissy]

On 25/01/2024 at 15:51, ceefax the cat said:

With maxed out counterpressing settings like that, you'll win and the game will completely fail to punish you with injuries, fatigue, mistakes in possession at the back etc. The rest of your instructions are almost irrelevant. Kind of annoying how the game just lets you max everything out and play the most insane, high-risk, high-tempo football imaginable, almost regardless of the quality of your squad. It should be the absolute hardest thing to do in the game and instead it's almost a cheat code.

I can't disagree and totally get your point. It shouldn't work but it does.

[josh.miller92]

1 hour ago, comedychrissy said:

I can't disagree and totally get your point. It shouldn't work but it does.

 

On 25/01/2024 at 15:51, ceefax the cat said:

With maxed out counterpressing settings like that, you'll win and the game will completely fail to punish you with injuries, fatigue, mistakes in possession at the back etc. The rest of your instructions are almost irrelevant. Kind of annoying how the game just lets you max everything out and play the most insane, high-risk, high-tempo football imaginable, almost regardless of the quality of your squad. It should be the absolute hardest thing to do in the game and instead it's almost a cheat code.

It’s working for Xabi 😉

[ceefax the cat]

4 hours ago, josh.miller92 said:

It’s working for Xabi 😉

The difference being that he has to be a very good manager to get them to do it, whereas in FM the opposite applies! The hardest thing to do is play zero-risk, back-to-basics football of the type that every pub footballer who ever lived knows, while the easiest thing to do is ask your team to run constantly, counterpress, defend on the halfway line, play intricate short passing football and rotate your centre-halves into midfield.

[crusadertsar]

25 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

The difference being that he has to be a very good manager to get them to do it, whereas in FM the opposite applies! The hardest thing to do is play zero-risk, back-to-basics football of the type that every pub footballer who ever lived knows, while the easiest thing to do is ask your team to run constantly, counterpress, defend on the halfway line, play intricate short passing football and rotate your centre-halves into midfield.

The bizarro world of FM 

[Bahnzo]

On 22/01/2024 at 15:40, bosque said:

I noticed that when your team have nailed familiarity and have very good to excellent team cohesion the play is more fluid and they do exactly what you want.

I've seen a lot of "trusted" FM players say this doesn't matter. But I agree with you, I train my players in their positions and roles so they have near perfect familiarity and I absolutely believe it makes a difference. I think this is often overlooked when people give advice about the game. 

[bosque]

5 minutes ago, Bahnzo said:

I've seen a lot of "trusted" FM players say this doesn't matter. But I agree with you, I train my players in their positions and roles so they have near perfect familiarity and I absolutely believe it makes a difference. I think this is often overlooked when people give advice about the game. 

Exactly! I just won the CL in the third season with Leverkusen (and the players arent beast or wonderkids) by using a coherent system and focusing on having a perfect or near to perfect familiarity and very good to excelent team cohesion. Not sure if it's a placebo but I can see the players being more fluid or doing exactly what they should be doing.

I was struggling a lot with the game and winning the CL or even a league was near impossible to me. I believed too that familiarity wasn't important. Now is one of the first things I check before making changes to the tactic.

Edited February 2 by bosque

[josh.miller92]

10 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

The difference being that he has to be a very good manager to get them to do it, whereas in FM the opposite applies! The hardest thing to do is play zero-risk, back-to-basics football of the type that every pub footballer who ever lived knows, while the easiest thing to do is ask your team to run constantly, counterpress, defend on the halfway line, play intricate short passing football and rotate your centre-halves into midfield.

No of course I agree I’m just messing.

i suppose you could make an argument that for a few years now the most successful teams do play with this style. Even Atletico who have been famously anti-football have moved to a more progressive system. By definition getting a really pragmatic system to work well should be more difficult (Jose I open up this comment to you) and would require a lot more intervention on a game by game basis.

i for one enjoy the challenge that pragmatic football isn’t as easy to plug in than gengen, the game might be a little more boring if it was. 

 

 

[crusadertsar]

5 hours ago, josh.miller92 said:

No of course I agree I’m just messing.

i suppose you could make an argument that for a few years now the most successful teams do play with this style. Even Atletico who have been famously anti-football have moved to a more progressive system. By definition getting a really pragmatic system to work well should be more difficult (Jose I open up this comment to you) and would require a lot more intervention on a game by game basis.

i for one enjoy the challenge that pragmatic football isn’t as easy to plug in than gengen, the game might be a little more boring if it was. 

 

 

Couldn't have said myself. Pragmatic Football has been the only football I have been playing for the past 3 versions of the game. It's often a struggle and involves alot game by game micro-management but makes winning so much more satisfying. And besides I love winning clinically with fewest possible goals conceeded.

[ceefax the cat]

11 hours ago, josh.miller92 said:

i suppose you could make an argument that for a few years now the most successful teams do play with this style.

Totally.... because when you have the very best players, a really good manager and coaches, and some time to set it up, it's worth the risk. If not, you'll concede loads of goals either on the break or while trying to play out from the back, and your players will get really tired from trying to press all the time. If those risks were a factor in FM, the game would be a hell of a lot richer. You'd have to really think about building a setup that would allow you to play that kind of football, and until then you might have to water it down a bit.

The situation in the game as it stands is kind of like: new manager walks into Random FC dressing room, whips out his whiteboard and says, "So you know Man City yeah? Pep Guardiola la la la etc. I think we should do that." And they just go out and do it. Job done, congratulations, you're one of the best managers in the world.

[comedychrissy]

23 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

Totally.... because when you have the very best players, a really good manager and coaches, and some time to set it up, it's worth the risk. If not, you'll concede loads of goals either on the break or while trying to play out from the back, and your players will get really tired from trying to press all the time. If those risks were a factor in FM, the game would be a hell of a lot richer. You'd have to really think about building a setup that would allow you to play that kind of football, and until then you might have to water it down a bit.

The situation in the game as it stands is kind of like: new manager walks into Random FC dressing room, whips out his whiteboard and says, "So you know Man City yeah? Pep Guardiola la la la etc. I think we should do that." And they just go out and do it. Job done, congratulations, you're one of the best managers in the world.

Again not disagreeing with your perspective on this. As a former licenced coach I do appreciate that the realism is not there yet with the simulation, however it is exceptionally interesting to see concepts played out, even if they are unfeasible in reality. 

There perhaps needs to be harsher punishment for stamina draining instructions and more differentiation in work level outputs. Still saying this, it's a lot of fun, despite the unrealistic nature of it. 

[ceefax the cat]

Yes, it needn't be harder to put those tactics together... there should just be more of a downside to it