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It's a brilliant game - but is it a mobile game?


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It's a really great game

First off, deep respect for how good a game the FM Mobile series is. Given the range of devices and range of user experience with the brand, plus the need to balance depth of database with playability and realism, all while keeping up with the PC game, it's a fine achievement. I thought FM23 brought a good balance of difficulty as well, always a concern for the longer-term player, and the game continues to support modding, which is always welcome.

Which is why I'm really surprised that the sales haven't been sufficient and the Netflix deal was required. It is, after all, a good product with no "pay to play" or other annoying mobile game issues, offered at a boom time for football. The PC and Console versions seem to be doing well and there's no branding issues. From what I can tell there's no problem appealing to young people as well, and international gamers should be a good fit with a mobile game.

I wonder if part of it is the decline in mobile versions of PC or console games in general. "Kids these days" play their complex, high-spec games at home but know there's no way to replicate that on a mobile, so instead they watch streams of the games or videos of other people playing on social media, or talk about it on reddit and so on. I'm an old fart, so correct me if I'm wrong on this! As far as I can see, FM has good social media engagement etc. 

So is it possible the problem with the mobile version is that it is too good? As in it replicates the PC game too well? This is both a gameplay issue and a visual issue, and I'll start with the latter as it's the easier one.

 

Visuals

FMM24 is the first version I'm not going to play (since CM2) because it's simply too dark. Now, I'm an old man (see my comment about CM2) and my eyesight isn't perfect, but what I mean by too dark is the palette choice. It's dark, intricate, and makes it hard for key information to jump out. Compare with FMM2017 - to my mind, the best edition, screenshot above. Broadly the same information, but bright and appealing. Now, I get that graphic designers have carefully considered the colour choices in FM and that the mobile game matches the PC one, but should it? Or should it have a separate, lighter, easier identity?

 

Gameplay

This goes for gameplay as well. By replicating the PC game, the mobile version is daunting for the new player and frustrating for the old player. It can and will never match the PC version for options and depth, but a smaller version would have very limited re-playability. 

As I understand it, most people play as a big team in a big league and bash out a few seasons. Longer-term players tend to work their way up from the bottom or try to set challenges like a thousand-goal career. But for all mobile players the fun basically ends when the game stops being "realistic" due to too many regens. This seems to be less of an issue for the PC game, where regens are a big part of the fun. But the essential fun of the mobile game is building a team of real players. This isn't a criticism of the youth system in FMM by the way, but again it's probably simply too good for what the mobile user needs

The match engine is brilliant and even better this year than last year. The tactical options and "send your keeper forward" narrative stuff is great. It makes the match the focus. It's a real technical achievement on such a range of mobile devices.

I wonder then if the best idea is to simplify everything else - but to be clear, simplify it from a user experience perspective only, centring the gameplay on the match day and hiding everything else under the hood to make a lighter, brighter, more user-friendly game.

 

Training

I can see the appeal of this as it works well on PC, but does anyone really use it on mobile? Personally I just hire a "general, natural" coach and stick it all on him. Individual training schedules may be more for a game called Football Coach than Football Manager these days anyway. By contrast, hiring and firing coaches is fun, as is improving the training ground, and most of all giving scouting, physio, and coaching roles to retiring legends from your team. So why not leave it there? You hire good coaches, build up your training ground, and the better you do those things the more your players improve. Remove the somewhat daunting training screen altogether.

 

Scouting/Player attributes 

Does anyone use scouting in FM? Not a criticism at all, but rather the reality of a game where you have full info on all the world's players. By contrast, in real life scouting is even more vital than ever. So here's my radical suggestion - hide the player stats and rely on the scouts instead. 

Literally no-one who picks up FM Mobile is not already a fan of football and familiar with all the top players. They don't really need to know whether Mo Salah has shooting 17 or shooting 19 to decide if they are going to try to buy him for PSG. 

Similarly, while long-term fans like the attributes, they tend to dig out tools and databases and find the CA and PA of the players and base decisions off that.

Meanwhile, SI has introduced an excellent personality system for players which works well but is obscured by all the numbers and stats. Am I really going to pick a player who is determined over one who is rash if the latter has technique 18 and pace 15? Whereas in reality it is the blending of personalities that is the primary job of the modern manager - so hide the mechanics and bring the personalities forward.

The player screen could then be as simple as the club General Info screen. Just the picture, the personality description, position, and season stats. Player history in another tab. That's it. For the new gamer this would be perfect and less daunting.

Then you would use a strong Fog of War approach - i.e. you know literally nothing about minor players except their name, position, and stats. You have to scout them to find out about their style of play, their potential, and their personality. Major players would have most of that info in place already.

Suddenly, scouting is vital. With the current game if I want to know if there are any pacy wingers in Sweden I just use Player Search. With the new approach I would have to send a scout to Sweden, like in real life.

(Just by the way, the opposition analysis part of scouting is perfect as it is).

 

Transfers / finances 

The transfer systems are pretty much perfect for the mobile game. If going from a scouting approach you might use shortlisting and more long-term transfer approaches but that's a player choice. Finances could do with being slightly more complex - it would be nice if ticket sales or TV appearences affected your bottom line or even to return to a monthly approach like in early CM. But as it stands the finances are appealing to a new player, and fine for the experienced one.

 

Tactics

Here I must admit I'm finding the game becoming quite complicated for minimal extra value. The player roles approach is perfect, and perhaps it just needs to be player roles plus positions? So if you want to play tiki-taka, pick lots of playmakers, if you want to go Route One, pick a big centre-forward and play him as a target man. No need to decide if you are more a gegenpress person or a fluid counter player, or to decide if you want to play short, long, wide, narrow, etc.

Basically, make it deterministic based on the players you chose. So if your scout tells you a defender can play it out from the back, he will automatically do that if picked. If your scout says he's a big lump, then he will get rid rather than try to play. If you pick two wingers and two wing backs you will be "wide" while picking all central midfielders will make you "narrow".

Training could be used well here to make a player generally better, but for the casual player we want the power to be with us in the team selection  and the transfer market, not through finding some gamey downloadable tactic that works regardless of players.

Once again you would keep the mechanics the same as they are, but reduce the user experience down to words and descriptions, and the classic placing of Xs and Os on a chalkboard. Hide the workings.

 

Expansion 

I doubt anyone will read all that, so here's the TLDR - make the game bright and visually appealing, hide all the numbers, and make it a narrative/description based game rather than a spreadsheet based game (we have the PC version for that!).

They key thing is that all you are really changing is the appearance/user experience. The stats, database, and so on are already there. So theoretically you could still open that all up as a paid extra, including easier access for modders.

Finally, the one thing FM doesn't seem to ever exploit is its historic databases. There may be a licence/IP issue for this but a retro version would hold a lot of value as a paid extra, or the chance to play narratives like the Arsenal Invincibles.

I know this is an essay but this is the first time I simply don't want to play the new version and will stick to the old. But I wanted to make it clear that isn't a criticism of the game itself, which continues to be excellent, but rather the user experience for an old fart like me. Too dark, too many numbers! :)

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Edited by Pete1234
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Options to change the look and make it brighter for you to view it better are good ideas.

But I couldn’t disagree more with all of the rest of your suggestions (and I’m just as much of an old fart. I remember playing Toms’s Football Manager version on the Acorn Electron! 👴)

FMM is a game without levels. You’re dropped in at the deep end and you have to figure the game out for yourself. Other games lead players through a series of levels to give them knowledge of how to play. The fact you can do whatever you want in as many varying ways as FMM provides is one of its strengths.

As you say, it still appeals to the casual player as they load up a big club and knock out a successful season and then move on to another game altogether. An over simplified version of FMM would only appeal to the those kinds of players.

The players who get to the point where FMM becomes easy are the ones you want to stick around. They are the ones who are likely to make FMM their main game and come back for the next version. They are also the annoying ones who come on to the forums demanding changes to the game to try and make it better. 😁

They move on to doing challenges and find ways to make the game harder. This is the one area I think FMM could stand out out from its big brother. Bring options into the game you can turn on to make it harder. E.g., Limited transfers, unable to break the wage budget, etc. and a way to make your own challenges—whether player, manager or club based.

In my opinion the reason FMM has struggled in recent years is when people find they no longer have time for the full FM version they look for something less involved. Unfortunately this player base gets split between FMT and FMM. (And presumably the console version but I’ve never played it.) It’s also now split between Apple Arcade and Netflix.

Personally I think FMM hits the sweet spot better than FMT. FMM23/FMM24 have been the best versions I’ve played. But the subscription model is a big turn off. And it will mean the hardcore FMM community will probably get smaller than bigger. (I’ve just cancelled Netflix so I’m back to FMM23 for a few months at least.)

But then if FMM would have stopped being developed without Netflix then it’s a no brainer really.

 

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Appreciate the lengthy response! I suppose I'm not talking so much about levels or difficulty, but rather accessibility, speed of play, and moving from a spreadsheet "look" to a more narrative look.

I think the basic game would play the same, but you wouldn't see all the numbers. So rather than, for example, Dominic Calvert-Lewin having a visible heading attribute of 17, you would have a coach or scout tell you he's good in the air. Similarly to how his injury-prone attribute is currently not visible but your physio can tell you he has trouble with fitness.

So you would rely way more on the other "characters" in the game for the info, and you would make more decisions on personalities and player types (as in real life) than on columns of numbers. This would create more of a narrative approach than a stats approach as you would have to work out which coaches and scouts are best and which need to be moved on.

Overall, I think anyone who has played the game for years would get a lighter, quicker, more character-based and fun version of what they already have without losing what we all like about the game. You would still get "dropped in" as you rightly put it and have to figure it out - only the mechanism would be words and characters rather than numbers and attributes. 

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Another old fart here (started on CM2, eyes aren't great), and while I don't want to discount what you're saying (there is a lot of truth in there), I agree with @DoneHisCruciate

It comes back to the audience for this game and there are some potentially very different audiences.

I definitely belong to the "FM is too much, give me something like CM01/02" crowd and I think there are a lot of us out there. We want the detail. We want the control. Not too much of it, but we wouldn't want the game dumbed down. And yeah, we're the annoying fans who come on here to complain and although there are a lot of us, we are a tiny group in the bigger scheme of thing - but we show up every year and buy the game again rain hail or shine. We're also likely to buy other things if you put the right things in front of us (historic databases is a great eg, although I know there are licensing issue).

The game you're describing after the changes will appeal to a different crowd. There are a lot more of that type of user, but they are also much more fickle and probably less willing to go for the current pricing point. Still if you can create stickiness to get a reasonable percentage to come back next year, then there's a lot more money to be made there - but it's not a given that would work and you couldn't make those changes without losing a large portion of the first group.  

Actually, I feel like SI Games have been targeting the second group and perhaps you're right and that's the problem. Their actual audience is the first group, but they haven't been giving us what we want by sticking a little too much to the "have to keep it simple for mobile users" mantra, while at the same time it's too overcomplicated for the second group who they think they are targeting. Interesting... 

Anyway, this would take some investment from SI Games and I think that moment is probably gone now, but if it were up to me, I think I'd probably: a) double down on FMM being for the first crowd and maybe add a little more depth (in a "there if you want it" way); but also b) leverage the database and licenses to create a new, much simpler, narrative based game at a lower price point that would appeal more to the masses.

Also, I'd love them to think outside the box more. Can't release historic databases because the license at the time said player/teams/leagues/images/logos etc can only be used in that one specific version of the game? Okay, maybe they can 'update' that version to include the FMM24 functionality and re-release it at a lower price point - ie for a few pounds you could buy a re-issued FMH12 with the FMM24 functionality and original FMH12 database. People on places like Vibe seem to like doing challenges. Build that into the game, prevent cheating/reloading and create leader boards to build the community out further. Maybe add a "create your own challenge" feature and allow those to be shared centrally, both building community and maybe even charging a couple of pounds extra for some of that.

There's so much more they could do with a little bit of creative thinking. Although I guess those things may be less likely in the Netflix era.

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2 hours ago, Pete1234 said:

So you would rely way more on the other "characters" in the game for the info, and you would make more decisions on personalities and player types (as in real life) than on columns of numbers. This would create more of a narrative approach than a stats approach as you would have to work out which coaches and scouts are best and which need to be moved on.

 

Yeah, I get what you’re saying. Personally I like the numbers because you can make finer judgements between players but I can see how it might not appeal.

I think with the team dynamic/team mood we already are seeing that part of the game evolve. I know for myself that a player’s personality becomes a big part of whether I decide to buy someone. Pressing the personality and seeing the pop-up of all their character traits was a revelation when it first came out! 

But yeah perhaps that could be presented in a more accessible way.

I also think that’s another area where you could make the game harder for those who want it. An option that only reveals the full list of characteristics when the player has played x number of games for the club. So you only see the most dominant characteristic before you buy them (and whatever hints you can get from the scout report) and their full personality gets revealed over time. 

 

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As BlackAdder used to say, "I have a plan, so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel" ... I'll never dumb down the game, but I do have plans to make it friendlier and more accessible (and hopefully addictive/fun) for users ... this isn't something that will happen overnight, so watch this space and enjoy the ride as we move forward into the future :D

PS - I really appreciate everyones comments in this thread, they're intelligent and well thought out, unfortunately for obvious reasons I can't share the plans for the games future with the public at this time.

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It may be no harm to get feedback from players though? I mean, it's a much-loved game that is very good and yet is losing players according to SI. So why not involve players to help figure it out?

For example, based on this tiny sample size, I would see an argument for redoing Touch and Mobile into two much more different games. Keep one of them (let's call it FMM Numbers) like the current Mobile - as close to the PC version as possible, with lots of sliders and fine-tuning. Then make the second one (let's call it FMM Narrative) the same game but with a reworked interface.

So with the current game, if you're a newly-promoted Premier League team and you want a centre-forward like Haaland but only have £10m to spend, you go to the player search and enter minimum attributes and maximum price and then you have to remember to see if they are determined or injury prone or go through their past. Then you will end up choosing between a 35 year-old grizzled pro who might have one season in him, a 27 year-old with dodgy knees, or to take a punt on a 19 year-old. So the fun is that decision.

In FMM Narrative, you would just tell your scouting team to find you a player like Haaland for less than £10m and they would present you the three options above. So you have the same fun decision to make, you just get there much quicker and in a manner that feels more like how an actual football manager would do it.

Another example might be if you are playing a team who use wing-backs and you want to get in behind them, in the current game you look for the guy whose green positional button is further up on the left, whose numbers for pace, dribbling, and strength are higher, rather than the guy who plays deeper and is more about passing and technique. In FMM Narrative you would just pick the guy described (in a bit more length, but basically) as a pacy winger over the guy described as a playmaker. Or in reality you would pick Doku over Grealish because every player of the game knows most of the footballers. So again you are making the same fun decision, with the same mechanics under the hood, just different presentation.

So the decisions would be just as hard, the depth just as deep, and the mechanics just as intricate. From a development perspective, both FMM Numbers and FMM Narrative would look the same under the hood. But one would be really easy to pick up and play, and the other would appeal to the more in-depth player who wants the underlying numbers.

They would also not necessarily compete, particularly if one were free on Netflix with DLCs and the other on the traditional FMM pricing model.

Edited by Pete1234
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7 hours ago, DoneHisCruciate said:

Aw man, I wish you could get historic databases. It would be an awesome addition.

I thought the same until I built one. It was fun, but it's far too easy when you have advanced knowledge of how good all the young players will be. Now, limited historic challenges would be be great - but really hard to build!

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19 hours ago, Pete1234 said:

It may be no harm to get feedback from players though? I mean, it's a much-loved game that is very good and yet is losing players according to SI. So why not involve players to help figure it out?

Indeed and I appreciate all the feedback we get and all of us on the team listen and consider it when plotting a course forward.

 

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19 hours ago, Pete1234 said:

I thought the same until I built one. It was fun, but it's far too easy when you have advanced knowledge of how good all the young players will be. Now, limited historic challenges would be be great - but really hard to build!

There are licensing issues with using a historic database sadly (which is a shame as I  have a personal collection of all the Rothman guides from the 70's just in case that ever changes :)).

I think done right it could be quite interesting, although as Pete mentions it may be somewhat too easy unless the players 'come in' and then randomly develop according to chance and fortune so you might be end up in the alternative universe where one of my old team-mates from the Brighton University league hadn't broken his leg and had to drop out of the Manchester United youth team (in which case our team back then would have been even worse than it already was ;) ).

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I am a fan on tactics more than management of a club. There are lot football manager games / APPs, they are more focus how you manage a team, the tactics part is very simple.

Why I love FMM is that even FMM is a simplified match engine than PC version but it is still very powerful one than other mobile football games.

What I expect is that more roles and more team instructions will be put in mobile version. (For me, I'd like old version of FMH with team instruction, individual instruction, who is allowed to long shot, who can hold up the ball...)

 

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I got a lad at work hooked on this game, I knew he liked footy, so I asked him if he had Netflix. Ovs said yes, so I mentioned FM 24, hes got ios, downloaded kits, badges, logos etc. Very powerful phone he has, made me laugh today, its took over his life, including his wife haha. But on a another note, I have to say, I'm extremely impressed with this game MR Vaughan. As I said, I've been playing games since the good old days of CM 03/04. Got a PS5, Eggbox One, Nintendo Switch, but never found anything that has come even close to that game. Until now, just everything about the new FM 24 I love. The little touches here and there. I do believe with the correct time and effort, this has the potential to be "The best mobile" game out there. I work long days, long shifts, I don't have time at home for a mess around or long gaming sessions. This is absolutely perfect for me, can play when I want, pick it up where I left off (I leave it running in the background of my phone) Just want the Norwegian and Icelandic league added (I wouldn't even mind paying extra for that) maybe look in the future towards that? You have more of a wide audience now, and with mobiles getting even better over time, you can slowly added even more extras. Great work by yourself and your team, your doing a amazing job, just hope FMM doesn't fizz off, as I can see this series and future series becoming more popular 

Edited by Leedsutd87
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6 hours ago, RSeven said:

What I expect is that more roles and more team instructions will be put in mobile version. (For me, I'd like old version of FMH with team instruction, individual instruction, who is allowed to long shot, who can hold up the ball...)

Behind the scenes this is pretty much what the 'roles' do - would being able to create 'customizable' roles be sufficient for your purposes? (just thinking out loud, not promising anything in the short term I'm afraid).

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And so glad you managed to sort the IFs out, my current IF has 13 goals in 22 games. Abit more real, as last year, you were lucky if you had 5 goals in them. I understand you only have so much to play with, ovs a mobile game. But its streets ahead of other mobile games. For me this is the number 1 mobile game out there. I tried the PS5 version and the FM on switch. It's just abit to much for me to get my head around. I have remote play on my phone for the PS5, alot of details, and I like it simple. Hence CM 03/04 is very close to the game I play on mobile. 

Just a quick one Marc, do you reckon you could add, say a your goes into the red, bankrupt etc, could you add the minus 10 points system? Or 3 points like real life? I'm currently Southend, and love starting with minus 10 points. Would be ace if this affected clubs that go into the red, would add that, extra realisim 

Edited by Leedsutd87
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2 hours ago, Leedsutd87 said:

Just a quick one Marc, do you reckon you could add, say a your goes into the red, bankrupt etc, could you add the minus 10 points system? Or 3 points like real life? I'm currently Southend, and love starting with minus 10 points. Would be ace if this affected clubs that go into the red, would add that, extra realisim 

That's actually on my 'future plans' list already - you probably notice that this is supported in the game (some clubs start with such penalties) and I introduced an 'insolvency' financial state a version or two back, next step on that route is point deductions and the like ... so what this space in a future version (unlikely to make an update because of the amount of testing/work required to get it operational*).

*As usual please don't take my vague 'plans' as being set in stone, it is altogether possible something horrible rears its head and prevents this happening for technical or other reasons for a specific version ... until we announce a feature set for a particular version of the game, nothing is 100% certain.

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13 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

That's actually on my 'future plans' list already - you probably notice that this is supported in the game (some clubs start with such penalties) and I introduced an 'insolvency' financial state a version or two back, next step on that route is point deductions and the like ... so what this space in a future version (unlikely to make an update because of the amount of testing/work required to get it operational*).

*As usual please don't take my vague 'plans' as being set in stone, it is altogether possible something horrible rears its head and prevents this happening for technical or other reasons for a specific version ... until we announce a feature set for a particular version of the game, nothing is 100% certain.

Interesting. Have you ever considered a monthly financial approach like in the old CM2 or CM97/98? i.e. Include income from season tickets, regular tickets, TV money and so on as well as outgoings and bonuses etc? This isn't a criticism, just curious. The current system is effective but it seems an area where you could quite quickly add some realism? Or does it just get too complex or too easy to game?

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On 15/11/2023 at 04:47, Marc Vaughan said:

There are licensing issues with using a historic database sadly (which is a shame as I  have a personal collection of all the Rothman guides from the 70's just in case that ever changes :)).

I think done right it could be quite interesting, although as Pete mentions it may be somewhat too easy unless the players 'come in' and then randomly develop according to chance and fortune so you might be end up in the alternative universe where one of my old team-mates from the Brighton University league hadn't broken his leg and had to drop out of the Manchester United youth team (in which case our team back then would have been even worse than it already was ;) ).

Indeed - I think the only way it would "work' is one-season challenges with limited transfers. But that takes the team-building fun out of the game.

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3 hours ago, Pete1234 said:

Indeed - I think the only way it would "work' is one-season challenges with limited transfers. But that takes the team-building fun out of the game.

I don't know, I think it would be great. Presumably it would be using the original databases without any adjustments to PA etc. That means the young player who you expect to have high PA because they became a legend in real life might actually flop in the game! The old databases aren't always accurate. It also means that those of us steeped in CM/FM/FMM lore could go back and use those legendary wonderkids again. I'll be signing the Freddys thanks very much (Adu and Guarin)! What could be better! 

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2 hours ago, RSeven said:

Regarding PA, I like the way of FMM. More random for young kids (<24) than PC version. Only minimum kids are fixed PA. So always I can find surprise in my youth team. And I also enjoyed the PA of kids will increased sometime. 

I'm glad you like that - the idea of the PA 'changing' sometimes is that it means you'll very occassionally find a late bloomer pop-up at a club and surprise people, such as Vardy irl

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 15/11/2023 at 21:36, Leedsutd87 said:

And so glad you managed to sort the IFs out, my current IF has 13 goals in 22 games. Abit more real, as last year, you were lucky if you had 5 goals in them. 

But... HOW??? My IFs are almost always end up crossing the ball to the hopeless lone striker, when I hope them to be my alternative outlet of goals in case my striker got bullied in the center.

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11 hours ago, Blancos said:

But... HOW??? My IFs are almost always end up crossing the ball to the hopeless lone striker, when I hope them to be my alternative outlet of goals in case my striker got bullied in the center.

My if last season got 19 goals, all about a good formation 

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18 hours ago, Blancos said:

But... HOW??? My IFs are almost always end up crossing the ball to the hopeless lone striker, when I hope them to be my alternative outlet of goals in case my striker got bullied in the center.

Can you message me a screenshot of your inside forward, as well as tactics/formation ... if you want an IF who scores then make sure he's got the selfishness required to go solo ... low teamwork and make sure his shooting is higher than his passing skills ideally. The last thing you want if you're wanting someone to finish is a team-player who prefers to make others look good ;)
(also doesn't hurt if the IF has some ability in a striking position, not just on the wing)

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4 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

if you want an IF who scores then make sure he's got the selfishness required to go solo

WOW... I've never thought of that 😲. I was always just assuming that because football is a team sport, the higher the Teamwork the better. 13 is the lowest Teamwork in my team's first XI.

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4 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

make sure his shooting is higher than his passing skills ideally.

Hmmm... I see. Only 2 in my team have that: Joselu and Rodrygo, and only Rodrygo had positioned in flanks. Still, his goals came from his time in FC slot, not in FL/FR/AMR/AML.

(Side topic: While I can agree with that "the lower the teamwork -> he's selfish -> wants the glory for himself -> shoots more than pass" concept, I also must argue that putting low Teamwork as one requirement for IFs to shoot more is just too harsh, imo. They're forwards, it's their main job to finish the team moves with shots. TW can be a factor, I agree. But it should be a very small one, especially for forwards. Or at least, give us the capability to give instructions for specific individuals to shoot more, like in the main version).

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These are my current, basic tactic settings. But I've tried many things to force my IFs to cut inside and shoot more, including positioned them in FL/FR slots with IF role, or even switch on the Shoot On Sight, etc... just to see if those made them do what I want. No luck so far.

My main problem is I set them this way (right footed on the left, left footed on the right) specifically because I want them to shoot when they cut inside, instead of wasting crossings to my often-surrounded lone striker. I want them to be finishers first (share the load with the spearhead), providers later. If I want them to mainly cross, I would swap them around.

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12 hours ago, Blancos said:(Side topic: While I can agree with that "the lower the teamwork -> he's selfish -> wants the glory for himself -> shoots more than pass" concept, I also must argue that putting low Teamwork as one requirement for IFs to shoot more is just too harsh, imo. They're forwards, it's their main job to finish the team moves with shots. TW can be a factor, I agree. But it should be a very small one, especially for forwards. Or at least, give us the capability to give instructions for specific individuals to shoot more, like in the main version).

 

Just to clarify 'teamwork' isn't the ONLY aspect involved, but it does contribute - for instance some strikers are all about scoring and will shoot even if a team-mate is in a better position arguably, others will be happy to hand the glory to another and help the team.

One thing I noticed in your tactic is 'work into box' - it is possible this might be cause some of this because its telling the team to play the ball into the box, so if they cut inside and a striker is in the box already it'll be encouraging them to 'work the ball into the box' via. him potentially (can't say for certain without your game - but its a possible, if I wanted IF's to score I'd probably turn that off and leave it be, or turn on 'shoot on sight' to make them take a crack as soon as they get a sight on goal ... then have your forward look for rebounds?).

PS - With the team you have available I'm betting that regardless of who is scoring goals (or not), you're not struggling too hard for results?

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2 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

some strikers are all about scoring and will shoot even if a team-mate is in a better position arguably

Cristiano, in the first time when you introduced Inside Forward to be a feature in FM, is the first thing to come in my mind the second I read your comment there. God dank... I did the opposite back then: how to reduce the amount of ambitious (if not mindless) shootings that guy did 🤣.

2 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

One thing I noticed in your tactic is 'work into box' - it is possible this might be cause some of this because its telling the team to play the ball into the box, so if they cut inside and a striker is in the box already it'll be encouraging them to 'work the ball into the box' via. him potentially

That's my mind processing also. The tactics I've showed you is the basis, the match starting one, because I think it's better that I do the "possesion and probe" first so I can see how much room I can get if I need to take riskier options later (such as tick the WIB off, or turn Shoot On Sight on, etc). Unfortunately, the IFs were still act more like Wingers than Forwards when I turned WIB off...even when I desperately turned SOS on.

 

2 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

With the team you have available I'm betting that regardless of who is scoring goals (or not), you're not struggling too hard for results?

Ah... With this question, I think I wanna clarify what bother me the most about this IF topic. Yes, I didn't ask because I desperately need goals. I asked because I love to fully understand FM's intricate tactic buttons, in hope that once I understood how those work, I know how to translate "what I have in mind" into "which buttons & sliders I have to manipulate".

So yeah, it's not the goals I directly need from those IFs. I need to them do whatever I want them to do! In my case, I just want them to:

1. To cut inside like IFs, not hugging the lines. That's my Wingbacks' job, not theirs.

2. To get near and do short passes like the others if they need to, not uselessly do crosses from out wide. Crossing is not my style, plus I think most of my forwards are not good in the air.

3. To shoot more like forwards. I set them that way from the start so they can SHOOT with their better foot, just like I set my Wingbacks up for CROSSING. Give me plenty of shots, because I can see obviously that in my team's current stature, almost every other teams bring their bus on the pitch! To continously force the passes towards lone target between swarm of desperate bodies is an ignorance (if not dumb) thing.

 

Just so you know, these mental exercises are why I LOVE CM/FM. So I appreciate every efforts you developers made to show that you wanna help us out of our frustrations! Thank you👍🙏

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2. To get near and do short passes like the others if they need to, not uselessly do crosses from out wide. Crossing is not my style, plus I think most of my forwards are not good in the air.

Just one thing to bear in mind a lot of crosses, especially if a player has cut inside aren't 'high' they're more fizzed in for someone to finish or hoping for a bad touch from a defender - Brighton do these all the time in real-life and the only striker we have who is good in the air is Evan Ferguson really (and frankly he's just great at everything, if he can just stay fit for a while).

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8 hours ago, Marc Vaughan said:

Just one thing to bear in mind a lot of crosses, especially if a player has cut inside aren't 'high' they're more fizzed in for someone to finish or hoping for a bad touch from a defender - Brighton do these all the time in real-life and the only striker we have who is good in the air is Evan Ferguson really (and frankly he's just great at everything, if he can just stay fit for a while).

Ow really? I see. We can't see the height of passes/crosses in 2D.

I think I just get frustrated by my incapability to tell my players what they should/shouldn't do. If I can, all I wanna say to them is "YOU'RE TERRIBLE IN THE AIR, ****ERS! KEEP THE BALL DOWN, GOD DAMMIT!" 🤣.

 

Just curious... Do you guys have a plan to make an comprehensive official guide specifically for FMM24? Something like TT&F, maybe? 😁. Maaan, how I love to read that guide, even on this days 😍.

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5 hours ago, Blancos said:

Ow really? I see. We can't see the height of passes/crosses in 2D.

Yeah I'll look at that at some point - we used to make the ball 'bigger' when it rose but because of the small mobile screens that didn't work as well as on PC, now resolutions and screen size are larger we can probably revisit it.

(in general if your wide players have good decisions they'll take into account the aerial ability of the target and play to feet if poor)

5 hours ago, Blancos said:

I think I just get frustrated by my incapability to tell my players what they should/shouldn't do. If I can, all I wanna say to them is "YOU'RE TERRIBLE IN THE AIR, ****ERS! KEEP THE BALL DOWN, GOD DAMMIT!" 🤣.

lol - you sound like a real-life manager now :D

5 hours ago, Blancos said:

Just curious... Do you guys have a plan to make an comprehensive official guide specifically for FMM24? Something like TT&F, maybe? 😁. Maaan, how I love to read that guide, even on this days 😍.

I've written a few such guides in the past, but I've found in recent years that some of the ones done by fans are at least as good as mine (and if anyone writes one and wants me to collaborate/give feedback on it then I'd be happy to) ... tbh I'm somewhat busy these days writing documentation for the game as we've a fair few newer staff now and thus its important that the design documentation is fully up to date because its a hugely complex app (1,000,000 lines of code and counting ;) ).

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1 minute ago, Marc Vaughan said:

 but because of the small mobile screens that didn't work as well as on PC, now resolutions and screen size are larger we can probably revisit it.

While we're at this subject, can we have a bit smaller dots representing players? Not for scale or any aesthetical reason, but tactical. With dots and ball that big, the penalty box seemed too crowded most of the times. It basically suffocated me, or even feel a bit claustrophobic, especially with instructions that resemble maneuvering inside that crowd (I don't feel the same way when watching FM in 3D, because I could still see gaps the players could use). FMM doesn't have to have 3D in it, or doesn't have to have perfect scale. Just be reasonably smaller would suffice.

22 minutes ago, Marc Vaughan said:

lol - you sound like a real-life manager now :D

Hahaha... That means your game successfully "bringing the Pep out of you"... There it is, your FM25 official tagline. Patent it for me, please 😁.

27 minutes ago, Marc Vaughan said:

 because its a hugely complex app (1,000,000 lines of code and counting ;) ).

I see. We are just the players, who demanded too much from you at times, while we often forget that to you, that game is a job, a living, not an entertainment like to us 😁. No worries, man... I'll try to look around for some good ones. Thank you!

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21 minutes ago, Blancos said:

While we're at this subject, can we have a bit smaller dots representing players? Not for scale or any aesthetical reason, but tactical. With dots and ball that big, the penalty box seemed too crowded most of the times. It basically suffocated me, or even feel a bit claustrophobic, especially with instructions that resemble maneuvering inside that crowd (I don't feel the same way when watching FM in 3D, because I could still see gaps the players could use). FMM doesn't have to have 3D in it, or doesn't have to have perfect scale. Just be reasonably smaller would suffice.

The sizing is purely down to ease of reading and representation, please do bear in mind that a LOT of devices are fairly small and so things have to be balanced against readability.

We'll keep tweaking such things as time goes on, but take pity on those of us who don't have 20-20 vision ;)

21 minutes ago, Blancos said:

Hahaha... That means your game successfully "bringing the Pep out of you"... There it is, your FM25 official tagline. Patent it for me, please 😁.

lol :D

21 minutes ago, Blancos said:

I see. We are just the players, who demanded too much from you at times, while we often forget that to you, that game is a job, a living, not an entertainment like to us 😁. No worries, man... I'll try to look around for some good ones. Thank you!

Heh - I'm afraid the game is far from 'just a job' for me, I've always been passionate about the game and still enjoy playing it myself :)

When it comes to writing 'guides' though, I've only limited time in the day and do have a family who want to spend time with me for some reason ;)

(I'm also a big fan of allowing our players to express themselves as much as possible by writing content for the game, making suggestions for its future etc. - while I might be involved in making it, the opinions and feedback from users help guide its direction and the more I hear from them the better that guidance is imho :) )

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On 29/11/2023 at 21:49, Marc Vaughan said:

 things have to be balanced against readability.

We'll keep tweaking such things as time goes on, but take pity on those of us who don't have 20-20 vision ;)

I understood that. I'm just making a point to the pros of making dots smaller, outside of mere cosmetic or OCD reasons. Right now, a player passing towards 4 dots in front of the goal made me "He's CLEARLY marked by 3 opponents, and you still make a pass to him instead of shooting. ARE YOU BLIND?"... while there might be some understandable spaces between those 3 markers for the striker to exploit in the real scale.

On 29/11/2023 at 21:49, Marc Vaughan said:

When it comes to writing 'guides' though, I've only limited time in the day and do have a family who want to spend time with me for some reason ;)

(I'm also a big fan of allowing our players to express themselves as much as possible by writing content for the game, making suggestions for its future etc. - while I might be involved in making it, the opinions and feedback from users help guide its direction and the more I hear from them the better that guidance is imho :) )

Yeah... But those guides would still be USER's guide, and by that, I meant non official/uncertain/unconfirmed/can be right as can be wrong. In fact, if we retraced my assumptions of tactics we've recently discussed (mentality & instructions, IF, etc), most of those assumptions came from "comprehensive" guides that were around FM forums for decades. Little example: iirc, my "mentality affects my team instructions" assumption, came from once famous TT&F guide, which indicated that turning the mentality slider up PLUS turning the tempo slider up, would result in the on-pitch tempo being too fast than what we really wanted (because of the double adding), which is not true according to your interpretation.

I sincerely don't mean to contradict anyone against each other, pardon me. This is just my "journey to seek for the truth" 😄.

 

 

Edited:

I just found something that can make my point clearer:

Picsart_23-12-01_00-30-52-180.thumb.jpg.693ebe1577fed48790eca4e7763d69eb.jpg

In these photos, we can see there are some gaps, so we won't hold it against the player if they decided to pass through (FM scene) or took a shot (Rodrygo vs Napoli). In FMM, the scene would show how crowded the defender dots  are in front of our player. Yet, he still decided to force a pass or a shot through, and we thought he made bad decision. While in fact, we're the one who looked at wrong presentation 😁.

 

Edited by Blancos
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