would you consider that the fact that 2 of the same role is too "op" in fm 23 is a "glitch or bug" of the match engine

[deviljaven]

I just noticed that most tactics in popular sites like fm arena always use the 2 advanced forwards and something else like 2 wingers or 2 dm's with the same role and i was just wondering what the general opinion was on this.

[santy001]

It's just using the team set-up as you wish. By having the same role/mentality on either side of the dividing line you can create a similar threat no matter which way your team is building up. Yet often times it comes with the drawback of lacking alternatives if the opposition is set up well to defend against this.

Often times there's a lot of murkiness surrounding the real effectiveness of tactics. Some people share the success of their tactics when its been put through a battery of tests where the team is always at 100% fitness or with players set to a certain CA/attribute spread and it can result in a lot overperforming in these sterile conditions.

[eXistenZ]

10 hours ago, santy001 said:

Often times there's a lot of murkiness surrounding the real effectiveness of tactics. Some people share the success of their tactics when its been put through a battery of tests where the team is always at 100% fitness or with players set to a certain CA/attribute spread and it can result in a lot overperforming in these sterile conditions.

This is something ive been wondering about a lot. What would you say is the best way to test a tactic in basicly a lab like environment?

Most tactics I see online are tested by going on holiday for an entire season, but im sceptical about that. feels like you're mostly testing the assman capabilities rather than your tactic

 

[Andrew Marines]

1 ora fa, eXistenZ ha scritto:

This is something ive been wondering about a lot. What would you say is the best way to test a tactic in basicly a lab like environment?

Most tactics I see online are tested by going on holiday for an entire season, but im sceptical about that. feels like you're mostly testing the assman capabilities rather than your tactic

 

The moment you select "Use this tactic" your assman can't change anything. The only thing he can change are the players on the field. If you do that test a lot of times you can see if your tactic performs as you except.

However, If you wanna have a good dataset, you gotta create two teams with literally the same attributes and make them match against each other in a neutral field. One of the teams will have the tactic you wanna test and the other another one you wanna see if it is effective against.

Repeat that match Like 10 times and then change the opposition's tactic. you'll see how your tactic performs against different styles

Edited July 17, 2023 by Andrew Marines

[santy001]

8 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

What would you say is the best way to test a tactic in basicly a lab like environment?

I don't know the best way I have to admit, but some considerations.

If you play a high intensity tactic and have your team locked in at 100% match fitness/condition - you're heavily skewing the results by omitting what happens when players are going into games at 90% or with fatigue levels rising. 

If you normalise opposition squads in some way you're testing how your tactic performs against teams who may well use different formations but following a similar logic. So if every team in a league is given the same reputation, they're treating you as a comparable opponent rather than what the reality may be for your team. 

Realistically I can only think that you'd need to play the same season through hundreds of times to flatten out the impact of injuries, good form/bad form and other variables. No one will typically have the time for that though. But there are a lot of caveats. 

[enigmatic]

23 hours ago, deviljaven said:

I just noticed that most tactics in popular sites like fm arena always use the 2 advanced forwards and something else like 2 wingers or 2 dm's with the same role and i was just wondering what the general opinion was on this.

I think a weakness of the match engine (and opposition tactics) is probably fairer than "glitch" or "bug".

Having two, good fast strikers playing on the last line of defence all the time is pretty strong offensively IRL, but real life managers have straightforward ways of dealing it (drop the defensive line, leave a fullback or DM back to prevent 2 on 2s) and are better at exploiting you having two forwards that basically don't defend at all. 

It's harder to write behavioural logic to make two centre backs do a good job against two players (who are normally quicker than them) set to try the relatively simple approach of constantly trying to run in behind them, than it is to make deeper lying strikers really clever with their linkup play. There are ways to deal with two AFs (and so often you'll find two AF formations that were unstoppable in one patch are a lot less effective in the next), but then people start complaining about lack of through balls or strikers not getting enough touches or one on one conversions being too low...

Sites like FM Arena also skew heavily towards very aggressive setups anyway, since (i) nobody adjusts tactics for sides that really need a goal, like someone playing a balanced setup would in normal game play and (ii) the tests are on overall league performance, so the tactic completely failing to deal with some opponents isn't a big deal if it picks up 3 points often enough

 

9 hours ago, eXistenZ said:

This is something ive been wondering about a lot. What would you say is the best way to test a tactic in basicly a lab like environment?

Most tactics I see online are tested by going on holiday for an entire season, but im sceptical about that. feels like you're mostly testing the assman capabilities rather than your tactic

The online tests generally force the assman to use the tactic and the third party websites that are serious about it also tend to fix morale and reset fitness at the end of games etc  

(If you don't, the performance can be really volatile especially when testing with mid-table sides. Win a few games in a row and sky-high morale will carry them through, lose a few and they won't hit a barn door with a banjo no matter how much possession they get)

Not having any sort of tactical change in match or between games does tend to bias them a bit towards tactics that need no adjustment against sides that park the bus or play keep ball against you (attacking, high pressing), not worrying about fitness makes gegenpress even more powerful, and they also tend to be biased towards stuff that works with most players in that position (e.g  they set low crosses because most strikers are better at beating defenders to them, but  that's probably not true if you've got someone like Mitrovic)

But the best tactic is the one for your particular XI against a particular opponent in a particular match situation, and you can't test that even by saving and reloading

 

[eXistenZ]

23 hours ago, enigmatic said:

The online tests generally force the assman to use the tactic and the third party websites that are serious about it also tend to fix morale and reset fitness at the end of games etc  

(If you don't, the performance can be really volatile especially when testing with mid-table sides. Win a few games in a row and sky-high morale will carry them through, lose a few and they won't hit a barn door with a banjo no matter how much possession they get)

isnt resetting morale and fitness a major benefit in itself? What good is a test that doesnt take into account that you're running your players into the ground and that they are exhausted by December? Or that your players just shrugg off getitng beaten 5-0 by arsenal and chelsea ina row?

Do they at least reset fitness and morale for the AI? Cause offcours a tactic that can consistently field their best XI with best morale is gonna perform good.

[enigmatic]

40 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

isnt resetting morale and fitness a major benefit in itself? What good is a test that doesnt take into account that you're running your players into the ground and that they are exhausted by December? Or that your players just shrugg off getitng beaten 5-0 by arsenal and chelsea ina row?

Do they at least reset fitness and morale for the AI? Cause offcours a tactic that can consistently field their best XI with best morale is gonna perform good.

I tend to agree with this (I did say not having to worry about fitness biases it towards gegenpress!) although there are non-tactical solutions to optimise fitness and morale like big squads, training rests and overusing the "praise" functions 

tbh, holding pre match morale constant at a medium level probably hurts good tactics more than it harms them since overperforming tactics tend to result in good morale and good aggressive tactics with maxed out morale really overperform. But yes, it does mean a different experience and a bit more resilience to getting spanked.

(I think they do tend to reset fitness and morale for the AI to)