Influence on and off the pitch. Trying to unpack this mystery.

[vcpinheiro14]

From the manual: Some attributes are defined as ‘Absolute’, and some as ‘Relative’. Absolute attributes are those that are locked to an individual and can’t be trained quite as easily, such as Determination and Work Rate. These are generally innate attributes specific to individuals and typically only develop as the player matures off the field. Relative attributes are those that can be compared to other players in the football world and can be improved through training and player development. Physical and Technical skill sets are the main areas in which you’ll find relative attributes. 
Mentoring: Young players can develop by working closely, during training, with a more experienced team-mate or team-mates within their squad. Their mental attributes and Player Traits are the only areas affected. Induction: Players that are asked to work together in mentoring groups might pick up personality traits from each other as well as playing traits.
Is there a specific attribute I could train in a player to increase his work ethic (workrate + teamwork)? @Marc Vaughan: "You can either mentor people or..."

So, we knew for sure that "personality" attributes could be mentored, but mental attributes is a new discovery for me. In this true? Which mental attributes can be affected in this way?

@Seb Wassell: Highly Influential players influence others on each Squad. Eg: 13-14 Determination is not bad at all, but if you want 18-19 across the board you'll need to stop those players being influenced by others.

A SI staff said in the Football Manager show that Coaches's personality have a slight influence on the players' personalities, and that the Unit that player is in affects the player's partnership.

From this can I assume that there are "social bubbles" that circles influence groups off the pitch besides mentoring, like Units and Squad groups?

What about on the pitch? There is a Player style called Leader that will be so even if the Leadership attribute is minimal, so what kind of leader is this and what attributes correlate with this label?

@Marc Vaughan: "It is worth realising that a captain also has a slight influence over the teams behavior on the pitch, so a defensive minded captain will make the team a little more defensively tight, a more attacking captain will encourage creativity etc. Teamwork isn't a huge requirement for a captain as that indicates how much a player 'pulls' for his team in terms of distribution/selfishness in that regard HOWEVER you can have an effective captain who acts selfishly on a pitch but inspires others through his workrate, professionalism and dedication, this is most commonly found with strikers who often have to be 'non-team players' to be effective goal scorers."

Leadership is the player's ability to affect events or other players. Players with high Leadership will be influential on the pitch and team-mates will tend to rally around these players. Teamwork is the second attribute ordered at the Captain view screen after Leadership. Neil Brock: "Determination is a useful attribute for a captain to have but it's the leadership and teamwork attributes which have the biggest relevancy."

From this can i assume that the influence is not only about motivation and the body languages but also about playing mental attributes and even mentality? What is the range of this influence, near players or the entire team? 

[Marc Vaughan]

1 hour ago, vcpinheiro14 said:

From the manual: Some attributes are defined as ‘Absolute’, and some as ‘Relative’. Absolute attributes are those that are locked to an individual and can’t be trained quite as easily, such as Determination and Work Rate. These are generally innate attributes specific to individuals and typically only develop as the player matures off the field. Relative attributes are those that can be compared to other players in the football world and can be improved through training and player development. Physical and Technical skill sets are the main areas in which you’ll find relative attributes. 
Mentoring: Young players can develop by working closely, during training, with a more experienced team-mate or team-mates within their squad. Their mental attributes and Player Traits are the only areas affected. Induction: Players that are asked to work together in mentoring groups might pick up personality traits from each other as well as playing traits.
Is there a specific attribute I could train in a player to increase his work ethic (workrate + teamwork)? @Marc Vaughan: "You can either mentor people or..."

So, we knew for sure that "personality" attributes could be mentored, but mental attributes is a new discovery for me. In this true? Which mental attributes can be affected in this way?

@Seb Wassell: Highly Influential players influence others on each Squad. Eg: 13-14 Determination is not bad at all, but if you want 18-19 across the board you'll need to stop those players being influenced by others.

A SI staff said in the Football Manager show that Coaches's personality have a slight influence on the players' personalities, and that the Unit that player is in affects the player's partnership.

From this can I assume that there are "social bubbles" that circles influence groups off the pitch besides mentoring, like Units and Squad groups?

What about on the pitch? There is a Player style called Leader that will be so even if the Leadership attribute is minimal, so what kind of leader is this and what attributes correlate with this label?

@Marc Vaughan: "It is worth realising that a captain also has a slight influence over the teams behavior on the pitch, so a defensive minded captain will make the team a little more defensively tight, a more attacking captain will encourage creativity etc. Teamwork isn't a huge requirement for a captain as that indicates how much a player 'pulls' for his team in terms of distribution/selfishness in that regard HOWEVER you can have an effective captain who acts selfishly on a pitch but inspires others through his workrate, professionalism and dedication, this is most commonly found with strikers who often have to be 'non-team players' to be effective goal scorers."

Leadership is the player's ability to affect events or other players. Players with high Leadership will be influential on the pitch and team-mates will tend to rally around these players. Teamwork is the second attribute ordered at the Captain view screen after Leadership. Neil Brock: "Determination is a useful attribute for a captain to have but it's the leadership and teamwork attributes which have the biggest relevancy."

From this can i assume that the influence is not only about motivation and the body languages but also about playing mental attributes and even mentality? What is the range of this influence, near players or the entire team? 

Do bear in mind that my comments were with regards to the 'mobile' game and may or may not apply to full-fat FM (tbh I'm not certain as I haven't worked on its codebase in several years) ... please be careful not to over-generalise things by taking a piece of information from FMM and combining it with another game.

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, vcpinheiro14 said:

From the manual: Some attributes are defined as ‘Absolute’, and some as ‘Relative’. Absolute attributes are those that are locked to an individual and can’t be trained quite as easily, such as Determination and Work Rate. These are generally innate attributes specific to individuals and typically only develop as the player matures off the field. Relative attributes are those that can be compared to other players in the football world and can be improved through training and player development. Physical and Technical skill sets are the main areas in which you’ll find relative attributes. 
Mentoring: Young players can develop by working closely, during training, with a more experienced team-mate or team-mates within their squad. Their mental attributes and Player Traits are the only areas affected. Induction: Players that are asked to work together in mentoring groups might pick up personality traits from each other as well as playing traits.
Is there a specific attribute I could train in a player to increase his work ethic (workrate + teamwork)? @Marc Vaughan: "You can either mentor people or..."

So, we knew for sure that "personality" attributes could be mentored, but mental attributes is a new discovery for me. In this true? Which mental attributes can be affected in this way?

@Seb Wassell: Highly Influential players influence others on each Squad. Eg: 13-14 Determination is not bad at all, but if you want 18-19 across the board you'll need to stop those players being influenced by others.

A SI staff said in the Football Manager show that Coaches's personality have a slight influence on the players' personalities, and that the Unit that player is in affects the player's partnership.

From this can I assume that there are "social bubbles" that circles influence groups off the pitch besides mentoring, like Units and Squad groups?

What about on the pitch? There is a Player style called Leader that will be so even if the Leadership attribute is minimal, so what kind of leader is this and what attributes correlate with this label?

@Marc Vaughan: "It is worth realising that a captain also has a slight influence over the teams behavior on the pitch, so a defensive minded captain will make the team a little more defensively tight, a more attacking captain will encourage creativity etc. Teamwork isn't a huge requirement for a captain as that indicates how much a player 'pulls' for his team in terms of distribution/selfishness in that regard HOWEVER you can have an effective captain who acts selfishly on a pitch but inspires others through his workrate, professionalism and dedication, this is most commonly found with strikers who often have to be 'non-team players' to be effective goal scorers."

Leadership is the player's ability to affect events or other players. Players with high Leadership will be influential on the pitch and team-mates will tend to rally around these players. Teamwork is the second attribute ordered at the Captain view screen after Leadership. Neil Brock: "Determination is a useful attribute for a captain to have but it's the leadership and teamwork attributes which have the biggest relevancy."

From this can i assume that the influence is not only about motivation and the body languages but also about playing mental attributes and even mentality? What is the range of this influence, near players or the entire team? 

They're not absolute. Fining your players will improve their determination and work rate making them by far the two easiest attributes to improve in the game.

Determination impacts off the field, work rate impacts on the field. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Cloud9

[vcpinheiro14]

53 minutos atrás, Marc Vaughan disse:

Do bear in mind that my comments were with regards to the 'mobile' game and may or may not apply to full-fat FM (tbh I'm not certain as I haven't worked on its codebase in several years) ... please be careful not to over-generalise things by taking a piece of information from FMM and combining it with another game.

 I didn't know there was a core difference, its good to make this clear... maybe some more things could be too 

[Marc Vaughan]

3 hours ago, vcpinheiro14 said:

 I didn't know there was a core difference, its good to make this clear... maybe some more things could be too 

They're two entirely seperate game engines - so there will always be differences between them with regards to how they work (although in general there is a lot of similarity I want to make sure people aren't accidentally mislead when I'm not 'sure').

[gunnerfan]

4 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Determination impacts off the field, work rate impacts on the field. 

I'm not clear on what a player would be impacting off the field, unless it's the atmosphere in the locker room or overall team cohesion.

One other question: if teamwork doesn't have a significant impact on a team captain's leadership abilities, why does the game only show "teamwork" along with "leadership"? That suggests that those are the two most important attributes for a team captain.

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, gunnerfan said:

I'm not clear on what a player would be impacting off the field, unless it's the atmosphere in the locker room or overall team cohesion.

One other question: if teamwork doesn't have a significant impact on a team captain's leadership abilities, why does the game only show "teamwork" along with "leadership"? That suggests that those are the two most important attributes for a team captain.

Determination is basically a players own ability to overcome adversity which comes down to bouncing back from an injury, and more importantly impacts their ability to reach their potential ability. It's not super important as other hidden attributes (professionalism) are much more important to development. Low determination (under 10) on a youth player can be a real issue. In terms of on a captain... I'd say minimal, might slightly impact other players determination over time. 

Teamwork impacts a players ability to follow instructions on field, my guess is that the captain boosts others teamwork on the pitch around him. Leadership is the big one though, where he can talk players out of problems off the pitch and rally them on field if you're getting battered. The captain's personality seems pretty impactful on the squad so that's just as important as the leadership in my opinion (esp if you've got a young squad). 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Cloud9

[herne79]

9 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Determination impacts off the field, work rate impacts on the field. 

Determination impacts on the field too.  From the online manual: “A commitment to succeed both on and off the pitch. A determined player gives everything in order to win.”

4 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

It's not super important as other hidden attributes (professionalism) are much more important to development.

SI have repeatedly stated (and debunked other claims) that Professionalism, Ambition and Determination are all essentially equal for player development.  For example:

Quote

Determination, Ambition and Professionalism all contribute exactly the same amount towards the progression score. However a certain progression score does not guarantee a certain level of progression. A progression score only gives the player a certain chance of achieving a certain level of progression. This chance ranges anywhere from 0% to 70%. As such two players with identical attributes could develop very differently. Similar two players with very different attributes could develop identically. In this way it is not possible to reliably test a single attribute's impact on progression through simply collating and monitoring a data set.

Link.

[Cloud9]

47 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Determination impacts on the field too.  From the online manual: “A commitment to succeed both on and off the pitch. A determined player gives everything in order to win.”

SI have repeatedly stated (and debunked other claims) that Professionalism, Ambition and Determination are all essentially equal for player development.  For example:

Link.

While determination is easily changed through warning/fining/mentoring the hidden attributes are much more "fixed." Professionalism impacts training, games, development in a major way. There's a reason "fairly professional" is a super personality and "fairly determined" is one of the worst.

Again I'm not saying determination is not important, but easily fixable if it's not too low on a young player. I've quite literally said in the next line a young player with low determination is a problem.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Cloud9

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

While determination is easily changed through warning/fining/mentoring the hidden attributes are much more "fixed." Professionalism impacts training, games, development in a major way. There's a reason "fairly professional" is a super personality and "fairly determined" is one of the worst.

Again I'm not saying determination is not important, but easily fixable if it's not too low on a young player. I've quite literally said in the next line a young player with low determination is a problem.

 

I know.  I wasn’t responding to any of that nor was it my point 👍.

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

I know.  I wasn’t responding to any of that nor was it my point 👍.

All good, how do you value ambition in your saves? 

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

All good, how do you value ambition in your saves? 

For player development I’d like to value it equally with Det and Prof but realistically speaking finding players with roughly equal values in all 3 can be difficult.  So generally speaking I’m ok with players who have 2 of the 3 categories, although I’ll always prioritise Determination due to it’s on field impact in addition to development.  Amb and especially Prof I’m sure also have on pitch impacts but for me they lag behind Det in that respect.

Having said that, looking at attributes in isolation in this manner can be misleading as the underlying coding is so complex that other factors can quite easily make up for any shortfalls we may find.  For example if a player lacks Determination, their Professionalism, Work Rate, Aggression and Stamina could largely hide potential on pitch issues.  Or, back on topic, Leadership and Teamwork can help a captain more than Determination.

It can be a bit of a rabbit hole and too easily people can get caught up in chasing the rabbit, but practically speaking I find it’s overthinking things.  So long as we don’t fill our teams full of Balotellis we’ll be alright .