Feedback to my 4231

[ThomasHK1979]

I cant decide which role i think is the best for my AMC. I switch between SS and Treq.
What would you do?

[SpecialOne Miko]

Since you have a DLF in front of him, I would use a role who gonna attack the space left by the striker. My first choice would be a SS, but I would consider AM(A) also, depending  of the type of player I have.

The TQ could  work too, but you have to watch for the movements of the two players since the DLF could drop in the TQ space.

[Cloud9]

10 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

I cant decide which role i think is the best for my AMC. I switch between SS and Treq.
What would you do?

I'd go for SS, Treq means you're giving a free role to one of the less talented players in the team.

Not what you asked: but you've got no holding midfielder at the moment which is gonna bite ya.

[ThomasHK1979]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

I'd go for SS, Treq means you're giving a free role to one of the less talented players in the team.

Not what you asked: but you've got no holding midfielder at the moment which is gonna bite ya.

DLP is holdning? 

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

DLP is holdning? 

He'd need to be on defend duty to hold position, on support he's getting forward.

For what it's worth, Tonali as BWM will also not hold position. Even if you switch him to a defend duty, he's going to chase everything that moves and get pulled out of position. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Cloud9

[CARRERA]

I would use an AM(a) as your DLF is moving into channels (as your Wingers do). Your Team will benefit from someone staying in the central area. 

[ThomasHK1979]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

He'd need to be on defend duty to hold position, on support he's getting forward.

For what it's worth, Tonali as BWM will also not hold position. Even if you switch him to a defend duty, he's going to chase everything that moves and get pulled out of position. 

If you look at the pre-set instructions a DLP have ticked “hold position”. 

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

If you look at the pre-set instructions a DLP have ticked “hold position”. 

You're playing your double pivot as CM's which is extra greedy (instead of in the traditional DM double pivot). He may have "hold position" but he's not holding. If you read it //  watch it in the game engine, he will go forward and support attacks. A DLP (d) isn't going anywhere except hanging out in front of the back 4. 

The point is your midfield has no structural integrity without one of those guys on defend since no one is staying in position, and it can't be the BWM.

I'd say this problem is even more so if you end up going with the Treq, who will contribute 0 outside of creativity.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Cloud9

[crusadertsar]

4 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

He'd need to be on defend duty to hold position, on support he's getting forward.

For what it's worth, Tonali as BWM will also not hold position. Even if you switch him to a defend duty, he's going to chase everything that moves and get pulled out of position. 

Not really. Even with support duty DLP has "hold position" ticked. So he is a holder role on both Support and Defend duty

[ThomasHK1979]

6 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Not really. Even with support duty DLP has "hold position" ticked. So he is a holder role on both Support and Defend duty

Exactly

[Rashidi]

17 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

He'd need to be on defend duty to hold position, on support he's getting forward.

For what it's worth, Tonali as BWM will also not hold position. Even if you switch him to a defend duty, he's going to chase everything that moves and get pulled out of position. 

I use a DLP BWM combo with a 4231 and its actually very good. The idea here is to be playing higher up the pitch.  With a higher line of engagement and a higher defensive line you are putting a lot of pressure on defences. A DLP on support or defend has the hold position player instruction so he doesnt' drift too high. When playing two roles like that I can put a lot of pressure on systems that use a DMx2, and my favourite role in front of them is actually an AP with roam from position. Now that role can move around and find space, with the two pressing higher the movement of the AP creates issues. 

And this is where I use a Winger on support on one flank and an IF(A) on the other. The winger has great dribbling, acceleration, but I want him to start deeper so I play him on support. When he gets the ball he does take players on. He gives us width that the AP loves to use, thereby giving us numerous tap ins because on the opposite flank I have an IF on attack, this player drives at defences from the halfspaces. He starts out wide then inverts.

In front I switch between a Poacher and an AF, depending on the opposition, If I find that I am in a game which favours quick transitions, maybe the opposition likes to attack me a lot then the W/IF/AF combo is the one I use, because it leads to mayhem. If they want to sit back and defend, then I call on the poacher who keeps the defenders occupied while my AP dictates tempo and the width from the winger and the IF are the primary threats. With the poacher in the box, he's been getting a lot of tap ins because we usually end up switch play on the diagonal

The only reason why I was able to do this was because I favour a style that sits in opponents thirds. I play by forcing them into mistakes.  Whenever I play against a 5221, 532 or a double DM system I can always use the BWM/DLP combination to apply pressure on their defensive mids.

I also use a BWM x 2 combination in my flat 442. Here I leverage off players with drops deep/dictate tempo.  Or I use a BWM(D)/S combo. Either way its also possible. Yes those BWM have a large area of influence, but they are extremely disruptive especially against deep defensive formations. 


The main issue with @ThomasHK1979system is greed , but in attack. You are using a TQ who doesn't always do a good defensive job. My recommendation would be to use a support duty. Then with the double support duties in midfield he has sent an IF on attack with an inverted winger on attack.

Its a system thats set to counter/regroup. But the counter seems to have issues too, you are playing higher up the pitch, but you are telling your DLF to hold up the ball and play it into two roles that will be close to the opposition fullbacks. They will be easy to mark. I would suggest changing the IW to a Winger on attack. Even an IW on attack with the stay wider pi will still be on the shoulder of the fullback because they will always invert in the final third. He is therefore creating congestion for himself.

The easiest fix would be to turn the striker into a PF(A) that way he moves into the channels, set the right AM to winger on attack and play someone who has a right foot there, you could also use a left footed player there too. Now when you play someone there on the flank opposite his preferred foot he will stay wide and play the kind of passes you see with IW or he could cut inside and bring the ball in from wider positions. Its your preference. I personally find that AP(S) are very good at finding space in the final third and moving the attack around. The 4231 vs the 433 is also a mismatch at the moment on the current match engine when you start using the OI tight mark on the opposition DM. If your players have good marking and you are also using an AP, the DMs just get marked out.

If you are worried about controlling the middle third, then DLP(D) till you get more comfortable, but the FB(S) I would probably shift him to a WB(S) so he can keep up and support the BWM, otherwise you might end up seeing a lot of hoofed balls.
 

This turned into one long essay. I am getting too old for this

[ThomasHK1979]

5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I use a DLP BWM combo with a 4231 and its actually very good. The idea here is to be playing higher up the pitch.  With a higher line of engagement and a higher defensive line you are putting a lot of pressure on defences. A DLP on support or defend has the hold position player instruction so he doesnt' drift too high. When playing two roles like that I can put a lot of pressure on systems that use a DMx2, and my favourite role in front of them is actually an AP with roam from position. Now that role can move around and find space, with the two pressing higher the movement of the AP creates issues. 

And this is where I use a Winger on support on one flank and an IF(A) on the other. The winger has great dribbling, acceleration, but I want him to start deeper so I play him on support. When he gets the ball he does take players on. He gives us width that the AP loves to use, thereby giving us numerous tap ins because on the opposite flank I have an IF on attack, this player drives at defences from the halfspaces. He starts out wide then inverts.

In front I switch between a Poacher and an AF, depending on the opposition, If I find that I am in a game which favours quick transitions, maybe the opposition likes to attack me a lot then the W/IF/AF combo is the one I use, because it leads to mayhem. If they want to sit back and defend, then I call on the poacher who keeps the defenders occupied while my AP dictates tempo and the width from the winger and the IF are the primary threats. With the poacher in the box, he's been getting a lot of tap ins because we usually end up switch play on the diagonal

The only reason why I was able to do this was because I favour a style that sits in opponents thirds. I play by forcing them into mistakes.  Whenever I play against a 5221, 532 or a double DM system I can always use the BWM/DLP combination to apply pressure on their defensive mids.

I also use a BWM x 2 combination in my flat 442. Here I leverage off players with drops deep/dictate tempo.  Or I use a BWM(D)/S combo. Either way its also possible. Yes those BWM have a large area of influence, but they are extremely disruptive especially against deep defensive formations. 


The main issue with @ThomasHK1979system is greed , but in attack. You are using a TQ who doesn't always do a good defensive job. My recommendation would be to use a support duty. Then with the double support duties in midfield he has sent an IF on attack with an inverted winger on attack.

Its a system thats set to counter/regroup. But the counter seems to have issues too, you are playing higher up the pitch, but you are telling your DLF to hold up the ball and play it into two roles that will be close to the opposition fullbacks. They will be easy to mark. I would suggest changing the IW to a Winger on attack. Even an IW on attack with the stay wider pi will still be on the shoulder of the fullback because they will always invert in the final third. He is therefore creating congestion for himself.

The easiest fix would be to turn the striker into a PF(A) that way he moves into the channels, set the right AM to winger on attack and play someone who has a right foot there, you could also use a left footed player there too. Now when you play someone there on the flank opposite his preferred foot he will stay wide and play the kind of passes you see with IW or he could cut inside and bring the ball in from wider positions. Its your preference. I personally find that AP(S) are very good at finding space in the final third and moving the attack around. The 4231 vs the 433 is also a mismatch at the moment on the current match engine when you start using the OI tight mark on the opposition DM. If your players have good marking and you are also using an AP, the DMs just get marked out.

If you are worried about controlling the middle third, then DLP(D) till you get more comfortable, but the FB(S) I would probably shift him to a WB(S) so he can keep up and support the BWM, otherwise you might end up seeing a lot of hoofed balls.
 

This turned into one long essay. I am getting too old for this

Fantastic answer thank you. I’m considering moving my two CMs down to DM and play a Regista and SVs instead. But can a Regista work in combo with a APs in the AMC position as you describe ?

[Cloud9]

13 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I use a DLP BWM combo with a 4231 and its actually very good. The idea here is to be playing higher up the pitch.  With a higher line of engagement and a higher defensive line you are putting a lot of pressure on defences. A DLP on support or defend has the hold position player instruction so he doesnt' drift too high. When playing two roles like that I can put a lot of pressure on systems that use a DMx2, and my favourite role in front of them is actually an AP with roam from position. Now that role can move around and find space, with the two pressing higher the movement of the AP creates issues. 

And this is where I use a Winger on support on one flank and an IF(A) on the other. The winger has great dribbling, acceleration, but I want him to start deeper so I play him on support. When he gets the ball he does take players on. He gives us width that the AP loves to use, thereby giving us numerous tap ins because on the opposite flank I have an IF on attack, this player drives at defences from the halfspaces. He starts out wide then inverts.

In front I switch between a Poacher and an AF, depending on the opposition, If I find that I am in a game which favours quick transitions, maybe the opposition likes to attack me a lot then the W/IF/AF combo is the one I use, because it leads to mayhem. If they want to sit back and defend, then I call on the poacher who keeps the defenders occupied while my AP dictates tempo and the width from the winger and the IF are the primary threats. With the poacher in the box, he's been getting a lot of tap ins because we usually end up switch play on the diagonal

The only reason why I was able to do this was because I favour a style that sits in opponents thirds. I play by forcing them into mistakes.  Whenever I play against a 5221, 532 or a double DM system I can always use the BWM/DLP combination to apply pressure on their defensive mids.

I also use a BWM x 2 combination in my flat 442. Here I leverage off players with drops deep/dictate tempo.  Or I use a BWM(D)/S combo. Either way its also possible. Yes those BWM have a large area of influence, but they are extremely disruptive especially against deep defensive formations. 


The main issue with @ThomasHK1979system is greed , but in attack. You are using a TQ who doesn't always do a good defensive job. My recommendation would be to use a support duty. Then with the double support duties in midfield he has sent an IF on attack with an inverted winger on attack.

Its a system thats set to counter/regroup. But the counter seems to have issues too, you are playing higher up the pitch, but you are telling your DLF to hold up the ball and play it into two roles that will be close to the opposition fullbacks. They will be easy to mark. I would suggest changing the IW to a Winger on attack. Even an IW on attack with the stay wider pi will still be on the shoulder of the fullback because they will always invert in the final third. He is therefore creating congestion for himself.

The easiest fix would be to turn the striker into a PF(A) that way he moves into the channels, set the right AM to winger on attack and play someone who has a right foot there, you could also use a left footed player there too. Now when you play someone there on the flank opposite his preferred foot he will stay wide and play the kind of passes you see with IW or he could cut inside and bring the ball in from wider positions. Its your preference. I personally find that AP(S) are very good at finding space in the final third and moving the attack around. The 4231 vs the 433 is also a mismatch at the moment on the current match engine when you start using the OI tight mark on the opposition DM. If your players have good marking and you are also using an AP, the DMs just get marked out.

If you are worried about controlling the middle third, then DLP(D) till you get more comfortable, but the FB(S) I would probably shift him to a WB(S) so he can keep up and support the BWM, otherwise you might end up seeing a lot of hoofed balls.
 

This turned into one long essay. I am getting too old for this

Thanks for taking a deep dive into this. Appreciate your insights into role combinations here.

• I've been tinkering with pushing the double pivot into midfield with the new changes (trying out a 5-2-2-1 this year) but always feel a bit exposed to a counter without one on defend duty. I'll try implanting some of the suggestions/role combos you've mentioned!

 

 

[ThomasHK1979]

On 31/01/2023 at 16:38, Rashidi said:

I use a DLP BWM combo with a 4231 and its actually very good. The idea here is to be playing higher up the pitch.  With a higher line of engagement and a higher defensive line you are putting a lot of pressure on defences. A DLP on support or defend has the hold position player instruction so he doesnt' drift too high. When playing two roles like that I can put a lot of pressure on systems that use a DMx2, and my favourite role in front of them is actually an AP with roam from position. Now that role can move around and find space, with the two pressing higher the movement of the AP creates issues. 

And this is where I use a Winger on support on one flank and an IF(A) on the other. The winger has great dribbling, acceleration, but I want him to start deeper so I play him on support. When he gets the ball he does take players on. He gives us width that the AP loves to use, thereby giving us numerous tap ins because on the opposite flank I have an IF on attack, this player drives at defences from the halfspaces. He starts out wide then inverts.

In front I switch between a Poacher and an AF, depending on the opposition, If I find that I am in a game which favours quick transitions, maybe the opposition likes to attack me a lot then the W/IF/AF combo is the one I use, because it leads to mayhem. If they want to sit back and defend, then I call on the poacher who keeps the defenders occupied while my AP dictates tempo and the width from the winger and the IF are the primary threats. With the poacher in the box, he's been getting a lot of tap ins because we usually end up switch play on the diagonal

The only reason why I was able to do this was because I favour a style that sits in opponents thirds. I play by forcing them into mistakes.  Whenever I play against a 5221, 532 or a double DM system I can always use the BWM/DLP combination to apply pressure on their defensive mids.

I also use a BWM x 2 combination in my flat 442. Here I leverage off players with drops deep/dictate tempo.  Or I use a BWM(D)/S combo. Either way its also possible. Yes those BWM have a large area of influence, but they are extremely disruptive especially against deep defensive formations. 


The main issue with @ThomasHK1979system is greed , but in attack. You are using a TQ who doesn't always do a good defensive job. My recommendation would be to use a support duty. Then with the double support duties in midfield he has sent an IF on attack with an inverted winger on attack.

Its a system thats set to counter/regroup. But the counter seems to have issues too, you are playing higher up the pitch, but you are telling your DLF to hold up the ball and play it into two roles that will be close to the opposition fullbacks. They will be easy to mark. I would suggest changing the IW to a Winger on attack. Even an IW on attack with the stay wider pi will still be on the shoulder of the fullback because they will always invert in the final third. He is therefore creating congestion for himself.

The easiest fix would be to turn the striker into a PF(A) that way he moves into the channels, set the right AM to winger on attack and play someone who has a right foot there, you could also use a left footed player there too. Now when you play someone there on the flank opposite his preferred foot he will stay wide and play the kind of passes you see with IW or he could cut inside and bring the ball in from wider positions. Its your preference. I personally find that AP(S) are very good at finding space in the final third and moving the attack around. The 4231 vs the 433 is also a mismatch at the moment on the current match engine when you start using the OI tight mark on the opposition DM. If your players have good marking and you are also using an AP, the DMs just get marked out.

If you are worried about controlling the middle third, then DLP(D) till you get more comfortable, but the FB(S) I would probably shift him to a WB(S) so he can keep up and support the BWM, otherwise you might end up seeing a lot of hoofed balls.
 

This turned into one long essay. I am getting too old for this

Thanks for the feedback. Just a quick question. When you talk about DLPs and BWMs combo, do you mean in DM positions or CM positions? (4231DM or 4231)