How do you play "vertical" football

[beverage1982]

Hi tactics hive mind.

This is a quick question but what TI's do you look for when trying to play vertical football? I guess mentality probably comes into this too - in fact it may be even more important.

By vertical I mean the current tren d for teams who play from back to front quick quickly, pushing the ball up the field rather than side to side. They're not necessarily always direct, though that TI probably has a role to play. They're more just...well...vertical.

 

[CARRERA]

11 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

By vertical I mean the current tren d for teams who play from back to front quick quickly, pushing the ball up the field rather than side to side.

thats what football manager describes as direct passing.

11 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

They're not necessarily always direct

Direct passing is the same as vertical / diagonal passing. What did you think, what direct passing is?

Edited July 19, 2021 by CARRERA

[beverage1982]

9 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

thats what football manager describes as direct passing.

Direct passing is the same as vertical / diagonal passing. What did you think, what direct passing is?

I get the description of direct passing but not all teams who play vertically play with direct pssing. I mean the Vertical Tiki Taka preset would signify that being the case no? 

I'm thinking the likes of Daniel Farke's Norwich who play very vertically but aren't exactly playing the longer ball that direct trends towards. Or even Villa under Dean Smith who play vertical balls forward using quick one-twos. 

[WhyMe]

7 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

I get the description of direct passing but not all teams who play vertically play with direct pssing. I mean the Vertical Tiki Taka preset would signify that being the case no? 

I'm thinking the likes of Daniel Farke's Norwich who play very vertically but aren't exactly playing the longer ball that direct trends towards. Or even Villa under Dean Smith who play vertical balls forward using quick one-twos. 

Are you perhaps thinking of the fluid counter attack strategy (as it is called in the FM preset?  i.e. short passing but high tempo with an emphasis on forward passing?

[CARRERA]

18 minutes ago, beverage1982 said:

I'm thinking the likes of Daniel Farke's Norwich who play very vertically but aren't exactly playing the longer ball that direct trends towards. Or even Villa under Dean Smith who play vertical balls forward using quick one-twos.

passing is very poorly explained in FM, the passing slider does not indicate short vs. long passing. its short (restricted in range) vs. vertical/diagonal (restricted in direction) (i think they named it direct as diganonal is somewhat different from vertical). in addition to that it scales in risk. So putting the slider to the left will lead to more (its always a relative) low risk, short passes which will lead more often to side-ways / backward passes. Or putting the slider to the right will lead to more high risk, vertical/diagonal passes.

So how do you manage the range with direct passes, as they are not restricted to that as short passes are? You can do that by your distribution of roles and duties. I give you an example, the AF is always lurking at the edge of the offside trap. That role will demand passes into the space behind the defence line to run at. Those passes can be quite long and players will take the opportunity if it occurs and does go along with their passing risk.

What you need to do is creating overlap relationships to create possible combination patters, where you players can do their 1-2s in a vertical style. Players need to create mobility at different times. And avoid roles, that are looking for long passes, like described before.

Edited July 19, 2021 by CARRERA

[beverage1982]

14 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

passing is very poorly explained in FM, the passing slider does not indicate short vs. long passing. its short (restricted in range) vs. vertical/diagonal (restricted in direction) (i think they named it direct as diganonal is somewhat different from vertical). in addition to that it scales in risk. So putting the slider to the left will lead to more (its always a relative) low risk, short passes which will lead more often to side-ways / backward passes. Or putting the slider to the right will lead to more high risk, vertical/diagonal passes.

So how do you manage the range with direct passes, as they are not restricted to that as short passes are? You can do that by your distribution of roles and duties. I give you an example, the AF is always lurking at the edge of the offside trap. That role will demand passes into the space behind the defence line to run at. Those passes can be quite long and players will take the opportunity if it occurs and does go along with their passing risk.

What you need to do is creating overlap relationships to create possible combination patters, where you players can do their 1-2s in a vertical style. Players need to create mobility at different times. And avoid roles, that are looking for long passes, like described before.

Wow in all these years playing FM I never knew that. I just assumed it was length of pass and then you had to either speed it up or slow it down.

 

So here are my current two tactics. My goals is to make use of two creative wide men (Grealish and Buendia). Like Villa IRL I want to be able to go direct to my striker (An AF here, is that problematic?) or build up using vertical passes and quick one twos to eventually release a wide man to run at the defence. I don;t mind passes going side to side, but I want to focus on passing forwards and between the lines. I've tried to create the different levels of attack that you talk of too.

 

How does it look? I'm wondering if going narrowwer could create that vertical p[assing, but then I'm cramping those wide players who I want to operate in the half space on each side. 

[CARRERA]

1 hour ago, beverage1982 said:

Wow in all these years playing FM I never knew that. I just assumed it was length of pass and then you had to either speed it up or slow it down.

no problem

regarding your tactics, there isnt anything super bad, you can switch around both CM's to have better cover for your attacking fullback. otherwise, you just need to test your tactics and report back what exactly is going wrong. Keep always in mind what the demand of the receiving player is in terms of passing. And dont try to cure problems within your tactic with some weird assumptions, like playing narrower will lead to more vertical play. Its the type of the pass that is vertical or not, nothing else. and thats it with all other instructions.

Keep in mind, that play out of defence will set the passing settings to the lowest possible point of all your defenders and defensive midfielders.

Edited July 19, 2021 by CARRERA

[beverage1982]

On 19/07/2021 at 18:46, CARRERA said:

no problem

regarding your tactics, there isnt anything super bad, you can switch around both CM's to have better cover for your attacking fullback. otherwise, you just need to test your tactics and report back what exactly is going wrong. Keep always in mind what the demand of the receiving player is in terms of passing. And dont try to cure problems within your tactic with some weird assumptions, like playing narrower will lead to more vertical play. Its the type of the pass that is vertical or not, nothing else. and thats it with all other instructions.

Keep in mind, that play out of defence will set the passing settings to the lowest possible point of all your defenders and defensive midfielders.

So been playing this and it's been a bit hit and miss. Sometimes I get great vertical play, sometimes we just pump it long far too much.

 

Biggest concern is defensively we leak like a sieve. I've not had this problem on FM21 before but we are just so loose at the back. Lot of goals scored by little through balls beyond our defense from around the area

[CARRERA]

1 hour ago, beverage1982 said:

sometimes we just pump it long far too much.

to who are those balls played to? And does it occure outside of counter attacking situations? If it's the AF, did you try another role, because as i explained earlier, the AF is quite stretching the play which will demand longer passes.

1 hour ago, beverage1982 said:

Biggest concern is defensively we leak like a sieve.

did you switch around the CM's as i suggested? In addition to that, you can add a second holding midfielder, like a DLP's instead of the BBM, but i dont thinkt its necessary right now as you are still have a FB(s) in your defensive line.

 

1 hour ago, beverage1982 said:

Lot of goals scored by little through balls beyond our defense from around the area

You can defend against through balls, be protecting the space behind your defensive line by lowering it. OR start pressing earlier by increasing your line of engagement / pressing intensity to prevent the other team getting into dangerous areas. Both is possible.

Maybe you can post a screenshot of your current tactics if it changed from the last screen, so everyone is up to date how it evolved.

Edited July 22, 2021 by CARRERA

[beverage1982]

Thanks for the advice.

So I've actually evolved the tactic a little to try and create something using Villa's two biggest weapons going into the new season. Buendia and Grealish. I'm trying to build a 433 DM where Ollie Watkins pushes the defence back and these two run riot in the golden zone by cutting in from both wings. It's a little Dean Smith but also borrwing a little from Mourinho's first Chelsea side where Drogba pushed the defence back for the lieks of DUff and Robben to step into. 

I stillw ant to play vertical football. Not long but playing the ball through the lines.

I'm away form my FM machine at moment but thinking of lining up like this. 

 

Balanced.
Exploit flanks. Direct passing. More expressive. Overlap left. 
Counter / Counter Press
Standard D Line / Lower LOE / Force Opposition wide / Press more. 

                       CF (A)
AP (A)                                        IW(S)
              CM (S) Mez (S)
                        DM (D)

FB (S) BPD (D) CD (D)  FB (A)

[glengarry224]

The two things I'd monitor in matches with this tactic:

• Only the CF(a) is attacking the box without the ball.  If this becomes an issue, you might want to try a more attacking CM midfielder or make the RW an IF; and
• Your right flank might be vulnerable.  DM(d) does not cover the wings or sweep up behind the DL as well as a HB. 

Also, the AP(a) is already a ball magnet so you might not need the TI to exploit the left flank.  If your other players have good decision making, you might want to give them more freedom.

[CARRERA]

9 hours ago, beverage1982 said:

Thanks for the advice.

So I've actually evolved the tactic a little to try and create something using Villa's two biggest weapons going into the new season. Buendia and Grealish. I'm trying to build a 433 DM where Ollie Watkins pushes the defence back and these two run riot in the golden zone by cutting in from both wings. It's a little Dean Smith but also borrwing a little from Mourinho's first Chelsea side where Drogba pushed the defence back for the lieks of DUff and Robben to step into. 

I stillw ant to play vertical football. Not long but playing the ball through the lines.

I'm away form my FM machine at moment but thinking of lining up like this. 

 

Balanced.
Exploit flanks. Direct passing. More expressive. Overlap left. 
Counter / Counter Press
Standard D Line / Lower LOE / Force Opposition wide / Press more. 

                       CF (A)
AP (A)                                        IW(S)
              CM (S) Mez (S)
                        DM (D)

FB (S) BPD (D) CD (D)  FB (A)

Ok, but what is not working as you’d like to? 
I will question tho, who will provide width on the left flank? AP is sitting inside and the FB(s) is stepping up to support the midfield, but no one is really attacking the wide area.

With a more vertical passing style, your build up play will be much quicker. Do your players get to the front quickly enough to provide options or do they get isolated in 1vX dribbling situations? If there are not enough passing options available, you should consider to either increase mentality or lower your passing to „standard“.

why did you go with a lower line of engagement? Do you want to fall back into your defensive third before starting to defend? It’s also to mention, that „pressing more“ in your own half is kinda risky, as the closest defender to the ball will leave his position (and open up space for a pass / run behind him) to press the player on the ball. If you want to sit deep a lower intense pressing will suit much more as it allows your players to remain in their defensive position and cut off passing lines. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by CARRERA