What kind of data does SI need

[vukigepard]

As written by one mod and i quote from the feedback thread about updating the beta:

"That depends on how happy they would be with internal changes, level of initial feedback and ease of changes. I've mentioned it before but there isn't huge amount of feedback both here and in the public beta thread. For those in the public beta, this is your time to have your influence. "

What kind of feedback, data is needed for us both to go forward and make a overall better FM, what kind of data will the SI look at, how can community really help. What do we need to do to have an updated beta until the final patch comes through, or to have a response to raised bugs and know that they are worked on, how to have our influence, how much are they happy with internal changes?

I'd like for this to be a constructive thread, not venting one, where we could at least be directed as to what is going on.

My arguments for this:

Game was released in november last year, match engine is a continuation from the last year, that was continuation of the me year before that, people are using their own free time to try and help fix faults for a product they have paid for as a complete, testing it 3 months from release in open beta with very little feedback from the team, and we don't know what the team that is getting paid for, is doing, or what are they looking at, or what is the roadmap, or what do they need so they can do it better. 

I just don't want my hope to be toyed with as i'm already unhappy with the product that i've bought and that i'm really trying on my part to make it better as a customer. It's not a problem if Si say the number of goals scored by top strikers in dominant teams is not a current concern or priority, or who scores them against who. I can move on and drop it, play older versions of fm as that is immersion breaking for me, and as i can see, for a lot of people.

Pretty please, don't toy with people's hope, that would be the only reason why i would stop supporting the developers in the future.

 

 

[Britrock]

If it's ME issues, they want pkm's with timestamps of the issues that you're seeing. If it's overall game issues, they'll want savegames with examples. Each of the bug forums generally have stickies on how to report issues:

 

[vukigepard]

1 minute ago, Britrock said:

If it's ME issues, they want pkm's with timestamps of the issues that you're seeing. If it's overall game issues, they'll want savegames with examples. Each of the bug forums generally have stickies on how to report issues:

 

I've been posting data in a beta match engine bug subforum, i can understand that there maybe wasn't time for everything to be looked at, but on the other hand, there is a number of unanswered threads in match engine bug forums that have been there for months, what should these people do? Plus i can see that there are some threads that were adressed instantly and others not at all, i don't know the reasons for this selectivity, and i would like to know, even if it's extremely negative, i can live with that.

[Neil Brock]

There's a number of reasons for selectivity with regards specifically to the match engine forums, so I'll try my best to explain.

Nearly everyone who replies to threads within our bugs forum is part of our QA team - occasionally you'll get a developer replying, but by and large it's QA. This means that the majority of their time is spent looking at the game, logging issues which they find themselves, logging issues raised within the community, then re-checking issues when something has been marked as fixed by a developer.

In some areas checking a fix is relatively simple. Say as an example, there's a button that doesn't work on a screen (so a User Interface issue) it's quite black and white with regards to whether it works or doesn't, so can be regressed (checked and marked as fixed) easily. 

In some other areas, such as say the match engine and transfers and contracts, these areas can be a lot more grey. It's not as simple as saying something works or doesn't, it needs a lot more time to test and a lot more feedback. This means that often our QA teams in these areas are extremely busy, both in regards to looking for issues and checking things have been improved. This is where prioritisation comes in and how they best utilise their time. 

Our testers will have to look at things like the match engine forums and look at things with an eye to priority. In a lot of instances anything reported will already be known internally and enough information has already been gathered, so in an ideal world responding to the thread just to say that would be ideal, however it isn't the best use of their time in regards to making the game as good as it can be. In some instances someone may raise in issue in regards to something which we've already put large changes in for internally, so unfortunately whilst that post was valid, now the information and pkm are no longer of use. Again would be ideal if the member of QA informed you of that, but with their limited time it makes more sense to concentrate on work which benefits the overall improvement of that area of the game. There's a real balance to be had here. 

The match engine in the full retail version of FM20 is now running significantly behind both the public beta and the internal version we're still working on. The reality is that now for issues raised from that version in the Bugs Forum the vast majority are no longer going to be of use because of various changes. However, in some specific instances, they might be - when regarding an issue in a match engine area which hasn't changed much (perhaps refereeing decisions, team talks etc) or highlighting an issue still present in a later match engine that we weren't already aware of. Due to this we're not really in a position to shut the forum down and say everything here is no longer of use. 

We do absolutely need to work on how best to communicate this to people who take the time to raise issues for us - which is absolutely invaluable - so they, like us can best utilise their time. We've having a lot of internal conversations on how best to do this moving forward, be it for FM20 or for future versions of the game. Realistically specifically for the match the very best time to raise issues is just after a new version comes out (be that on a Public Beta or a full Update). Likewise keep an eye out within the match engine forums for when our match team is asking for specific examples of events happening in the match engine. 

Hope that makes things a little bit clearer from our perspective. 

[Neil Brock]

I've updated the header in the Match Engine AI Bugs forum and posted more info with regards to the Public Beta version as well. Appreciate the prompt on this, as it's something we should have made clearer before. 

[vukigepard]

3 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

 

Hope that makes things a little bit clearer from our perspective. 

Thanks for a lot for a very fast reply, yeah it does. I'd be very happy to help in any way possible, as i'm sure a lot of people would because we all want a great FM. I can understand that ME team is very busy indeed, and i don't expect a fix over night, but it's good to know that some things were already fixed and acknowledged, and that these threads are seen by the qa or dev team.

About the communication part, i could suggest that mods can be the middle link between dev/qa team, and forum users around here, i think it would save a lot of time and energy if the mods could tell in which direction we are heading or what is a priority at the moment, and what to focus on to help.

Thanks again

[Tiger666]

So what about match engine issues raised in the normal game that have not had a response but are still in the beta. Do we just leave it and assume someone will take a look or are we expected to raise it again in the beta forum?

 

 

[Neil Brock]

4 minutes ago, vukigepard said:

Thanks for a lot for a very fast reply, yeah it does. I'd be very happy to help in any way possible, as i'm sure a lot of people would because we all want a great FM. I can understand that ME team is very busy indeed, and i don't expect a fix over night, but it's good to know that some things were already fixed and acknowledged, and that these threads are seen by the qa or dev team.

About the communication part, i could suggest that mods can be the middle link between dev/qa team, and forum users around here, i think it would save a lot of time and energy if the mods could tell in which direction we are heading or what is a priority at the moment, and what to focus on to help.

Thanks again

It's not that simple as the moderators don't have the overview on what we're working on internally - they don't have access to our bugs database nor are they in a position to directly communicate with the relevant teams. Again it's about having the time to communicate this information - if the teams have the time to communicate it to the moderators, they would have the time to communicate it to the users. It's about finding a process that is as streamlined as possible. Appreciate the suggestion though. 

[Neil Brock]

1 minute ago, Tiger666 said:

So what about match engine issues raised in the normal game that have not had a response but are still in the beta. Do we just leave it and assume someone will take a look or are we expected to raise it again in the beta forum?

If the examples are from an older match engine in most examples they may no longer be relevant. If you find the same issue is present in the public beta match engine it would be worth raising them again there. Understand that's frustrating but as explained above our resources mean we don't have time to revisit every single thread.

If you do have newer examples, would suggest raising it in the beta forum with new examples and linking back to your previous thread. Again whilst we appreciate everyone who takes the time to raise issue, we don't expect it and can't guarantee that action will be taken for every single thread or post raised.