Feedback please

[torehj]

My Milan team plays good football, but have problems scoring. I have watched a few matches, but can not see any clear reason. In every match I have played, we have had mor than 20 shots. Almost never a single big goal scoring chance, and just a few goals. See example under. Any thoughs?

 

[Experienced Defender]

First off, if you play with a regista, then you need much better defensive protection around him. 

Now, here are the instructions I would immediately remove:

- narrow width and focus play through the middle (these two TIs are forcing your attacks into the area(s) of the pitch where most of the opposition are going to pack with players)

- extremely urgent pressing (very risky defensively, as it tends to disrupt your defensive shape, which the opposition can exploit via counter-attacks; use a split-block instead)

- Underlap right (with IFsu and WBat, you already have a natural overlap; if you want a natural underlap, then use IWBat and Wsu; plus, underlaps and overlaps both increase the fullback/wing-backs' mentality, making your already shaky defensive setup even more risky)

- Underlap left (with an attacking mezzala, you need a more conservative fullback in order to protect the flank)

The instruction I would add:

- distribute to FBs, in addition to CBs (so that the keeper would have more options available)

Regarding roles and duties, I wouldn't play the identical roles and duties on both wings. There are different combos that can work well (e.g. IFsu/Wat; IFsu/IFat). 

To cut a long story short, here is an example of how you may set up a 4141dm wide tactic utilizing a regista in a nice way:

F9/DLFsu

IFsu                                   IFat

MEZat     CMsu

REG

    FBsu    CDde    CDde    IWBde

SKsu

I think Positive mentality would be a better choice for a top team like Milan.

Team instructions:

- shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive, overlap right

- counter, counter-press, distribute to CBs and FBs

- higher DL, higher LOE, default pressing urgency, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

The reason the fullbacks are a lot more conservative than in your initial tactic is - the regista. As I said, he is not a defensive-minded DM, so it's essential to surround him with enough players that can defend, while at the same time providing passing options in attacking build-ups. As a sort of "counter-measure", the mentality is raised to Positive and the Overlap on the right flank is also added to slightly boost the mentality of the IWB on defend. Without a regista, the tactic would look differently, of course.  

[torehj]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

First off, if you play with a regista, then you need much better defensive protection around him. 

Now, here are the instructions I would immediately remove:

- narrow width and focus play through the middle (these two TIs are forcing your attacks into the area(s) of the pitch where most of the opposition are going to pack with players)

- extremely urgent pressing (very risky defensively, as it tends to disrupt your defensive shape, which the opposition can exploit via counter-attacks; use a split-block instead)

- Underlap right (with IFsu and WBat, you already have a natural overlap; if you want a natural underlap, then use IWBat and Wsu; plus, underlaps and overlaps both increase the fullback/wing-backs' mentality, making your already shaky defensive setup even more risky)

- Underlap left (with an attacking mezzala, you need a more conservative fullback in order to protect the flank)

The instruction I would add:

- distribute to FBs, in addition to CBs (so that the keeper would have more options available)

Regarding roles and duties, I wouldn't play the identical roles and duties on both wings. There are different combos that can work well (e.g. IFsu/Wat; IFsu/IFat). 

To cut a long story short, here is an example of how you may set up a 4141dm wide tactic utilizing a regista in a nice way:

F9/DLFsu

IFsu                                   IFat

MEZat     CMsu

REG

    FBsu    CDde    CDde    IWBde

SKsu

I think Positive mentality would be a better choice for a top team like Milan.

Team instructions:

- shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive, overlap right

- counter, counter-press, distribute to CBs and FBs

- higher DL, higher LOE, default pressing urgency, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

The reason the fullbacks are a lot more conservative than in your initial tactic is - the regista. As I said, he is not a defensive-minded DM, so it's essential to surround him with enough players that can defend, while at the same time providing passing options in attacking build-ups. As a sort of "counter-measure", the mentality is raised to Positive and the Overlap on the right flank is also added to slightly boost the mentality of the IWB on defend. Without a regista, the tactic would look differently, of course.  

Thank you. I will try out a few of your changes!

[michalgottwald]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

First off, if you play with a regista, then you need much better defensive protection around him. 

At the moment I play with a regista and the same formation as the OP. Actually I use exactly the same roles as him from midfield and back to the keeper - only difference is that my mezzala is on support. The tactic performs (perhaps surprisingly?) extremely well defensively. So unless you're talking about the need for one more support role in midfield I don't agree with you here.

[Experienced Defender]

20 minutes ago, michalgottwald said:

At the moment I play with a regista and the same formation as the OP. Actually I use exactly the same roles as him from midfield and back to the keeper - only difference is that my mezzala is on support. The tactic performs (perhaps surprisingly?) extremely well defensively. So unless you're talking about the need for one more support role in midfield I don't agree with you here.

Can you post a screenshot of  your tactic as a whole? Btw, this is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, as we all have different approaches.

[michalgottwald]

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, michalgottwald said:

Thanx for posting 

Well, except for the front 3 roles and pressing urgency, your setup is really similar to the OP's. Don't know your players though.

[sporadicsmiles]

Just a few things I note on the latest tactic you posted.

1. Why the underlaps? Who is supposed to be underlapping? You have wingbacks, they are supposed to overlap. I do not understand why these instructions are there.

2. Why are you focusing play through the middle? You barely have any players in the middle. The MEZ will go wider when you have the ball. The BBM will head up the pitch. Who are you playing through the middle with? 

Taking 1 and 2 together, I would assume you see a lot of play funnelled out wide to the wing backs, and you are trying to counter it? This is not the way to do it. 

3. Shorter passing and low tempo against teams that play 3 central defenders and sometimes 4 players in the next strata is going to make it difficult for you to break teams down. You need to think of a plan B for when slow build up is not working.

4. Who is your regista passing the ball to? He is going to stay deep and spray balls. Now I kinda like that you are creating space for him using the two mobile midfield roles ahead of him. The F9 is dropping deep, which will also create space int he defensive line (although against 3 man defences it can be hard to exploit this). The Treq will make runs to exploit this space. So may the BBM. The MEZ will find space the Treq vacates too, and be a valid option. All this is a nice start. 

However, I can only see the Treq actually getting on the end of passes to score. The BBM will chip in too, I guess, but maybe not hugely (gets into opposition area would be a nice PPM for this player to have or be given). However the main goal threat is the Treq. The winger will also only have him to pass to. If he has a bad day, you will struggle. I would consider adding another goal thread.

Personally (and I made a big thread on this tactic recently, so I will try not to push you entirely towards how I play) I would use a CM(A) instead of a BBM. More of a goal threat. I would also not use a F9 here. I like a F9 when there are many people overlapping him. Here you do not really have that. 

[michalgottwald]

2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Thanx for posting 

Well, except for the front 3 roles and pressing urgency, your setup is really similar to the OP's. Don't know your players though.

Four of them are regens, so wouldn't expect you to know them.   Everyone should know Arabidze though, what a player. Very good and very cheap.

I also have a high block with my front three closing down more and the rest of the midfield closing passing lanes, to get that pressing trap everyone is talking about. Other than that there aren't really many player instructions - this was one of the saves where everything clicked surprisingly fast and I didn't need to change a lot from my original setup.  As you can see it has its origin in a Vertical tiki taka template, and i really just changed a few things to get it like this. And it's working better than anything else I've tried in FM19.

[michalgottwald]

16 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Just a few things I note on the latest tactic you posted.

 

Thanks for the reply. It's working really well though, so I don't feel the need to change anything. Am at the start of my fifth season and everything is humming.

I agree that some of the instrictions are counter-intuitive, that's because I went with the vertical tiki taka template, changed a few things and then got results way before I expected to. 

You're right that the trequartista is the main goal threat, and that he doesn't do too much creating other than that. He does however fit very nicely into what is a very patient, possession based tactic. 

As mentioned the tactic performs better defensively than in attack, It's in no way toothless though, and other than the trequartista I also get good goal returns from the winger, the striker and both midfielders. It also kind of plays into how long shots are a bit overpowered in this version of the game, and both CM strata players get a lot of shooting opportunities. In my first few season a good amount of my goals came from this, but this has been toned down a bit as the quality of my other attacking players have gotten better.

The right wingback on attack is my main creator. He got 20 assists in my last season (in 27(6) games).

But enough thread hijacking I guess. Just wanted to show that it's certainly possible to create a defensivley stable tactic without too much midfield protection for the regista.

[sporadicsmiles]

40 minutes ago, michalgottwald said:

Thanks for the reply. It's working really well though, so I don't feel the need to change anything. Am at the start of my fifth season and everything is humming.

 

To be fair, I confused your post with the one of the OP, which is why I gave a detailed reply.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, michalgottwald said:

Four of them are regens, so wouldn't expect you to know them.   Everyone should know Arabidze though, what a player. Very good and very cheap

He hasn't played for me yet  

 

2 hours ago, michalgottwald said:

I also have a high block with my front three closing down more and the rest of the midfield closing passing lanes, to get that pressing trap everyone is talking about. Other than that there aren't really many player instructions - this was one of the saves where everything clicked surprisingly fast and I didn't need to change a lot from my original setup.  As you can see it has its origin in a Vertical tiki taka template, and i really just changed a few things to get it like this. And it's working better than anything else I've tried in FM19.

I am glad that your tactic works so nicely even though it's not my cup of tea when it comes to tactics creation