Creation of Own Roles and Styles of Play

[miguelalves]

Some are hard coded into the Role, and some are hard coded out.

The UI doesn't make this clear enough at the moment, but I'm sure will be addressed in due course.

Damn, I guess we just have to wait. Thanks anyway

[HaydarAli]

Sorry, but what do you mean with hard coded?

[RTHerringbone]

Sorry, but what do you mean with hard coded?

As in the quote of mine a few posts ago, Inside Forwards are hard coded to Cut Inside, as that is what an Inside Forward does.

Wingers are set to Hug Touchline, because that is what a Winger does.

It is all about ensuring that the essence of a Role is maintained. It isn't restrictive as PPMs allow variability, but the core Role traits are hard coded

[HaydarAli]

In terms of sliders vs roles/duties - a bit of an insight in terms of the ME code:

- All AI teams use TC only. We do not micro tweak any player slider. AI use touchline instructions of course.

- As some human teams *may* not use roles/duties, or they may *edit* them using sliders, the ME cannot directly reference a player's role or duty, only it's components aka the slider settings.

If you set for example a Striker on Target Man, but give him the same sliders as a Poacher, he will be a Poacher in disguise?

Yes, pretty much so.

Thanks for this confirmation, so if i understood it well, in this sample:

- Player A is a good BWM but with long shots attribute=0

- The AI "sees" that player A is a good fit as BWM, will set that role for him, and won't lower the long shoot slider as humans would.

Am I right?

Yes, that is correct!

As AI could not tweak the sliders, why for God's sake was the user manager able to tweak them? :confused:

Reading PaulC, I had deduced that SI wanted to prevent the emergence of AI Cheats or creation of Super Tactics by disabling the possibility to tweak the default instructions.

So, I TOTALLY understand their decision!

[RTHerringbone]

And God said "Let There Be Light".

Hallelujah! And this is from an atheist.

[HaydarAli]

There were no tool tips that told you anything about these sliders, or what they represented.

The sliders at least showed us the frequencies of the intructions e.g. Rarely/Normal/Often.

[HaydarAli]

Can anyone answer to this question by only using the ingame descriptions/definition of the roles:

What is the difference in passing/closing down/long distance shoots between a Defensive Midfielder on Defense and an Anchor Man?

[HaydarAli]

i'd guess they would be pretty much the same but anchor man would press less. The differences will appear if you employ different tream instructions. If you go more attacking, i am speculating the DM would get a bit more offensive scope than an anchorman. longer passing range maybe. even on attacking strategy i guess the anchor would still behave quite the same as it is somewhat limited role.

For some aspects of the game, FM14 let us play by guessing and speculating.

That is what bothers me because IRL every manager knows exactly what he has given as basic instructions to his players before a match (default instruction in FM language).

That is why I can't understand why we don't have more clarification of the roles or an overview with a better descriptions/definition of the roles.

[HaydarAli]

And God said "Let There Be Light".

Hallelujah! And this is from an atheist.

;-) I had already understood why the sliders were removed.

Extract of my thread:

The disadvantage of tweaking the default instructions was that the AI couldn't defend against or adapt to the one-dimensional chance types created by minor slider tweaks, resulting in the emergence of the so-called super-tactics.

Therefore, I think that SI tries, by disabling the possibility to tweak the default instructions, to prevent the emergence of AI Cheats or creation of "super tactics" that ruins the game especially if you play online with guys who do not necessary try to play as realistic as possible.

That’s why we can not anymore tweak the default instructions, but i repeat it again: the default settings should at least be visible!

[HaydarAli]

Hi everybody,

I've realised that this thread was not clear enough and therefore I believe that it resulted in some misunderstanding of my point of view.

After reading my thread some people might think that the suggestion was absolutely necessary, but no it isn't.

So, I decided to try make it clearer, but I did not changed the main idea of the thread.

In short, this thread suggests only if an alternative was possible to the decision that SI had taken.

If, in the next FM-series, SI doesn't try to create a new mechanism that alows user managers and AI managers to customize the preset roles of SI, it's not a big deal for me. There are already enough roles, especially with the addition of 8 new roles.

After consideration, I really believe that if SI had found a way to resolve the issue of the AI not being able to tweak default settings, they would have done it.

But the main reason for removal of classic tactics was to allow SI to build ME AI in future around player roles.

It should not be easy to create a game like Football Manager, therefore I can understand why they decided to take an other direction.

So, I understand the difficulty of finding a solution for this partical AI issue. We must remember that FM is still a game and not real life.

Finally, my biggest wish is that SI gives more clarification in football terminology of the default instructions of each role/mentality/fluidity --> subject of the main thread.

My Respects for SI for creating such a fantastic game!

[HaydarAli]

Firstly, you have to define "create new roles"

Secondly, the half back and False nine are roles that couldn't have existed before. They have and require specific logic that wasnt there, nor that could be reproduced with sliders.

With "create new roles" I obviously mean the possibility of customizing the default instructions of the preset roles of SI and/or the possibility of creating completely new ones.

Reminder: this should only be possible if SI find a new mechanism that allows the ME to do that.

[miguelalves]

I wouldn' go that far. I liked sliders and I like this new system although I think the default instructions should be visible and there should be the possibility of some kind of customizing. For instance, a DLP by default holds the ball (even I don't know this by Fm14 but by memoir of FM13 and this wrong) but it makes no sense if I want a player that doesn't hold the ball to have to choose a different role.

[miguelalves]

agree, it is too rigid in a lot of instances (designated playmakers and targetmen, no option to chose supply to targetmen, no ability to know how much crossing do the wide players and inability to remove crossing completely) hopefully SI will think this over.

Hope so mate. It's completly out of any sense and logic to have to choose another role just because a simple instruction.

[HaydarAli]

Just wanted to share it with the community.

Dear Coleman,

On the player instructions screen, we can see that some instructions are selectable (dark grey ones) and others are unselectable (light grey ones).

As the default instructions of each role are no longer made explicitly clear in FM14, we don't really know how the roles are actually preseted/defined in the game.

For instance, in some cases it can be difficult to guess why an instruction is unavailable (light grey) for a particular role, only by relying on the pop-up definitions of the roles.

Since the UI doesn't make clear enough which player instructions are hard coded into a role and which are hard coded out, I'd like to know if this issue would be addressed in due course?

Yours sincerely,

Ali

Thank you for your email HaydarAli.

I think this is a great suggestion that could be implemented for future versions. I have added this on your behalf to our suggestion list to be added to FM15 and beyond. As you may be aware the game is release on Thursday so unfortunately the time is not available for us to add this into FM14 for this year.

Yours sincerely,

Dom.

Thanks for replying on my e-mail Mr. Coleman !

It's a good news! Beter late then never

I'd like to ask you another question in the same context:

Why did SI decide to hide the default instructions for each role?

I'd like to share, in short, my opinion about this issue with you.

I've already emphasized in the SI forum the importance of a detailed overview of the default instructions for each role, tactic, mentality and fluidity for a better interpretation of them and a better game experience.

The lack of the default instructions overview results in a lack of an overview of how the players behave on the pitch by default.

To be able to see the default instructions should allow us to know how exactly they changes when applying the team & player instructions, shouts, roles, mentality & fluidity.

The descriptions of the roles gives us only a vague idea about the basics a role does. How did SI really preseted/defined the roles by default?

So, I believe we need more clarifications and better descriptions/definitions for each role/mentality/fluidity.

We need to understand how a game is conceptualised to be able to translate our football knowledge in a game, isn't it?

IRL, a manager knows exactly what he has told as basic instructions (i.e. default instructions in FM Language) to his players.

The pop-up definitions doesn't make that clear enough and therefore it results to playing the game, at least at the beginning, with assumptions.

It's a strange feeling that we need to guess and get experience, by watching matches, for understanding the roles by default in detail.

Hope this issue will be solved alsoin the future.

I really appreciate that you've taken your time to read my email.

Cheers,

Ali

Thank you for the feedback HaydarAli.

We love hearing about the different playing style's of our user base, and all the feedback we receive (both good and bad) really help to shape the game going forward. The points you raise here will be reviewed when we look to adding into the list of features to be added to FM15.

Many thanks again,

Dom.

[miguelalves]

Some nice and diplomatic backslapping and no answers, but it was a nice initiative Ali :-)

[milnerpoint]

Yeah you pretty much got fobbed off with the usual answer there.

[HaydarAli]

I imagine so.

Anyway nothing ventured nothing gained.

Wait & See.