Choosing a Formation

[jjtile]

Hi all. I'm new to (posting) in the forums but I've playing FM since CM93/94 through to 01/02. In those games I won numerous EPL championships and Champions Leagues but I've never lasted pasted season 2 without being first in subsequent CMs/FMs. Despite this, I've always bought FM06/07/08/09/10/11/12 - but it was always the same story. Never made it past a second season without being fired.

Obviously this isn't bad luck and I must be approaching the game entirely wrongly. So I've decided to give it another shot and post step-by-step what I'm doing in the hope that someone can point out to me the glaring mistakes I must be making.

So, first of all. Choosing a formation. I've just started a game with Sunderland and I guess the first thing to do is to pick a formation. Advice around the forums seems to be "pick a formation to suit your players" but my question is "how?" What's a simple starting point/rule of thumb here?

Assistant manager recommendations and picking a formation to suit the the top recommended players? What if the AM has an awful JPA rating? (as Sunderland's does) Use another coach with a better JPA rating? What if the best two players are defenders? (as Sunderland's AM tells me they are)

(cross posted 'Tactics & Training Discussion' as I'm not sure if this is technically a tactics thing or a broader "general approach to the game" thing)

[QWERTYOP]

Hi all. I'm new to (posting) in the forums but I've playing FM since CM93/94 through to 01/02. In those games I won numerous EPL championships and Champions Leagues but I've never lasted pasted season 2 without being first in subsequent CMs/FMs. Despite this, I've always bought FM06/07/08/09/10/11/12 - but it was always the same story. Never made it past a second season without being fired.

Obviously this isn't bad luck and I must be approaching the game entirely wrongly. So I've decided to give it another shot and post step-by-step what I'm doing in the hope that someone can point out to me the glaring mistakes I must be making.

So, first of all. Choosing a formation. I've just started a game with Sunderland and I guess the first thing to do is to pick a formation. Advice around the forums seems to be "pick a formation to suit your players" but my question is "how?" What's a simple starting point/rule of thumb here?

Assistant manager recommendations and picking a formation to suit the the top recommended players? What if the AM has an awful JPA rating? (as Sunderland's does) Use another coach with a better JPA rating? What if the best two players are defenders? (as Sunderland's AM tells me they are)

(cross posted 'Tactics & Training Discussion' as I'm not sure if this is technically a tactics thing or a broader "general approach to the game" thing)

Easy. Put your best players in their best positions & go from there. Trust your own instincts first and foremost.

[jjtile]

Easy. Put your best players in their best positions & go from there. Trust your own instincts first and foremost.

Thanks QWERTOP. Just wondering what's the best way to work out who my best players are. Assistant managers advice? The advice of a coach with a high 'Judging Player Ability' score? Value?

It's quite straightforward to judge whether Forward X is better that Forward Y (I just compare the stats). But I'm struggling to make a judgement on "Is Forward X a better player to base a formation around than Midfielder Y or Defender Z"

[QWERTYOP]

Thanks QWERTOP. Just wondering what's the best way to work out who my best players are. Assistant managers advice? The advice of a coach with a high 'Judging Player Ability' score? Value?

It's quite straightforward to judge whether Forward X is better that Forward Y (I just compare the stats). But I'm struggling to make a judgement on "Is Forward X a better player to base a formation around than Midfielder Y or Defender Z"

Experiment. Play around. Above all, trust your gut. But I do always make a point of employing an ass man with high JPA stats. But that's just something to start from. If the best player in your squad is suffering from ****** moral, he may as well be Carlton Palmer.

Watch games rather than reading text & watching dots move around. See who does what. For me, that's absolutely vital. In the end, YOU'RE the boss & you have to make the call one way or the other.

[jjtile]

Experiment. Play around. Above all, trust your gut. But I do always make a point of employing an ass man with high JPA stats. But that's just something to start from. If the best player in your squad is suffering from ****** moral, he may as well be Carlton Palmer.

Watch games rather than reading text & watching dots move around. See who does what. For me, that's absolutely vital. In the end, YOU'RE the boss & you have to make the call one way or the other.

Thanks again QWERTOP. However, "trusting my gut" without the underlying knowledge (i.e. guessing) is what has got me sacked in every version of Football Manager and it's been quite frustrating. I'm really keen to see if anyone's got any rules of thumb. Not expecting them to be flawless but at least they'd be something to base experimentation on.

[Domus Clamantium]

For example, regardless of whether they can play the position currently:

Some centre backs make excellent target men

Many deep lying forwards are good in attacking mid

Many deep lying playmakers are good in attacking mid

Some full backs also play well as wingers

Don't just put people places because the dot on the pitch on their report says that's where they play best. To start with I'd be looking for reasons to play with at least one attacking midfielder to link up your forward(s) with midfield, and for that you are looking for strong passing ability, essentially good creativity, passing, decisions and anticipation. Or you might have a tall and strong defensive mid who is good in the air and tackle. He would make a good partner for a strong passer in attacking mid because when the ball comes out for a goal kick you need people in the air to lay it off to your playmaker. Also generally speaking most defensive mids are good in the Ball Winning Midfielder role. If you have a defensive mid who can do all that but also is good at long shots and has composure he is going to do well in attacking mid.

Using a centre back as a target man can work when you are playing someone up front who is essentially a fast striker. Typically the fast striker isn't so good in the air and you need someone with him who can give the other team's centre back challenges. When you play a lone fast striker who can't jump, the other team's defenders will basically own him every time the ball comes off the ground. But to play a DC(LD) as a ST you are really looking for first touch and teamwork with that aerial ability and not necessarily finishing because without the first touch he won't bring the ball down for the fast striker or be able to head the ball down to the ground for himself to put chances away such as when the GK kicks it long or a DC punts it out up the other end defending a set piece. You might want to teach that DC "looks for pass rather than attempting to score" as well, which will mean he will still put headers/sitters away but pass the ball when it's not an easy finish.

With regards to formation I really recommend playing at least 1 AMC if your squad has more midfielders than other players. It'll work even better if you have full backs who can cross in a support duty.

[WizbaII]

Some people like to fit the players to the formation, others like to fit the formation to the player. Either one can work, but I prefer the former because then all I have to ask is "Which player is best for Position X, which player is best for Position Y?" instead of "Which formation will make the most use of Player X, Y, and Z?" You can always train players to learn new positions (assuming they have suitable attributes).

But if you want to do the latter, the first thing I would do is check the Assistant Manager's ratings for each player to make the first 11. Then I would at the rest of the players to see if one really stands out as deserving to be in the first 11. After that, I would play with those players for a while, take players out if they have low ratings after 5 matches and experiment that way until I get the first 11 I'm happy with. Of course, if you do it this way you may find that you want to change formation after a while because you found that that Player 12 should replace Player 7 but Player 12 is better is some other position.

[mixmkz]

I look at the teams usually and see who are your best players that can make a difference:

If I have two great strikers that supports one another, then it would make sense to have two striker formation

If I have amazing wingers then I would want a formation that maximizes my wing play

If I a creative midfield then I would want my formation to go through the middle

etc

Once that is set then I can consider what areas to strengthen or to complement my formation such as if I am maximizing my wing play I should have a towering striker to take advantage of crosses etc.

[BiggusD]

There are pros and cons with each formation. 3-5-2ish formations will win the midfield battle most of the time, 442-ish is balanced, 433(451)-ish is good defensively and can also be balanced. Generally, I prefer building a tactic that, given the right players, will provide a clear advantage in as many situations as possible. Once I have done this, I have a long-term plan in mind for what kind of players I am looking for, with that clear advantage in mind in the (distant) future. If you simply put each player in their prefered role, do you even know what types you are looking for on the transfer market? Is there a plan at all with such a strategy? I guess those who play that way will have to defend that themselves, because I cannot see what advantages there are with it at all.

The advantage of having a certain win in the future which you work towards is that there is no swerving, no experimentation as you go forward. There is no need to second-guess yourself, to doubt that it will work out in the end. When you have assembled 25 "right" players, you have the world at your feet, and any hickups on that path would be a failure to assemble the right players and not something else. This require patience and faith, though. I cannot begin to imagine the despair people feel when they are searching for the right strategy as they go along.

What many seems to forget is that the hardest thing in the game is to turn a bad run around. Maintaining good form is easy, while striking back immediately after a unlucky defeat is medium difficulty. Keeping that in mind, it is pointless experimenting with tactics when you are in a run of bad form, not because it is impossible but because there are so many other factors playing in on the performance and result. If you want to experiment with tactics to find that solid shape that will win you trophies, it is essential to rule out as many factors as possible. Bad luck, poor team talk, poor manager reputation, poor pitch, AI anti-tactics, poorly gelled team, poorly gelled tactic and poor morale are all factors that may influence your tactic. In order to build a tactic that you are 100% certain works well in most matches against most opponents and most tactics, you need to remove as many of those factors as possible, and to do that you need to replay matches.

Replaying a match can give you a lot of information about your tactic. If you are unhappy with the performance, reload and try again. This does not equal win = move on. You are looking for a way to be best, not to win at any cost. The first factor you need to remove when you are testing tactics is the team gelling issue. Other factors you can deal with right away are manager reputation (choose International reputation and a club with National or lower reputation) and tactical familiarity. You do this by holidaying until mid-November after having loaded your tactic. If the tactic is structurally sound the team will be around the table position they should be, or higher. Let your assistant take care of team talks, don't touch OI's and watch the next match in Extended or Comprehensive mode.

As for the tactic itself, go with a fluid 442 with no other changes, and basic roles (no target men, playmakers, trequartistas or other specialist roles). One deep-lying forward, one advanced forward, one attacking winger and one support winger, one MC on defend and one MC on support, full backs on support and CD on defend. I recommend removing Hold Up Ball on the DLF and MCd. This is now a simple tactic that should have few problems but also few great advantages. Tick Counter-attack (in Balanced). In November, it should not make your players run around like headless chicken and not know how to kick a ball (given that the team is not in bad form with poor morale throughout). If you see some obvious issue, like for instance the opposition doubling down the flanks getting cross after cross, or tici-tacaing in the middle, try some logical shouts to remedy that. Drop deeper or play wider in the former and play narrower in the latter... these comes to mind. You know, experiment. If it doesn't work, reload and try again. When you are happy with the performance, and you have won, move on to the next match. Eventually you will have built a tactic (a base tactic that works + shouts that help out, in this case). Because you win all the time you will have success (not "deserved" but that is not the point now), so you will get money and time to build a fantastic team with players specially-tailored to how you want to play etc. There are no worries now, and there should be no foul taste in your mouth either because this is a TEST SAVE.

It is only when you are certain that the path you have walked in your test save will lead to success that you scrap that save and start again, this time for real. With no replaying or other "cheats".

[fmFutbolManager]

If you go to your assistant manager profile, at the bottom there's an advice section. There will be recommended formations there.