The abstract formation thread

[Cleon]

Well I had loads of success yeah for the short time I used it (18 months in game time) but I had too many strikers so ended up been forced to use a formation that utilises a striker.

Thr rest of the instructions were more roaming, short passing, cautious tackling, mixed marking and press more

[jimbobBRFC]

Well I had loads of success yeah for the short time I used it (18 months in game time) but I had too many strikers so ended up been forced to use a formation that utilises a striker.

Thr rest of the instructions were more roaming, short passing, cautious tackling, mixed marking and press more

Yeah I know what you mean, all my strikers in my Arsenal save are getting a bit annoyed. I use RVP in the AMC position so thats ok. Chamakh and Sanogo are getting annoyed so just thrown them on every now and again up top. Dont like Chamakh but couldnt sell him and Sanogo is young so at the moment it isnt causing much of a problem. Going to try and introduce that formation if you dont mind, as I said it is my perfect formation Cheers for the extra info

[Cleon]

I based it around the 3 at the back formations I posted about in the SI Sports Centre thread, I actually used those as the base and worked from that

[jimbobBRFC]

I based it around the 3 at the back formations I posted about in the SI Sports Centre thread, I actually used those as the base and worked from that

Ill have a look through cheers Do you have any idea where abouts in that thread it is? It is a huge thread

[Cleon]

Ill have a look through cheers Do you have any idea where abouts in that thread it is? It is a huge thread

All over I think, the W-M aspects of that were used as well as the other stuff I used with Santos

[retrodude09]

On FM11 I had great success with a 3-6-1 with AC Milan. I started to develop it after reading an article with Guardiola about the more midfielders on the pitch, the better

lined up something like this:

- 3 CB's, the outer two on stopper, the middle on cover

- 1 DM as an anchor man I think he was

- 2 CM's, one deep lying playmaker, and the other an advanced playmaker

- AM was a trequartista I think? with the two wide players being Inside Forwards

- Advanced Forward up front on his own.

It was something that worked quite well if I remember rightly, and created some very nice football - might have a go at it on FM12 if I get the chance.

[jimbobBRFC]

All over I think, the W-M aspects of that were used as well as the other stuff I used with Santos

Thanks

On FM11 I had great success with a 3-6-1 with AC Milan. I started to develop it after reading an article with Guardiola about the more midfielders on the pitch, the better

lined up something like this:

- 3 CB's, the outer two on stopper, the middle on cover

- 1 DM as an anchor man I think he was

- 2 CM's, one deep lying playmaker, and the other an advanced playmaker

- AM was a trequartista I think? with the two wide players being Inside Forwards

- Advanced Forward up front on his own.

It was something that worked quite well if I remember rightly, and created some very nice football - might have a go at it on FM12 if I get the chance.

Did you not find you got demolished down the wings? 3DC's and a DM is very very narrow, unless the wide players tracked back I can imagine it being hard to defend against. Maybe set the DCL/R to mark the opposition wide players.

I am a firm believer in Guardiola's philosophy of playing plenty of midfielders. Games are won and lost in the midfield so if you can win that and keep the ball then the opposition cannot score. Spain do it so well and Barca do, yes it can be criticised as being boring but it gets results. Personally I find watching Spain/Barca intrguing, really do enjoy watching the way they make space and move the ball around. My variation on Cleons formation should have 7 midfielders, going to tweak it ever so slightly, which if done correctly and how I imagine should crete planty of chances and give me plenty of the ball.

[retrodude09]

Did you not find you got demolished down the wings? 3DC's and a DM is very very narrow, unless the wide players tracked back I can imagine it being hard to defend against. Maybe set the DCL/R to mark the opposition wide players.

I am a firm believer in Guardiola's philosophy of playing plenty of midfielders. Games are won and lost in the midfield so if you can win that and keep the ball then the opposition cannot score. Spain do it so well and Barca do, yes it can be criticised as being boring but it gets results. Personally I find watching Spain/Barca intrguing, really do enjoy watching the way they make space and move the ball around. My variation on Cleons formation should have 7 midfielders, going to tweak it ever so slightly, which if done correctly and how I imagine should crete planty of chances and give me plenty of the ball.

I honestly can't remember, I don't think I did, but I may be wrong as this was quite some time ago.

I'm not really sure how any one can say Barcelona/Spain are boring, they play the best football in the word and I think people just look at it like "oh, well they have the ball all the time so why don't they score more goals" which is annoying because if you look at how they engineer the space, and create the chances they do, then people would realise just how amazing they actually are.

[jimbobBRFC]

I honestly can't remember, I don't think I did, but I may be wrong as this was quite some time ago.

I'm not really sure how any one can say Barcelona/Spain are boring, they play the best football in the word and I think people just look at it like "oh, well they have the ball all the time so why don't they score more goals" which is annoying because if you look at how they engineer the space, and create the chances they do, then people would realise just how amazing they actually are.

yeah I completely agree. Was talking yo my Dad about when we were watching the game last night and he was just saying they dont play football properly. They just keep the ball there is no excitement, its way to boring. Which at times I can agree with but when they up the tempo and really get going it is beautiful to watch. Makes me upset to be English and watch us lump it long up to Carroll and hope for the best. I think the the WC England should play the 5-5 as detailed above. See how Spain counter that

[retrodude09]

yeah I completely agree. Was talking yo my Dad about when we were watching the game last night and he was just saying they dont play football properly. They just keep the ball there is no excitement, its way to boring. Which at times I can agree with but when they up the tempo and really get going it is beautiful to watch. Makes me upset to be English and watch us lump it long up to Carroll and hope for the best. I think the the WC England should play the 5-5 as detailed above. See how Spain counter that

Last night they were far from boring, in fact, that's probably the best I've seen Spain play for a while, and there's a great article here about how they were different last night compared to how they've been all tournament.

It's slightly off topic, but on this years FM, particularly on the latest patch, I've really struggled to keep possession and it's something that's annoying me as possession is what I try and build my tactics on, so now I'm looking at how I can keep possession better, and then use that possession to destroy teams.

Another thing I dislike atm is how with the likes of through balls, the settings are 'Often', 'Sometimes' or 'Rarely' and I don't think any of them are applicable apart from 'sometimes'.

My next tactic is going to be a 4-6-0 similar to what Spain have used throughout the tournament, but I want to finish my season first - it's something that I think can work brilliantly, if you get the balance right, so we'll have to see.

[jimbobBRFC]

Last night they were far from boring, in fact, that's probably the best I've seen Spain play for a while, and there's a great article here about how they were different last night compared to how they've been all tournament.

It's slightly off topic, but on this years FM, particularly on the latest patch, I've really struggled to keep possession and it's something that's annoying me as possession is what I try and build my tactics on, so now I'm looking at how I can keep possession better, and then use that possession to destroy teams.

Another thing I dislike atm is how with the likes of through balls, the settings are 'Often', 'Sometimes' or 'Rarely' and I don't think any of them are applicable apart from 'sometimes'.

My next tactic is going to be a 4-6-0 similar to what Spain have used throughout the tournament, but I want to finish my season first - it's something that I think can work brilliantly, if you get the balance right, so we'll have to see.

They did play well although I think the tiredness of Italy helped them out massively. once Motta left the pitch it was a non contest.

Yeah, Im playing a 4-6-0 at the moment, see the link in the OP and Im really struggling to keep possesion. It should really dominate due to the massive amount of optionms available but just doesnt. I, like you, or a massive advocate for keeping the ball. I know a lot of people who say possesion isnt everything which is very true but if you are finifshing games with 60-75% possesion you shouldnt lose simple as. Im going to try and create something similar to Cleons mentioned formation, may be tweaked slighlty depending on the players I have available but want to keep lots of possesion, I want to play three at the back, without a striker and keep possesion. That is my aim for my next tactical project.

Ive managed to score plenty of goals without a striker, now I just want to improve my possesion stats.

[retrodude09]

They did play well although I think the tiredness of Italy helped them out massively. once Motta left the pitch it was a non contest.

Yeah, Im playing a 4-6-0 at the moment, see the link in the OP and Im really struggling to keep possesion. It should really dominate due to the massive amount of optionms available but just doesnt. I, like you, or a massive advocate for keeping the ball. I know a lot of people who say possesion isnt everything which is very true but if you are finifshing games with 60-75% possesion you shouldnt lose simple as. Im going to try and create something similar to Cleons mentioned formation, may be tweaked slighlty depending on the players I have available but want to keep lots of possesion, I want to play three at the back, without a striker and keep possesion. That is my aim for my next tactical project.

Ive managed to score plenty of goals without a striker, now I just want to improve my possesion stats.

To me, possession is everything, if you have the majority of the ball, then the opponent has less chance of scoring. I'd rather have the possession and then turn that into goals than the other way around because the changes will be subtler and in my opinion easier to implement.

I don't know why it seems so difficult, but for some reason, it seems much harder in a 4-5-1 which is annoying because I'd rather use the 4-2-3-1 but the ME does't deal with CM's defending well enough, so I'm kinda stuck.

[jimbobBRFC]

To me, possession is everything, if you have the majority of the ball, then the opponent has less chance of scoring. I'd rather have the possession and then turn that into goals than the other way around because the changes will be subtler and in my opinion easier to implement.

I don't know why it seems so difficult, but for some reason, it seems much harder in a 4-5-1 which is annoying because I'd rather use the 4-2-3-1 but the ME does't deal with CM's defending well enough, so I'm kinda stuck.

Ive just started trialling a W-M formation similar the the one Cleon details in her Sports Center thread apart from the fact it has 3 attacking midfielders not 3 strikers. Works absoloute wonders with possesion, Ill get some proper screenshots and details up when i get home from work. The lowest % possesion ive had is 56% against United which we drew 3-3 at home, was 2-0 down at half time so cant really complain. Keeping a lot of possesion does lower chances created but Ive found thatbetter quality chances are created, managed to put 3 past Newcastle so goals arnt a problem which i thought could be due to the lack of an out and out striker. RVP does the job from AMC and Walcott/Gervinho chip in with quite a few goals.

If anyone can tell me how I can go back and watch highlights from a match there was a top quality passing goal I scored against united, just forgot to get screenies. Any help on that would be top class

[Cleon]

If you go back into a game you played and click on the analysis tab you can view every single clip back with ease. Just select the goal you want to view back and bingo job done. You can even rewind the clip back to others if you wish. Or just go back into it and select a different pass, shot, goal etc by clicking the little dots.

You can also click the goal to view the clip off the overview screen

[jimbobBRFC]

If you go back into a game you played and click on the analysis tab you can view every single clip back with ease. Just select the goal you want to view back and bingo job done. You can even rewind the clip back to others if you wish. Or just go back into it and select a different pass, shot, goal etc by clicking the little dots.

You can also click the goal to view the clip off the overview screen

Thanks Cleon, what do you mean by go back into the game ive played? Thats the bit im struggling with finding how to get back to the analysis tab.

Out of interest in your WM formation did you not find your defence got split in half way to many times. The amount of through balls that go through the defence is unbelievable. I have the pace to make it up and a deep DLine so it isnt a massive problem, just could do with a way to tighten thigns up.

[Cleon]

Click on the result from your fixtures....

As for the WM formation, why would I get split open by through balls? The DMC's are the key to stop this happening. If you have them contribute in attacks then yes it'll happen. But if you have them defensive you basically play with almost a flat back 5. Antiticpation, workrate, teamwork, composure all vital for playing this way though for every single player.

[jimbobBRFC]

Click on the result from your fixtures....

As for the WM formation, why would I get split open by through balls? The DMC's are the key to stop this happening. If you have them contribute in attacks then yes it'll happen. But if you have them defensive you basically play with almost a flat back 5. Antiticpation, workrate, teamwork, composure all vital for playing this way though for every single player.

Oh right, its that easy is it :o

ahhhh that may be the problem, I have a DLP defend and a DM support. The DLP is set up to barely move much and just play passes always be an option etc.. The DM on the other hand is encouraged to get forward and support attacks, maybe that could be where my problem lies. Coupled with a more attacking DL probably is where the problem lies.

[Cleon]

Oh right, its that easy is it :o

ahhhh that may be the problem, I have a DLP defend and a DM support. The DLP is set up to barely move much and just play passes always be an option etc.. The DM on the other hand is encouraged to get forward and support attacks, maybe that could be where my problem lies. Coupled with a more attacking DL probably is where the problem lies.

Yups that easy

As the W-M is naturally very attacking (I know you're not playing a W-M really but its simliar) then you need to make sure that your defensive players do exactly that, defend. If not you'll get picked apart by the better teams and leave huge holes. And seeing as you only have 1 centreback this can be a massive problem against AMC's or 2 striker formations.

However if you sort the DMC's out you'll be fine. The W-M is the best shape I've used for allowing possession retention. I think on average even against the better sides I was achieving around 70% and 80+ against weaker sides

[jimbobBRFC]

Yups that easy

As the W-M is naturally very attacking (I know you're not playing a W-M really but its simliar) then you need to make sure that your defensive players do exactly that, defend. If not you'll get picked apart by the better teams and leave huge holes. And seeing as you only have 1 centreback this can be a massive problem against AMC's or 2 striker formations.

However if you sort the DMC's out you'll be fine. The W-M is the best shape I've used for allowing possession retention. I think on average even against the better sides I was achieving around 70% and 80+ against weaker sides

Yeah ive found that ball retention is top class. I think the problem is my attacking full back and my more offensive Defensive mid, as you said it is a very attacking tactic so if I set my back five to defend thats still five players who are attacking, so it shouldnt be much of a problem. Probably dont really need a wing back to be honest. Was definately seeing the big holes, especially against United, gave away two goals from being open and one penalty which cant really do anything about. Still needs tweaks

Worst possesion ive had is the 57% against United, dominated Newcastle and Udinese although just couldnt score against Udinese. Last time I tried the WM it was a hugh failure but Im loving this new one, especially without the striker strikers are overrated anyway.

[Romanista1994]

Worst possesion ive had is the 57% against United, dominated Newcastle and Udinese although just couldnt score against Udinese. Last time I tried the WM it was a hugh failure but Im loving this new one, especially without the striker strikers are overrated anyway.

A strikerless formation would be extremely interesting from a squad building perspective, because strikers are, if not overrated, certainly overpriced. There's a couple of ways to get around the potential problem of a lack of goalscoring ability, for example by buying goalscoring attacking midfielders or by moulding young strikers to be able to play deeper. Imo it would warrant a post in furiousuk's Squad Building thread if you stick with this formation.

[jimbobBRFC]

A strikerless formation would be extremely interesting from a squad building perspective, because strikers are, if not overrated, certainly overpriced. There's a couple of ways to get around the potential problem of a lack of goalscoring ability, for example by buying goalscoring attacking midfielders or by moulding young strikers to be able to play deeper. Imo it would warrant a post in furiousuk's Squad Building thread if you stick with this formation.

Well I have RVP at the moment and he is quality in that position. Ive also got Sanogo, im going to retrain him but will probably use him as a striking option to stretch the play when i need a goal. As I said though RVP is brilliant, just now when im signing strikers I look for technical ability as well as goal scoring ability. Somone like Rooney would be perfect, what would you like me to post in the squad building thread about? how ive built a squad to best utilise my formation?

[Romanista1994]

Well I have RVP at the moment and he is quality in that position. Ive also got Sanogo, im going to retrain him but will probably use him as a striking option to stretch the play when i need a goal. As I said though RVP is brilliant, just now when im signing strikers I look for technical ability as well as goal scoring ability. Somone like Rooney would be perfect, what would you like me to post in the squad building thread about? how ive built a squad to best utilise my formation?

You don't have to do a post, but it would be interesting to see how a squad evolves to fit a formation that is far from standard, especially one which doesn't use a position that has been a cornerstone of traditional tactics. You'd have to play with this formation for a number of years to make it worthwhile, though.

[jimbobBRFC]

You don't have to do a post, but it would be interesting to see how a squad evolves to fit a formation that is far from standard, especially one which doesn't use a position that has been a cornerstone of traditional tactics. You'd have to play with this formation for a number of years to make it worthwhile, though.

yeah I would like to do a post as I love writing about tactics etc. As you said though it would take a few years worth of gametime and that would take me a good few months to do as Im a very slow player. Could maybe write about the theory of how Im planning on building my squad.

[Govnar1]

I use striker-less formation in Pro Vercelli save. I am not allowed to buy players (challenge rule), so I have to rely on clubs youth academy.

AP---AM---W

--BBM--BBM--

------DLP-----

WB-DC-DC-FB

------GK-------

After back to back promotions Pro Vercelli is currently (end of 4th season) a mid table Serie A team.

[jimbobBRFC]

The Withdrawn WM, tactical Genius or complete failure?

Just thought Id throw in a little write up on the current formation Im working on. So this is the basic shape, similar to Cleons WM but with the obvious difference of not having a striker.

May seem a little confusing with the arrows everywhere but Ill give a description of the roles and why Ive picked it

Goalkeeper: Sweeper Keeper Support Even though Im planning on playing a relatively deep line I always use a sweeper keeper simply for personal preference

Right Back: Full Back Defend My winger is providing the width on this right hand side so my full back is more of a tuck in and help out defensively rather than a Dani Alvesesque full back. Although he does still get forward and provide width when needed

Center Back: Central Defender Cover The idea is that the defensive midfielders will pick up the strikers, whether it be one or two and the center back can simply concetrate on dropping off and mopping up through balls, cutting out through balls etc etc

Left Back: Wing Back Support A little more attacking on this side mainly because of my IF cutting inside so a wide option still needs to be provided. Im considering switching to an Full Back Support simply because I seem to be getting caught out a lot at the back

Defensive Mid Left: DLP Defend The more defensive of my two DM's, he sits back a little further to provide that defensive cover if my wing back decides to get forward. Sits in space and sprays passes about the pitch, expect quite a low passing accuracy as I want him to try a lot of "hollywood" passes

Defensive Mid Right: Defensive Mid Defend Although both on a defend duty Ive tweaked this guys mentality and runs from deep to allow him to push a little further forward, ive found him popping up on the edge and inside the box finishing off moves, although the defensive stability this sacrafices may cause me to change this

MCL: BWM Support The destroyer, chases the ball down wherever it goes and tries to win it back as high up the pitch as possible. Im not concerned with him being out of position due to the five players behind him defending

MCR: AP Attack Gets forward and helps out in attack, expect this guy to be a goal threat and almost interchanging positions with my AMC when he drops deep.

AML: Inside Forward Attack A deadly finisher from the wing, cuts inside, latches on to through balls and scores plenty. Currently using Gervinho in this role but have used RVP/Sanogo there to great effect.

AMC: Treq Attack The creative hub, the playmaker. This guy is vital to the team, most things go through him. A good passer, mover and finisher. Expecting him to be involved in most of the good stuff we do

AMR: Winger support An out and out winger, beats a man and gets a cross in. He is set to support simply because I want him to start a little deeper to give him chance to turn and run at his man. Also if the full back follows him deeper 9 times out of 10 he will beat him to a through ball with his pace

Fluid Philosophy, Short passing, high closing down, cautious tackling, drill crosses, less roaming (although its encouraged a little more in my front three).

The second image here is almost a heat map of where I want each player to operate. Very very confusing to look at I know but gives a good indication of where I want who to be at what times. The basic theory behind it is it gives an overload in attack, potentially six players attacking as well as plenty of variation. The defence may be stretched over on the right due to the winger, an on rushing MC and the Treq. Giving the IF the room he needs to dart inbetween full back and center back. Ball retention is also a massive part of this tactic, possesion stats have been very high and I will get some in game screenies up later tonight. Ive set the DMCL as my primary playmaker (thanks to TomTuck for his advice on this) this just gives the man in space the preferred ball receiver. he should always keep himself available to receive the ball and is always a backwards reference point. Almost the Busquets role with a slight bit more creative freedom to play the long splittling through balls.

Any advice or tweaks would be welcomed

Jimbob

[jimbobBRFC]

I use striker-less formation in Pro Vercelli save. I am not allowed to buy players (challenge rule), so I have to rely on clubs youth academy.

AP---AM---W

--BBM--BBM--

------DLP-----

WB-DC-DC-FB

------GK-------

After back to back promotions Pro Vercelli is currently (end of 4th season) a mid table Serie A team.

Very challenging rules do the have a good youth setup at Vercilli? B2B promotions is good considering youve signed nobody.

[Cleon]

I think majority of people have had a Pro Vercelli on the go at one point or another. If not then why not?!!!!!

[Govnar1]

Very challenging rules do the have a good youth setup at Vercilli? B2B promotions is good considering youve signed nobody.

No, it's still poor after four years of investments. I got two usable players in the 2nd season and one good player (compared to rest of the squad) in 3rd season. Youths promoted in the 4th season were just plain awful, only usable player out of this class will be pacy SC that I plan to retrain as AMC. Currently the biggest problem is lack of LBs in the squad. First choice LB didn't wont to sign new contract and second one is old and rally slow. This is hurting results badly as we have to attack down left side for number of reasons. Squad is by far the worst in Serie A. Our best player would not make the bench at any other team in the league. We spend around 800.000,00 euros a year on wages .

[ZdlR]

No, it's still poor after four years of investments. I got two usable players in the 2nd season and one good player (compared to rest of the squad) in 3rd season. Youths promoted in the 4th season were just plain awful, only usable player out of this class will be pacy SC that I plan to retrain as AMC. Currently the biggest problem is lack of LBs in the squad. First choice LB didn't wont to sign new contract and second one is old and rally slow. This is hurting results badly as we have to attack down left side for number of reasons. Squad is by far the worst in Serie A. Our best player would not make the bench at any other team in the league. We spend around 800.000,00 euros a year on wages .

Can I ask how you manage to achieve midtable despite the gulf in class? You must have quite the tactic...

[Cleon]

Can I ask how you manage to achieve midtable despite the gulf in class? You must have quite the tactic...

Apart from Juve and both Milans Serie A is pretty even. Especially when Napoli start selling off their good players.

[Govnar1]

Apart from Juve and both Milans Serie A is pretty even. Especially when Napoli start selling off their good players.

This + AI is just poor in my opinion. My tactic always attacks down left and AI still hasn't figured this out after four seasons! I started playing without buying players as AI just can't compete at squad building. Formation was made for similar reasons, as AIs defenders can not cope with pacy poachers.

[jimbobBRFC]

This + AI is just poor in my opinion. My tactic always attacks down left and AI still hasn't figured this out after four seasons! I started playing without buying players as AI just can't compete at squad building. Formation was made for similar reasons, as AIs defenders can not cope with pacy poachers.

Its still an acheivment to get a third division italian side mid table in Serie A after four seasons. Although as mentioned above it is a pretty average league if you discount the top 4 or 5.

On another note, ive finished the write up on my formation, see above. Would love to hear peoples views, especially people who have used three defenders and two DM's before as defensively is what I am sturggling with.

[Romanista1994]

On another note, ive finished the write up on my formation, see above. Would love to hear peoples views, especially people who have used three defenders and two DM's before as defensively is what I am sturggling with.

High agility is really important for the lone centreback, coupled with good mental stats and decent pace. He'll occasionally face multiple threats at the same time, so it's really important that he's aware of them and able to cover a lot of ground to close them down. This is why Mascherano quickly became my defender of choice despite being a defensive midfielder by trade.

Another thing is setting your DM's to specifically mark a striker or an attacking midfielder to help the centreback. A thing that you have to watch out for, however is to not have them both back from corners and specifically marking two players who are in the opposition area when the corner is taken. If the ball gets punted forwards they will both charge up the pitch to close down the players they're supposed to mark and this left a winger of the opposition completely free in my half once, but Macherano managed to come across to deny a chance that would have been scored with a better attacker and a worse, or even just slower defender.

[jimbobBRFC]

High agility is really important for the lone centreback, coupled with good mental stats and decent pace. He'll occasionally face multiple threats at the same time, so it's really important that he's aware of them and able to cover a lot of ground to close them down. This is why Mascherano quickly became my defender of choice despite being a defensive midfielder by trade.

Another thing is setting your DM's to specifically mark a striker or an attacking midfielder to help the centreback. A thing that you have to watch out for, however is to not have them both back from corners and specifically marking two players who are in the opposition area when the corner is taken. If the ball gets punted forwards they will both charge up the pitch to close down the players they're supposed to mark and this left a winger of the opposition completely free in my half once, but Macherano managed to come across to deny a chance that would have been scored with a better attacker and a worse, or even just slower defender.

Yeah ive realised that, Ive just started a save with monaco as my Arsenal save was really just a test to tweak ths strikerless formation before moving onto a better, more long term challenging game. I think with the lack of an exceptional DC im going ot get caught out way to many times, even in the friendlys I was getting split open regularly so I may have to revert back to a standard four man defence. I may even set 3DC's and 2WB's but make the outer two DC's stoppers with a pretty high mentality so they step forward and almost become DM's when attacking. If not Ill drop one DM into the DC position so it almost becomes a 4-1-2-3-0.

I should still keep possesion well as there are still a lot of options available, especially if i make the DC a stopper to step up. Will also allow me to let my full backs get further forward and provide a passing option out wide. May even be better for ball retention, got plenty to think about now

[Govnar1]

4-1-2-3-0 is best striker-less formation in my experience, especially as human managers can force AML/Rs to defend. Playing with one DC is suicide in my opinion, you are abandoning the most important area of the field! DMCs and FBs won't stop AML/R cutting into huge gaps between DC and FBs.

Absence of forward in addition to poor club reputation (in my case) forced opposition defense to move forward and this made them incredibly vulnerable to trough balls and runs from deep. Main problem in my team was lack of coordination between passers and runners which is funny when you consider that my team and tactic was basically unchanged for four years! What I wanted to achieve (but somewhat failed) is very fluid system where every player can be passer and runner depending on situation. However teams ball retention ability was incredible considering the quality of available players.

[jimbobBRFC]

4-1-2-3-0 is best striker-less formation in my experience, especially as human managers can force AML/Rs to defend. Playing with one DC is suicide in my opinion, you are abandoning the most important area of the field! DMCs and FBs won't stop AML/R cutting into huge gaps between DC and FBs.

Absence of forward in addition to poor club reputation (in my case) forced opposition defense to move forward and this made them incredibly vulnerable to trough balls and runs from deep. Main problem in my team was lack of coordination between passers and runners which is funny when you consider that my team and tactic was basically unchanged for four years! What I wanted to achieve (but somewhat failed) is very fluid system where every player can be passer and runner depending on situation. However teams ball retention ability was incredible considering the quality of available players.

Yeah I have found that. For my last friendly last night I switched to a 4-2-1-3, trying to mirror Spains setup, going to play around with that and the 4-1-2-3 as you suggested. I was getting split open all to often with the 1DC exactly how you said, if one of the full backs are the DC gets caught out of position its pretty much guaranteed a goal or at least a very good chance.

Im a high repuatatioon team in my league though (monaco in ligue 2) so I think teams will try to shut up shop against me and play on the counter, which is even more of a reason to play 2DC's. I completely agree with the lack of co-ordination, watching in full the amount of stray passes is unbelievable, somehow we still manage to keep 60% possesion. I think that will come with tactical fluidity though.

Im even considering switching to:

-------DC-DC-DC-------

--WB--------------WB--

--------MC--MC---------

-AMR----AMC----AML-

That should give a little more defensive stability, set the outer two (or the central) defender to stopper depending on opposition formation/strikers, and should be a lot better.

[Govnar1]

Yeah I have found that. For my last friendly last night I switched to a 4-2-1-3, trying to mirror Spains setup, going to play around with that and the 4-1-2-3 as you suggested. I was getting split open all to often with the 1DC exactly how you said, if one of the full backs are the DC gets caught out of position its pretty much guaranteed a goal or at least a very good chance.

Im a high repuatatioon team in my league though (monaco in ligue 2) so I think teams will try to shut up shop against me and play on the counter, which is even more of a reason to play 2DC's. I completely agree with the lack of co-ordination, watching in full the amount of stray passes is unbelievable, somehow we still manage to keep 60% possesion. I think that will come with tactical fluidity though.

Im even considering switching to:

-------DC-DC-DC-------

--WB--------------WB--

--------MC--MC---------

-AMR----AMC----AML-

That should give a little more defensive stability, set the outer two (or the central) defender to stopper depending on opposition formation/strikers, and should be a lot better.

3 DC are good option only against teams that play two up front otherwise you leave too big gap between defense and midfield. Additionally DCL/R are poorly simulated in FM ME.

[jimbobBRFC]

3 DC are good option only against teams that play two up front otherwise you leave too big gap between defense and midfield. Additionally DCL/R are poorly simulated in FM ME.

Yeah yeah, thats why Id set one of them up as a stopper with high mentality to get him to push out and almost become a DM. Id just set them two as cover to start with and see how the strikers were behaving, if they were coming deeper Id revert them back to standard DC's Defend, if they were pressing on and trying to run onto the ball Id leave them as cover.

[retrodude09]

It's interesting to watch your development of this tactic, and I'm intrigued to see where this will go.

I'm going to finish off my current season with PSG, and then move to a striker-less formation, just because it will make my game more interesting and it's challenge.

PS - I can't see regenerated faces, and when I try and change it, the option is greyed out for 'real and generated pictures' does anyone know how I can change this?

[jimbobBRFC]

It's interesting to watch your development of this tactic, and I'm intrigued to see where this will go.

I'm going to finish off my current season with PSG, and then move to a striker-less formation, just because it will make my game more interesting and it's challenge.

PS - I can't see regenerated faces, and when I try and change it, the option is greyed out for 'real and generated pictures' does anyone know how I can change this?

Im really enjoying developing it actually, one of the biggest tactical challenges ive ever taken on in FM. It was going ok with Arsenal but since Ive started with Monaco it is very very hit and miss. Got beat 1-0 in my first game, dominated but just couldnt score lost to a wonder strike. Won second game 3-2, dominated for 80minutes and was 3-0, they pulled two back which lead to a very nervy finish. Final game was 1-0 down, switched a few roles around and pulled it back to 1-1, dominated the last 30 minutes but again couldnt put the ball in the back of the net. Need an AMC with good finishing and playmaking abilities, got a guy coming back from international duty, hopefully he will be my saviour.

EDIT: Will update on my current tactic later today

[Seule]

Interesting thread Jimbob, I've tried something similar to your formation above, except I used a single striker as a treq and had both fullbacks set to purely defend. I'll be interested to see how you go with it, I've not really gone too far with it, but the principles seem solid enough. I'm actually about to start a game and see if i can make a 3-3-4 work using something pretty similar to your setup :

FB(Sup)----DC(Cov)----FB(Sup)

------DLP(Def)-----ANC(Def)

-----------MC(B2B or BWM, not sure yet)

IF----------------------IF

------Treq-----Poa

So I'll be following your progress, especially on making that defense work soundly.

[jimbobBRFC]

Interesting thread Jimbob, I've tried something similar to your formation above, except I used a single striker as a treq and had both fullbacks set to purely defend. I'll be interested to see how you go with it, I've not really gone too far with it, but the principles seem solid enough. I'm actually about to start a game and see if i can make a 3-3-4 work using something pretty similar to your setup :

FB(Sup)----DC(Cov)----FB(Sup)

------DLP(Def)-----ANC(Def)

-----------MC(B2B or BWM, not sure yet)

IF----------------------IF

------Treq-----Poa

So I'll be following your progress, especially on making that defense work soundly.

Yeah ive sort of give up with the DL/DC/DR combination. The gaps between the full backs and center back was just to big, ive got a DC/DC/DC combination that works well against two striker formations. It has now developed into something like a

--DR--DC--DC--DL--

----------DM---------

-------MC--MC-------

-AMR---AMC---AML--

The variations are a MC dropped back into DM for when playing against a 4-2-3-1 just for the extra cover against the 3 AM's. The final variation is the DM dropped back into DC and the DL/R pushed forward into WBR/L. All team instructions are same, although I have changed passing to default rather than short, simply because technically i dont think my players are good techincally good enough to constantly knock the ball short without giving it away.

My AML IF is my main source of goals, through balls slipped in and finished is the most popular route. Even considering changing my AMR from a winger to an IF just to give another goal option. The main problem im finding is when the opposition defence has the ball, as much as i tweak OI's I cant get them to be closed down. So the DC's have loads of time to knock it between themselves and the keeper before picking a long ball with no pressure whatsover. I dont think the ME can simulate the closing down as it needs to be for this tactic to be effective.

Keep me updated if you manage to get the 3man defence to work and ill keep udating with my findings

Jimbob

[Govnar1]

Pressing is so badly implemented that its almost useless. I always get flamed when I mention it so I just don't bother any more.

And I just love man marking specific instruction that seems to have different meaning for every position but mostly: "mark opponent from time to time, to a certain point (as in hybrid man/zonal system) and do it very casually".

[jimbobBRFC]

Pressing is so badly implemented that its almost useless. I always get flamed when I mention it so I just don't bother any more.

And I just love man marking specific instruction that seems to have different meaning for every position but mostly: "mark opponent from time to time, to a certain point (as in hybrid man/zonal system) and do it very casually".

I do agree man marking specific always seem to work relatively well for me, its just pressing that gets on my nerves. Last night for example opposition had a throw in on line with the edge of my box, my DL was watching there closest player on the edge of the box and my AML was stood behind his man. So the guy takes the throw in to the guy my AML was supposed to be marking, rather than listen to his high pressing instructions and close him down from behind he runs away from him back towards the half line, giving the opposition player time to pick a pass and ping a ball in. Luckily they didnt score but still, whats a high press game with no high pressing. Im not slating the ME as its the best its been in a long time but sometimes it just get on my nerves a little I dont think it is dynamic enough to simulate more abstract tactics i.e no striker, liberio etc

[Govnar1]

Well there is no team pressing, no high or deep pressing, no false pressing, no space flooding... just disjointed and disorganized running between opposition without apparent plan or goal.

[retrodude09]

I sort of get what you mean about pressing, it's not sophisticated enough to be anything like the likes of Spain and Barcelona do.

As the comment above mentions, you can't false press or anything, something which I think could be quite useful in FM

[jimbobBRFC]

Yeah exactly, Im very close to giving up on this strikerless formation and trying something else. Really is getting on my nerves, cant score goals cant keep a clean sheet. Played against a team last night who had lost 7 in a row and played 4-2-4, thats 2DM's AML/R and two strikers. i had 6 midfielders on the pitch and still couldnt keep possesion, got beat 2-0 with 35% possesion. Had plenty of chances just the lack of striker killed me. Ill put some screenies up later, see if anyone has some last minute tips or tweaks to make.

On another note does anyone else have anything else abstract that could be tried? Im always looking for a new challenge

[Seule]

Well I figured since I was trying something that I wasn't used to (I always seem to wind up playing 1 striker, 2 IF's) I gave Fiorentina a good shot of cash (25 million pounds) before starting to work. Thus far I've had good results, as you would expect with a 25 million pound headstart.

This formation :

These results :

The last result is important.

When we went up by 2, they pulled one back with a fluke free-kick, but we re-established the 2 goal buffer just before half time. After half time, Klose scored basically by exploiting the MASSIVE gap between my fullback and central defender, and Mphela's goal was something similar, with Klose drawing my DC into a challenge and laying it off for the unmarked Mphela to run through.

At that point, I used the shouts hassle opponents, stay on your feet, play narrower, and exploit the flanks. Douglas scored a header from a corner, and Ljajic got on the end of a couple of gorgeous crosses from the wing.

Conclusion : Tactically I have flaws, big ones. Needs a lot of work defensively, but if it could keep going at 4 goals a game, defense might not be quite so important. My intention is to continue with the "test" and then try it again, only without a 25 million head start. It's making me look at the match engine in a whole new light though, pretty much every team I've played with so far has wound up using inside forwards running hard at a defence to set up a forward, I'm quite enjoying watching this more expansive crossing from the wings style.

Defensively at the moment I have man marking set up with aggressive tackling, and high pressing. The defensive line is just a tick this side of high, with a normal width and tempo. The two wingers are set to tight mark their opponents so for the most part I haven't had to deal with any marauding full-backs tearing up my wings. I've obviously chosen two very good defensive midfielders and have a lot of pace across the defensive line, but I think that will be a necessity for anything like this to work.

Abstract enough for you jimbob? it does require a whole lot more work ...

[Seule]

And yes I did have the thought of trying this with Arsenal using a formation of :

--------------------GK

Sagna----------Koscielny----------Vermaelen

---------Song------------Someone(The AI seems rather fond of buying Fellaini)

----------------Ramsey

Walcott--------------------------Gervinho

--------Van Persie----Chamakh

Just to see how it went.

[jimbobBRFC]

Well I figured since I was trying something that I wasn't used to (I always seem to wind up playing 1 striker, 2 IF's) I gave Fiorentina a good shot of cash (25 million pounds) before starting to work. Thus far I've had good results, as you would expect with a 25 million pound headstart.

This formation :

These results :

The last result is important.

When we went up by 2, they pulled one back with a fluke free-kick, but we re-established the 2 goal buffer just before half time. After half time, Klose scored basically by exploiting the MASSIVE gap between my fullback and central defender, and Mphela's goal was something similar, with close drawing my DC into a challenge and laying it off for the unmarked Mphela to run through.

At that point, I used the shouts hassle opponents, stay on your feet, play narrower, and exploit the flanks. Douglas scored a header from a corner, and Ljajic got on the end of a couple of gorgeous crosses from the wing.

Conclusion : Tactically I have flaws, big ones. Needs a lot of work defensively, but if it could keep going at 4 goals a game, defense might not be quite so important. My intention is to continue with the "test" and then try it again, only without a 25 million head start. It's making me look at the match engine in a whole new light though, pretty much every team I've played with so far has wound up using inside forwards running hard at a defence to set up a forward, I'm quite enjoying watching this more expansive crossing from the wings style.

Defensively at the moment I have man marking set up with aggressive tackling, and high pressing. The defensive line is just a tick this side of high, with a normal width and tempo. The two wingers are set to tight mark their opponents so for the most part I haven't had to deal with any marauding full-backs tearing up my wings. I've obviously chosen two very good defensive midfielders and have a lot of pace across the defensive line, but I think that will be a necessity for anything like this to work.

Abstract enough for you jimbob? it does require a whole lot more work ...

Yeah I like, its just the DL/DC/DR combination I really dont like. It just never ever seems to work well for me as you said you conceded two goals with the gap between the DC/DL and I just cant find away to get rid of the gap without sacrificing a lot of team width. Although the results you have got seem to suggest it isnt that much of a problem for you, seen as your scoring an absurd amount of goals I think my problem when using that defence combination was that I had no striker, so possesion was high but I didnt score too many goals. Was losing a lot of games 1-0 2-1 etc simply because of a lack of goalscorer.

I do like the look of the formation though seems to have the right mix of everything, wingers to stretch the play, an attacking midfielder, a creator and a finisher up top. Im starting to plan something new now, the strikerless thing just isnt working for me. Going to start with a pretty standard formation the tweak little bits to make it different. I love the 4-3-1-2 but have never been able to get it working, that may be my starting point, how I will change it I have no idea yet