Neil Train Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 hi, i've always been bad at watching my defenders i'm never sure where they should be positioned and are they making mistakes or are we just getting done by some serious attacking guile from opponents. i'm mid-way thru pre-season and have put off making any defensive acquisitions while i watch my existing back 4. the two attributes that are confusing me are positioning and anticipation. i've read a lot on this forum and elsewhere about both but still dont understand them and dont see how they work in the ME. my understanding is that they go hand in hand: defender anticipates where the ball is going then positions himself correctly. but i'd like to better understand the mechanics of this and what i should be watching for. more importantly, playing a defensive 442 cover/stopper which attribute is most important and why? i only have limited funds so a) cant get great anticipation AND positioning and b) it wouldnt be fun because i want to understand both and prioritise. neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim morrow Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 - If you can't get anticipation AND positioning, choose positioning cause lack of anticipation(and concentration) can be masked if you play your DC in "limited DC" instead of standard. To know which DC will be stopper and other one cover : - Cover : the best one in pace and acceleration, anticipation. - Stopper : the best one in aggression, bravery and determination. For me : Positioning : it help the player to position himself on the field according to his team mate(defensive line for example) and to match events. Anticipation : it help the player to predict and react to an event. For example for a cover, If he as good positioning but low anticipation, he will stand at the right place to cover his defense, but will react slower if he see a striker going thru the defence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 thanks, maybe i knew more than i thought. my stopper has aggression i'm less worried about him he will try to close down everywhere. i'm more worried about the fullbacks and the cover position. i could get a cover with anticipation and positioning but lacking pace, or get someone faster but with lower positioning and anticipation. and i really dont understand positioning and anticipation for fullbacks. i'm still not quite grasping it. anticipation is for understanding what's about to happen. THEN positioning comes into play, getting into the right place to defend. but my players are all over the place..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsupian Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 Anticipation will help the defender predicting ball movement and player movement. Positioning is constantly used by the defender to find the best position on the field. If the defender can't predict where players or the ball will move he will have more trouble using his positioning attribute because he doesn't have all the right information to use it correctly. If a defender has high anticipation but low positioning he will be able to predict how the ball and the players will move but he will have trouble using this information to give himself an optimal position on the field (he will still have a good position as he is skilled in that area but his position won't be adapted to the situation very well or he miscalculated the situation and thus positioned himself wrongly despite his high skill). If a defender has low anticipation putting him as a limited defender won't cure this as he will still have to position himself in relation to his opponents, the ball and the goal just as much as a ball playing defender would. I'd say anticipation is very important if you wan't your player to intercept passes and runs by the opponent. Players with low anticipation might let more throughballs through the defense or let more players slip from behind if they didn't see the pass coming. Players with low positioning will not always be goal side enough from attackers letting them through on goal or they might be too far goal side giving the attacker too much space. They will also have more trouble making a cohesive back line with the other defenders without giving the opponent any through ball opportunities or leaving attackers in too much space. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 thanks, just need to try to compute all that then i will hopefully be able to better respond..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
footballmanager84 Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 In my opinion you need both. Especially in defenders. The defender with the higher anticipation can be your cover and higher aggression and determination your stopper. I don't think you can get away with having a low number for positioning or anticipation. The way I see it, a defender with high anticipation and low positioning will anticipate what will happen next ( pass, shoot, through ball, dribble etc. ) but wouldn't necessarily know where to position himself to stop the situation. The opposite is also a problem. It's no good having a defender that knows exactly where to position himself in any situation, if he can not anticipate what the next move will be. By the time he'll see what's going on, it might be too late. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim morrow Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 In my opinion you need both. Especially in defenders. The defender with the higher anticipation can be your cover and higher aggression and determination your stopper. I don't think you can get away with having a low number for positioning or anticipation. But think about people playing in lower division, it's really hard to have a DC with positioning AND anticipation, you need to make a choice so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
footballmanager84 Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 But think about people playing in lower division, it's really hard to have a DC with positioning AND anticipation, you need to make a choice so. In any league anticipation and positioning is important and I'm sure you can find defenders with good enough attributes for their league. Obviously you won't find a 18 anticipation and positioning defender in the BSP, but it doesn't stop you from looking for defenders with good attributes in positioning and anticipation relative to the league you're in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim morrow Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I can consider BSP to a pro league compare to lower league in another country:) I talk about very low league with player with no wage or 50£/ month. I'm playing in 3rd division in N. Ireland and my Limited DC cover man get 6 in anticipation and he is one of the best DC of the league. In the other hand, he get 11 in Positioning, 11 in pace and 14 in acceleration. So You can understand that he compensate his lack of anticipation with his initial position on the field and his speed compare to opponent striker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
footballmanager84 Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I can consider BSP to a pro league compare to lower league in another country:) I talk about very low league with player with no wage or 50£/ month.I'm playing in 3rd division in N. Ireland and my Limited DC cover man get 6 in anticipation and he is one of the best DC of the league. In the other hand, he get 11 in Positioning, 11 in pace and 14 in acceleration. So You can understand that he compensate his lack of anticipation with his initial position on the field and his speed compare to opponent striker. Players with high physical attributes often do very well in the lower leagues. Didn't realise you were that far down! I guess if all your players show up for a game, that's already a plus! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsupian Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 For lower leagues just scale it down. When I play my FC Utrecht save I look for defenders with at least 12 for anticipation and positioning (my best defender actually has 11 anticipation but he performs really well). When I'm managing the African Warriors I'm more than happy with 8 anticipation or positioning and might go as low as 6 if I feel the player can do a decent job regardless. If I play my Tottenham save however I want at least 14 anticipation and if it's lower that player better make up for it in other areas of his play. The thing you have to take into account for lower leagues is that the attackers will also have less anticipation and off the ball and the midfielders will be less creative and less accurate with the pass so it is not the end of the world if your defenders aren't perfect either. This comes up quite regularly on the forums. People tend to think you need good players to play a certain way or some attributes need to be good no matter the league you play in. When I manage my African Warriors team (second devision in South Africa). I'm more than happy to play fluid and with high creative freedom and I regularly use a trequartista (I have played someone as trequartista who had 8 creativity). I'm the first to admit we didn't play exactly like barca did but we tried and in some games we went down bravely against tougher opponents but in most games we played the better football and while we were predicted to end 9th of the 9 we are now comfortable second with a good view on the 1st place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 thanks all for your thoughts. i understand now why both are important. however i also need to look at decisions, pace, acceleration (for when they get it wrong or just get skinned and have to track back) and options are limited. would 14 positioning and antic be ok for the english premier league? and where does decisions fit into this if anticipation and positioning are both important? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim morrow Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 As you know all attributes are linked to another, so it's often hard to explain the ME in a few words. The same thing when you try to explain that each player defend (even the striker) when you loose the ball and each player attack(even the defenders) when you have the ball. So Decision is the word to translate intelligence of the player. If you read scout report, you will discover that for all players with low decision, scout told you that he got a lack of intelligence on the pitch. So you can easy understand that for all things where the player need to make a choice, decision attribute will be involve into. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 thanks for that. i'm gonna stick with my makeshift kids defence for a couple more friendlies and watch where we're slipping up then decide who to bring in on my budget.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsupian Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Decision fits in everywhere where there is a choice to make. If there are two or more options to choose from decision will help him see which one is objectively the best. Other attributes like workrate, teamwork, flair, agression and bravery will also influence his decision making. I think 14 anticipation and positioning is quite good for prem league. I just took a peak at some premiership defenders and 15 seems about average so if he doesn't have any major weaknesses in other areas 14 should be fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 hmmm. if anticipation is reading what's about to unfold and positioning is finding the ideal position between the attacker and the goal (at least that's how i see it) where do decisions fit in here? simply whether to make a tackle or wait? for my cover i insist on good tackling because as the last line he can't afford to get that wrong but i'm still unclear as to the kind of decisions a)my cover and b)my fullbacks will need to make. i amazingly just found a DC with decisions 18 but low anticipation and low consistency. must admit consistency only usually bothers me with attackers because i understand that but i guess i also dont want defenders having an off day Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coentrao Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 It's pretty much that i believe, a player with high decisions will more often than not time his tackles better, make the right pass,etc It's important for all the players but i like my midfielders specially to have good decisions since they will spend a lot of time with the ball for instance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 it's a tricky one. as a cover DC there cant be toooo many decisions to make: tackle or tackle. i'm tempted to give a little on decisions so that the player is better positioned as the last man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim morrow Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 The common sense in FM is that decision is more and more important following line of your team for less the GK to most important striker. But can be interesting to have high decision fullback too to ask them to support or attack on the flank. As you know I think, decision is linked to mentality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 Interesting. so decisions are less important for defenders? to be honest i play v.rigid and dont want my FBs or DCs to venture forward, so i guess i dont need to prioritise decision-making for the defenders? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim morrow Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 If you used Tactical wizzard to create your tactic, take a look at the mentality for each player. As decision is linked to it, you can see what you need. The rule is to avoid to play your player more than his capacities (exception can be possible) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 If you used Tactical wizzard to create your tactic, take a look at the mentality for each player. As decision is linked to it, you can see what you need. The rule is to avoid to play your player more than his capacities (exception can be possible) I do tend to use the tactics creator then tweak some stuff JUST about forward players. i'm playing a standard starting strategy most of the time but attacking sometimes and have creative freedom set to "more expressive". as i'm also playing very rigid my defenders have pretty much low mentality and low creative freedom... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 hmm what's been written here has really made me think. i always used to buy daniel carrico as a stopper because of his physical stats, aggression, other mental attributes but do i really need his 14 decisions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsupian Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Decision comes into play every time a player has to choose between two or more options. The decision attribute will help the player see which option is objectively better. Other attributes like workrate, teamwork, bravery, agression and flair will also impact the players decision making (for example someone with low workrate and high decision making will see that closing the player down or making a forward run is the best option but he can't be arsed do to his low workrate). Your tactical instructions also influence the decisions the player makes. Decisions a defender would make are things like closing down or staying in position, intercepting the pass or covering the player and whether to get out of position to mark a player or mark the space instead. Decision is not the only thing influencing the decision he makes (if you tell your defenders to not close down they won't start doing it when they have bad decision making) but it does help. The reason more advanced players usually get more use out of it is because they usually have more options (more available players to pass to, runs to make or choosing in what corner of the goal to shoot and how much power vs precision to put into the shot). Also if you give players less creative freedom you limit their options to choose from as you heavily favor one behavior over other due to your instructions so decision is less important for your players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 Decision comes into play every time a player has to choose between two or more options. The decision attribute will help the player see which option is objectively better. Other attributes like workrate, teamwork, bravery, agression and flair will also impact the players decision making (for example someone with low workrate and high decision making will see that closing the player down or making a forward run is the best option but he can't be arsed do to his low workrate). Your tactical instructions also influence the decisions the player makes. Decisions a defender would make are things like closing down or staying in position, intercepting the pass or covering the player and whether to get out of position to mark a player or mark the space instead. Decision is not the only thing influencing the decision he makes (if you tell your defenders to not close down they won't start doing it when they have bad decision making) but it does help.The reason more advanced players usually get more use out of it is because they usually have more options (more available players to pass to, runs to make or choosing in what corner of the goal to shoot and how much power vs precision to put into the shot). Also if you give players less creative freedom you limit their options to choose from as you heavily favor one behavior over other due to your instructions so decision is less important for your players. thanks, that helps crarify decisions for me. i've given my players quite a lot of CF because upfront i want them to unlock defences and at the back i want them to use good decisions, like you said, on closing down/marking etc. i'm a complete numbskull when it comes to defending so i'd rather have intelligent defenders and tell them to do whatever they think best:)) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
footballmanager84 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Neil, if you're playing very rigid, I assume it's because you want them to stick to their position and stick to tactical instructions. I would suggest that you look for defenders with a decent teamwork attribute too. Teamwork dictates how well they follow tactical instructions. Marsupian, following what you said about decisions, I'm now a bit unsure of something. In a defender it's positioning that will cause him to take up the correct position when a striker is rushing towards him with the ball. Anticipation will tell him what the striker will do next and decisions will then tell him whether to tackle, close down or back off. Would you agree? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim morrow Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 yes, to resume positioning and anticipation are to gather informations about a situation. And decision is to act according to those informations. Like Marsupian said also, the best it's to avoid signing players with very low decision, or with teamwork and Work rate below 10. You will get a better team if you follow this advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Train Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 I'm toying with very rigid AND balanced. i quite like the mentality settings behind balanced though i DO want my defenders to just defend which makes me think very rigid is the way forward. i'm going to watch both ingame but am not sure exactly what i'll be looking for. yes, i will certainly look for teamwork when building my defence. and decisions for my cover and fullbacks. the stopper is easy, he'll be so far ahead of the defensive line that few attributes matter imho other than aggression and tackling. he'll get stuck in whatever and won't need to think too much:) please correct me if i'm wrong........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
footballmanager84 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I'm toying with very rigid AND balanced. i quite like the mentality settings behind balanced though i DO want my defenders to just defend which makes me think very rigid is the way forward. i'm going to watch both ingame but am not sure exactly what i'll be looking for.yes, i will certainly look for teamwork when building my defence. and decisions for my cover and fullbacks. the stopper is easy, he'll be so far ahead of the defensive line that few attributes matter imho other than aggression and tackling. he'll get stuck in whatever and won't need to think too much:) please correct me if i'm wrong........ In a stopper anticipation might not be as vital as for a cover defender, but don't underestimate "decisions" as some of us have mentioned already. He must still decide WHEN to tackle and close down. Otherwise you're going to give away a lot of fouls in dangerous areas, especially since he's aggressive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 In my opinion, decision is one of the most important attributes in a player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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