Abnormal amount of cards every other game despite not having "Get stuck in" included

@michael sant

Everyone is complaining, please do what is necessary. Thank you.

We've do widespread analysis across the entire game for the frequency of fouls, bookings and dismissals and these are well within what is considered a normal range compared to real life. 

Feel free to upload PKMs of specific matches/saves where you feel there are examples where you've high examples. There's a lot to take into account with the ME, such as player attributes (aggression, tackling, decisions etc) as well as the different levels of harshness by referees etc. 

But based on the current evidence we have, the wide-ranging tests we've conducted and various data we use internally, we do not believe the rate is high. It's current averaging around 3.3 yellows per match and 0.12 red cards in game. 

No one will complain if it is average 3.3 yellows per match. Just believe whatever number you get.

There are so much buggy behavior in this match engine which has ruined the game.

The number of points per match may seem normal, but usually our players eat cards. These players become our defensive players. I don't think you did the analysis right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

just gone from 11 yellows in 16 to 22 in the last 6 

I think we should report this research team to a higher team. the game is not playable that way but they don't fix it.

On 07/12/2022 at 13:54, Neil Brock said:

We've do widespread analysis across the entire game for the frequency of fouls, bookings and dismissals and these are well within what is considered a normal range compared to real life. 

Feel free to upload PKMs of specific matches/saves where you feel there are examples where you've high examples. There's a lot to take into account with the ME, such as player attributes (aggression, tackling, decisions etc) as well as the different levels of harshness by referees etc. 

But based on the current evidence we have, the wide-ranging tests we've conducted and various data we use internally, we do not believe the rate is high. It's current averaging around 3.3 yellows per match and 0.12 red cards in game. 

I've no issue with the amount its the distribution with the AI seemingly able to get away with a lot more whereas many of my cards are for 1st fouls. The below example shows 0 for United, and 3 of mine are after Ive gone 2 up and wound down my pressing etc as soon as I got the 3rd in the 61st minute.

My tactic is in a previous message and feel it isnt aggressive when defending and winning balls. Curious what the AI is able to do with pressing etc that means 0 cards. 

Me (3 cards from first offence- 2 of which are from subs who have just come on):

United:

 

If you also watch the game the AI is pressing / sliding in all game too. Realise the match engine cant differentiate between human and AI but the amount of times I get this it does feel Im playing by different rules.

Tottenham v Man UFC.pkm

On 07/12/2022 at 13:54, Neil Brock said:

We've do widespread analysis across the entire game for the frequency of fouls, bookings and dismissals and these are well within what is considered a normal range compared to real life. 

Feel free to upload PKMs of specific matches/saves where you feel there are examples where you've high examples. There's a lot to take into account with the ME, such as player attributes (aggression, tackling, decisions etc) as well as the different levels of harshness by referees etc. 

But based on the current evidence we have, the wide-ranging tests we've conducted and various data we use internally, we do not believe the rate is high. It's current averaging around 3.3 yellows per match and 0.12 red cards in game. 

This is why you guys need to look at individual games rather than widespread analysis, as sure you have non-player matches getting you within the parameters you need but that is not reflected in games we play.

Half time, 4 fouls, 4 bookings- one of these after 31 seconds. At least my opponent has been punished too.

Udogie has dives into tackles so I expect it with him but none of the others has any traits like that.

My team instructions, hardly over the top tackling etc or PIs like tight marking / hard tackling. No OIs either.

This is clearly not right or realistic. It truly ruins matches.

If you search back to FM22 bugs under my name you'll see this was flagged last year too by myself with plenty of examples.

5 hours ago, dunk105 said:

I've no issue with the amount its the distribution with the AI seemingly able to get away with a lot more whereas many of my cards are for 1st fouls. The below example shows 0 for United, and 3 of mine are after Ive gone 2 up and wound down my pressing etc as soon as I got the 3rd in the 61st minute.

If you also watch the game the AI is pressing / sliding in all game too. Realise the match engine cant differentiate between human and AI but the amount of times I get this it does feel Im playing by different rules.

Tottenham v Man UFC.pkm

Just to be EXTREMELY clear, the match engine does not distinguish between AI manager and user manager - any bookings are given based on the type of foul, not who their manager is. 

Again have to be clear on this that we need more examples. There are instances where certain referees are 'harsher' so are more likely to book players, or more prone to mistakes in match which means players are booked in situations where they perhaps shouldn't be, just like real life. I note some of your examples come from European games, where in some instances referees will be harsher than say in the PL. 

Our figures as said indicate there is not a wider problem here and in our internal tests, both with individual match examples and when looking at a larger data pool. There are plenty of examples IRL of players being booked for a first foul as well but again more than happy to look at specific examples where you feel a first foul booking is unduly harsh. 

If you do encounter a match where you feel the yellow/red card was given harshly, please follow the instructions below:

1. Go to C:\Users\[Username]\Documents\Sports Interactive\Football Manager 2023\matches\automatic

2. Change the REC file's name to something we can identify.

3. Upload the REC file to OwnCloud (you must do this straight after the match, because the REC file will get replaced when you play another match in FM23)

4. Upload the save game just before the match to OwnCloud. We recommend you save the game before the start of every matches, because we need the tactics/formation/lineup to be exactly the same as the REC file.

5. Reply here explaining the issue and include the name of the REC File and the save game so we can investigate the match for you.

 

Thank you.

Card fiesta

Liverpool v Southampton.pkm

On 13/12/2022 at 16:00, Neil Brock said:

Just to be EXTREMELY clear, the match engine does not distinguish between AI manager and user manager - any bookings are given based on the type of foul, not who their manager is. 

Again have to be clear on this that we need more examples. There are instances where certain referees are 'harsher' so are more likely to book players, or more prone to mistakes in match which means players are booked in situations where they perhaps shouldn't be, just like real life. I note some of your examples come from European games, where in some instances referees will be harsher than say in the PL. 

Our figures as said indicate there is not a wider problem here and in our internal tests, both with individual match examples and when looking at a larger data pool. There are plenty of examples IRL of players being booked for a first foul as well but again more than happy to look at specific examples where you feel a first foul booking is unduly harsh. 

Yes I get that as believe I've mentioned I understand that the ME doesn't see AI vs Player, but it feels as if the balancing on cards per game is skewing what we see in actual games- this is what I feel you guys are ignoring. 

Examples IRL do not match what we are seeing when examples I show suggest that despite me playing in a style that isn't overly aggressive that the majority of my cards are from single offences when you ignore the opponent fouling away all game. Where is the benefit to the player for a more pragmatic approach?

Its been suggested it a tactical issue and I've supplied my tactic there has been no feedback why its the tactic as claimed.

More examples: 

Every yellow of mine apart from one is from the first foul:

8 vs 18 fouls, again only fouls accumulate 2 cards for me but it takes 9 for my opponent.

What makes me think that this is a balancing issue with your need to make numbers correct across the board is that after I've hit yellow cards I can go full press, hard tackling without penalty and no fear of second yellows as I know the game is going to keep it within your arbitrary preset limits rather than award cards based on what is seen on the field. With this in mind no wonder the best tactics have "get stuck in" as standard as its clear there is no risk in doing so.

 

Tottenham v Brentford.pkm Tottenham v Nottm Forest.pkm

23 minutes ago, dunk105 said:

Yes I get that as believe I've mentioned I understand that the ME doesn't see AI vs Player, but it feels as if the balancing on cards per game is skewing what we see in actual games- this is what I feel you guys are ignoring. 

Examples IRL do not match what we are seeing when examples I show suggest that despite me playing in a style that isn't overly aggressive that the majority of my cards are from single offences when you ignore the opponent fouling away all game. Where is the benefit to the player for a more pragmatic approach?

Its been suggested it a tactical issue and I've supplied my tactic there has been no feedback why its the tactic as claimed.

More examples: 

Every yellow of mine apart from one is from the first foul:

8 vs 18 fouls, again only fouls accumulate 2 cards for me but it takes 9 for my opponent.

What makes me think that this is a balancing issue with your need to make numbers correct across the board is that after I've hit yellow cards I can go full press, hard tackling without penalty and no fear of second yellows as I know the game is going to keep it within your arbitrary preset limits rather than award cards based on what is seen on the field. With this in mind no wonder the best tactics have "get stuck in" as standard as its clear there is no risk in doing so.

 

Tottenham v Brentford.pkm Tottenham v Nottm Forest.pkm

Doesn't work like that. Game doesn't recognise how many cards a team has or doesn't have then has to 'hit' a certain number. We analyse what the ME produces based on the way it's been balanced across the board, not the other way round. 

Get Stuck In works in tandem with other instructions. So a low pressing 'get stuck in' side will likely have less cards than a high press team without it. It's all about overall instructions, game situation and player make-ups (so attributes etc). 

Appreciate the pkms and the team will take a look  

Genoa v Milan_Cards.pkm

Milan v AS Roma_Cards.pkm

Milan v AS Roma_Cards.pkm

Milan v Lazio_Cards.pkm

Edited December 22, 2022 by Heywood JaBlowme

On 21/12/2022 at 03:13, Neil Brock said:

Doesn't work like that. Game doesn't recognise how many cards a team has or doesn't have then has to 'hit' a certain number. We analyse what the ME produces based on the way it's been balanced across the board, not the other way round. 

Get Stuck In works in tandem with other instructions. So a low pressing 'get stuck in' side will likely have less cards than a high press team without it. It's all about overall instructions, game situation and player make-ups (so attributes etc). 

Appreciate the pkms and the team will take a look  

If you think high pressing means more cards, I have to say you guys know nothing about football.

Look at the Premier League team stats.

Who gets the least cards? Man City and Liverpool!

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_yel_card?se=489

Inter v Milan_TooManyCards.pkm

Yeah perfectly normal- Yes its a European game so harsher refs so why is it just me and not my opponent who has fouled more? Only half time too and 5 yellows from 8 fouls!

Staggering that this is seemingly being ignored or excused.

The fact that this thread exists and the fact that the Devs are asking us to post examples means they don't think it's a problem, which is the real problem. This is BS.

 

Milan v Tottenham_RED CARDS.pkm

Edited January 7, 2023 by Heywood JaBlowme

Both teams are managed by AI.

I do feel the match engine was made in favour of Liverpool or its tactics while you said "a low pressing 'get stuck in' side will likely have less cards than a high press team".

Liverpool v Everton.pkm

Napoli v Milan_Garbage.pkm

An aside to this which for me shows how broken this is- I decided I may as well play with hard tackling on and full press, and then manage my players fitness to the nth degree.

Result is I foul far more, but get the same amount of cards (if not fewer, and definitely fewer cards per number of fouls)  with no reds so far and dominate difficult games more than I did before. It just seems so obvious that the game is balancing a realistic number of cards rather than reflect what is happening on the pitch and there's clearly more reward than risk in going super aggressive. I don't even see any need to take players with yellows off hard tackling and pressing as a full season on this and I never worry that they will get a second yellow.

Edited January 29, 2023 by dunk105

Is there any update from the Dev team og SI on this ongoing issue? Last year i got 157 yellow cards and 5 red cards in 38 matches in Serie A. 

After almost every match, I find that in the media message I can read that the referee judged against me or was very poorly in that match.

It simply cannot be a coincidence over an entire season that the referee in approx every 2-3 matches judge against you and have a bad grade exactly the match they have to judge you, and before the match they have a grade of 7.0 or higher, but in your matches are 5.0 or lower.

Still absolutely makes no sense.

6-2 6 fouls me (2 yellows) them 13 fouls (zero yellows).

Look at my players to see how Im not playing an intensive game:

 

And 

 

The opposition:

Another absolute joke of a game. Any chance you guys could make the "Persistent foul but don't get a yellow card" button available to players too?

On a more serious note this is horrible because it means my players are picking up many injuries thanks to this.

On a more serious note this is horrible because it means my players are picking up many injuries thanks to this. This is 4 months into the season!