Defending: broken or tactical issue?

I would like to make the poll in relation to this question but are unsure how to do it, so I skip it. If somebody can do it for me, I would be pleased.

Anyway, how many of you believe that defending in this game is broken, and how many believe that poor defending is due to tactics?

I am much in doubt on this issue. I m especially very skeptical of how players in advanced positions are defending - or not defending to be more precise. For most of the time they do nothing in terms of defensive work, regardless what kind of instructions I give them or their ability. At the same time I have yet benefited to see several players at the same time close down opponents players. It is always one player on my team who close down opponents player with the ball. IRL you see often muliply closing down, especially for the team who practice high closing.

I have managed to get 2 players to pressure 1, but only on the wings, full back head on and the dm from the side, Think it had some to do with insturctions and some to do with formation. Had 2 dm's which usually meant that one of them had no player to mark, and they both had close down whole pitch and roam from position, which I believe enabled the DM do run from his position and put extra pressure on the man with the ball. So, I guess my point is that it is possible, although rare and hard to achive.

To answer you question, I have never noticed a problem with defence, espcially if you play an anchor man. Then you are usually rock solid at the back. Well, that is my expiriance at least, so my vote goes to tactical issue.

Defending works really well on the game from my own saved games. The key to defending in general is to adapt it constantly. You can't expect to defend successfully for every single game of the season without a downside. You should adapt it based on what type of formation and players you play against. For example it's no good defending deep and applying no pressure from the DC's is the opposition are using a targetman. You'll just play into his hands. And against a pacey striker it's not always a good idea to press high up as your player could get skinned.

You only have to look at the SI Sports Centre Analysis I did to see that attackers can defend and contribute to defensive duties.

Defending works really well on the game from my own saved games. The key to defending in general is to adapt it constantly. You can't expect to defend successfully for every single game of the season without a downside. You should adapt it based on what type of formation and players you play against. For example it's no good defending deep and applying no pressure from the DC's is the opposition are using a targetman. You'll just play into his hands. And against a pacey striker it's not always a good idea to press high up as your player could get skinned.

You only have to look at the SI Sports Centre Analysis I did to see that attackers can defend and contribute to defensive duties.

I have no problems with the results Cleon, or by keeping clean sheets. My defense is a bulletproof, especially if I play 4-5-1. But based on the purely visual by following the match, I see many things that are not correct - either for me or the AI. I can successfully exploit the poor defense with AI, because AI can not defend themselves. This applies especially with pass to a quick striker. In the name of realism I do not use quick strikers anymore, because I know AI can not defend against them. At the same time I dont see multiply closing - ever.

I have no problems with the results Cleon, or by keeping clean sheets. My defense is a bulletproof, especially if I play 4-5-1. But based on the purely visual by following the match, I see many things that are not correct - either for me or the AI. I can successfully exploit the poor defense with AI, because AI can not defend themselves. This applies especially with pass to a quick striker. In the name of realism I do not use quick strikers anymore, because I know AI can not defend against them. At the same time I dont see multiply closing - ever.

You said advanced players don't defend, they can as I've shown in threads recently. You can get groups to close down a particular player as well and its very visible if you watch games in full (for me it is and other peoples games I've watched)

You said advanced players don't defend, they can as I've shown in threads recently. You can get groups to close down a particular player as well and its very visible if you watch games in full (for me it is and other peoples games I've watched)

I didnt read that particular post from you. So what are you suggesting in form of AMR/AML tracking back or defending in apropriate way as we see it IRL? How can I get multiply closing?

Here you go.

The ball was passed behind Wellington Silva to David Luiz. Silva turned and chased him down the line before sneaking in to make the interception. Clear example of tracking back. The midfield has shuffled over as well to further close down passing options. The only defensive problem here is 6 out of position, but that's a player error rather than a tactical one. There's no need for 9 to track back on the opposite side and he's ready for any counter attack.

Here you go.

The ball was passed behind Wellington Silva to David Luiz. Silva turned and chased him down the line before sneaking in to make the interception. Clear example of tracking back. The midfield has shuffled over as well to further close down passing options. The only defensive problem here is 6 out of position, but that's a player error rather than a tactical one. There's no need for 9 to track back on the opposite side and he's ready for any counter attack.

Can you post your player and team instructions for that particular match?

Lazy I know but I can't be bothered to go through all my games but here are just a few screenshots. Not all successful but to show they do track back and help defend. I should also point out that none of these were from defending set pieces. All from open play tracking back.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/jacare.png/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/adryan.png/

Ones a striker ones a AMC. Both tackling in their own half.

Random tackling stats from a game showing 2 of my front 3 attempting a few tackles

I can post a whole lot more if needed, but I don't have time this second.

Can you post your player and team instructions for that particular match?

The screenie is a little old so I can't remember what shouts I would of been using but it was in the last minute of a tight clash with Chelsea and I'm 2-1 up so probably Defensive strategy (possibly even Contain), play narrow, play deep. Definitely NOT hassle opponents or hard tackling at that stage. My central players (CB,CB,DM,MC,MC) would of been on tight man-marking whilst the others would be loose zonal.

This would of been my roles & duties (I make manual tweaks occasionally but it's very very likely to be entirely TC defaults):

FBs - Full-backs (auto)

CBs - Central Def (Def)

DM - Def.Mid (Def)

MCs - Adv.PM (Sup)

AMR/L - Inside Forward (Att)

FC - Complete Forward (Att)

Bare in mind that I want my wide players high up the pitch most of the time I've never specifically wanted them to do a particular defensive role other than cut off the passing lines, as Wellington Silva has done in the screenie. But I've never had an issue with good players tracking back - this is the key point, it's often the qualities of the player that dictate how much defensive work they will do (work rate, determination, positioning, teamwork, stamina, probably concentration & decisions). I couldn't get this formation (or a 4231) to work as a Championship or low Prem side (thats not to say it isn't possible of course).

Tactically I think the marking scheme probably helps. The key to defending the flank here is the 3,7,11 triangle that has formed around the opposition FB (Luiz) and cut off most of his options. I would not of expected my AML to tightly track the run of Luiz and have only rarely seen this in real life. If I wanted a defensive player I would of played someone at ML (at the expense of attacking potency). I frequently drop the AMR/L in MR/L (4141) to see out a game and am a little surprised I didn't here, its likely I was still getting some attacking change out of Chelsea and didn't want to rule out the chance of catching them out as they pushed forward.

Cleon has been even more successful at getting her players to track back and getting her advanced players to work hard.

for me defensive issues are really obvious, I'm surprised jascko is the only one questioning things here. AM strata players will track back here and there, but imo it is far from how they should defend. here's a link from GD thread (worth reading) where I posted screanshots: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/292708-defending-just-awful...-could-it-be-a-bug. I'm not saying that a human manager won't be able to find a way for AM players to track back, if anything specific man marking can be used. but i'm 99% sure that AI AM won't track back regulary and generally their defensive behaviour is really bad, no metter how defensive their strategy. I can post dozens of screanshots from one game to prove it. I know many of you will hate me for this, but defensive part of ME, not just AMs not tracking back, isn't quite there yet.

just for a record Espanyol is AI team.

here's a picture where Espanyol all 3 AM players don't track back, which means I have 3-man advantage in attack!! (not a counter): http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/810/46891544.jpg/

same stuff, this time it leads to another problem which was caused by wingers not tracking back. Espanyol left full-back was left alone between two Real forwards. easy through ball for Diarra, who's clean through on goal: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/192/24768080.jpg/

same thing, this time happening to me. looks like my AML and AMC are covering their players, but they're making no forward runs: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/27485649.jpg/

There's always been an issue with AM strata players not tracking or pressing aggressively enough. Two workarounds:

1: Use specific man-marking on the player you want them to track.

2: Play a defensive mentality system with zonal marking.

If you want them to remain an attacking threat and not contribute to defence, then play a more attacking mentality and don't specific man-mark. Ideally, there would be a very specific method of choosing between press, press/track, track and no defensive duties. However, until there is, then the above two workarounds are the most viable methods of getting AM strata players to contribute to defensive play.

Im not too sure about your point #2. maybe it does encourage a bit more tracking back but nothing significant.

the problem is with AI, who're not 'awere' of this.

it leads to all kind of exploits.

In my most recent game as Sporting Gijon in Spain I succeeded in making all my players defend as a unit. The strikers and wingers were regularly winning the ball high up the pitch and causing mistakes. I was predicted 12th and finished 3rd behind Real and Barcelona with 82 points. I used a 451/433 and a 442. The key I found was just using the defensive roles for advanced positions. I cant remember all my instructions but my team played very fluid and attacking. the 442 had Defensive Wingers at MR and ML, a deep lying playmaker (support) and a Ball winning midfielder (defend). The strikers were a Defensive Forward (Support) and Poacher. The 451 as the same with the MR and ML moved up while the Poacher was shifted to be an anchorman. The 451 just trapped opponents in their half.

Here you go.

The ball was passed behind Wellington Silva to David Luiz. Silva turned and chased him down the line before sneaking in to make the interception. Clear example of tracking back. The midfield has shuffled over as well to further close down passing options. The only defensive problem here is 6 out of position, but that's a player error rather than a tactical one. There's no need for 9 to track back on the opposite side and he's ready for any counter attack.

this is not correct in my opinion and not how i would hope my team defends. for me i would want 12 pushed up cutting off any passing lane to 8 and closing him down if he was in possession. 6 would then move into his spot. this is what angers me most when i watch my team defend. there are too many players floating around without taking up good positions or closing down the guys they should. my midfielders always collapse too far down and fail to pressure the opposition mids who pass the ball along the perimeter. no matter what defensive settings i use i cannot get them to to properly shift responsibilities on d. if you are playing zone you have to be able to pass people off to your help effectively and that just does not happen in the game. nor do we really see players being held up and someone else coming in to get the ball.

this is not correct in my opinion and not how i would hope my team defends. for me i would want 12 pushed up cutting off any passing lane to 8 and closing him down if he was in possession. 6 would then move into his spot. this is what angers me most when i watch my team defend. there are too many players floating around without taking up good positions or closing down the guys they should. my midfielders always collapse too far down and fail to pressure the opposition mids who pass the ball along the perimeter. no matter what defensive settings i use i cannot get them to to properly shift responsibilities on d. if you are playing zone you have to be able to pass people off to your help effectively and that just does not happen in the game. nor do we really see players being held up and someone else coming in to get the ball.

The overall goal of defence is, of course, to win the ball back, but, beyond that basic premise is the objective to deny space. Attack looks to create space whereas defence looks to deny space. This is fundamental to most team sports and is certainly a major aspect of FM. The 12 in the screenie is a DM who sits between the back 4 and the midfield (which in my case in just 2 central midfielders). As a ball-winner he might push forward as you suggest but this breaks my defensive system. I need him to sit and hold the hole infront of the CB's. 39 is operating in this area but he is no threat whatsoever to me (barring a possible aerial threat which is impossible to completely negate). If my 12 moves forward then 39 can drop into this hole which is the 2nd most dangerous area on the pitch and something I want to avoid.

To clarify my position I've doctored the screenshot to show my opinion of what's happening and why it's pretty much how I want it:

My defensive system is ruled by the blue box created by CBs and MCs with DM holding the roost in the centre. The job of my DM is two-fold: his first job is to deny space in front of the CBs, particularly on the counter, whereas his 2nd job is to sprint wide to help the FBs and negate space there. In the screenshot he is firmly performing his 1st job. I've moved 6 into the 'ideal' position for me to hold the bottom of the box and maintain my back 4 line. With 6 in the ideal position 12 has more options regarding his placement. As it is 6 is well out of position but it's ok because 12 provides some cover.

I've outlined 2 options. Option 1 (red) is that Luiz slides the ball beyond my DL to 12 who then crosses (I think 12 was heading towards goal but if he was heading towards the byline this option would work). The alternative to this is that Luiz dribbles to the line and crosses but he's likely to get pressure from the DL so the forwards pass would be better. But it wouldn't bother me too much if either got a cross away because I have a clear numerical advantage at the back plus I've got 4 CB-type defenders on who are all (at least) reasonable in the air. As the ball moves towards the byline the box of central players just retreats and dominates the space infront of the GK which is perfect in my book.

The 2nd option and the one that Luiz tries to execute is to pass to 18 and then 8 and see what happens there. This option is more threatening as 8 will collect the ball with potentially 6 options in front of him. This is both good and bad for Chelsea. It's good because advanced players are naturally more of a direct goal threat but it's bad because they all want to operate in my most heavily defended area. 8 would have to find a good pass quickly because he will be feeling pressure and a good pass is hard to find in a packed area.