Looking for general advice on how to improve my tactics

[bluehefner]

Hi everyone long post incoming,

So I’m in my fourth season with Man Utd and been quite successful, won 3 Leagues, 2 League Cups, 2 FA Cups, 1 UCL, 1 Super Cup and Community Shields so obviously I’m doing something right but that doesn’t stop me wanting to tweak and improve my tactics so that I’m even harder to beat and iron out some of the bad performances/losses that I get during every season, even during comfortable wins I find I can get quite frustrated and I’m just coming off the back of an away defeat to a decent Everton side and a home draw against Chelsea

Here are the tactics I currently have training, more attacking from left to right, with the furthest right being for when I play away to the big sides, which I just recently started to use and with some success.

     

I've listed some observations i've made myself below but i'm just looking for general ways i can improve, and obvious things i'm doing wrong.

Some of the main complaints I have, whether I’m winning or losing are

• Poor shot/conversion ratio
• Frequently failing to score in the first half (or only scoring through a penalty) then having to tell my players off then scoring in the second half
• Most attacks coming from wide positions, and lots of highlights just showing my wide players getting crosses blocked. I like playing with width but maybe this is a match engine issue and I need to focus through the middle?
• Lack of through balls and clear cut chances being created with short passes
• Letting teams have too many shots on goal or winning headers
• Opposition overlapping full backs getting too much space, I often tell my wingers to mark dangerous full backs but do the negatives of doing this outweigh the positives?
• More often than i'd like teams out possession me, despite me having all the highlights and shots.

Some thoughts about my main tactic

• I rarely go below balanced mentality, unless I’m defending a lead in a particularly tough fixture. I play attacking at home against the majority of teams and positive against the rest, balanced away from home against a top side like City/Liverpool
• I rarely play anything other than short passing and never play direct passing
• Sometimes I will play with more width in order to try and break teams down, would playing with short passing hurt this approach as less short passes are available? So should I crank up my passing directness the wider I go?
• I play high tempo most games, to me it makes sense to try and unsettle the opposition but I understand that doing this might cause he me to rush my attacks and chance, which situations should I not play this way?
• Obviously I increase or decrease my defensive line depending on the pace of the opposition strikers/my defenders, I also drop my pressing against pacey teams.
• I pretty much always play counter and counter press, i will switch to hold position if i'm comfortable with my lead and want to control the game and regroup if i'm against toughest opposition away from home, but rarely other than that.

Some thoughts on my roles, opinions and extra advice would be appreciated.

• DLP (Neves) & AP (Pogba) combo, I realise that traditionally these are quite static roles although it’s obviously worked, sometimes I feel like I’d create better chances or have better openings if one of the players made more forward runs, thoughts?
• I notice that although my AMC (Bruno) has high amount of assist contributions that I often don’t see much from him in games, like nicely crafted throughballs or chances, but he is on my corners, meaning he probably gets a good amount of assists from those. Possibly the reason is that having two playmakers below him means that he’s bypassed when my teams are creating chances, one possible remedy for this is putting Pogba as a Mezzala and switching Bruno to AP, solving the first two points.
• Another note on the AMC is that he usually looks quite far from my ST (Haaland, Complete Forward) so I sometimes flip between putting Bruno on attack duty to get him further up, but then he’s even less likely to create if he’s in the box more often, so the above solution may also fix this.
• Roles for my RW. I’m quite stacked on the wings so when I’m not playing an inside forward on either side I will put Mbappe as RW, and I’m wondering if support or attack is best for him, my logic was that he should be on support so that a) he’s closer to the DLP and b) I like wingers to start slightly deeper so they can collect the ball and run at players, rather than being in a position where they can’t do that too higher up, but then my question would be what the best role for my RB would be, as if he’s in an attacking role wouldn’t he get in Mbappes way? but if he’s supporting with no attacking role down that side then I’d be less penetrative on the right, which is why I end up sometimes putting Mbappe on attack.
• Whichever side I have the DLP on I put the covering BPD (Marquinhos) under him, so that they don’t get in each other’s way or are too close together, however I’ve noticed that recent heatmaps seem to show my defending BPD (De Ligt) as the deeper one, or rather Marquinhos is higher up, anyone have an explanation for this?

Opposition instructions are left to Mike Phelan

The problem i frequently have with his game is identifying if it's a tactics issue or a player issue, is it possible to lose simply because the game decides that your players will play badly or will it always come back to tactics?

Any advice on how i can tweak things to be more efficient in general and to be better when playing against tougher opposition would be appreciated.

Edited March 18, 2020 by bluehefner

[summatsupeer]

First and second tactics are the same image.

Why does every players have personalized icon?  I'd keep things consistent regardless of player so easier to tell if player attributes or tactic role/duty change has affected things.

A couple of things:

• You lack defensive skill in midfield.  Neves, Pogba and Bruno in any configuration are three creators.  When you lose the ball you have no Busquets/Mascherano/Fernandinho who can win/intercept the ball and cover for the more attack minded CMs.  When using AML+AMR rather than ML+MR, the central midfield needs to help the FBs cover those flanks but thats not the type of midfielders your using.  If you can dominate possession this covers for some of the lack of defensive ability (ie Peps Barcelona) but thats not the style your playing and both Bruno+Pogba like to shoot from distance so a possession style is likely to break down when they're in shooting positions.
• You don't vary the movement of players near each other.  In the 4231 the ST+AMC are the main off the ball runners with overlapping WBs and a static CM pair.  In the 433 your front 3 all are off ball runners plus the CM pair with the back 5 being a bit safer.  There's a lack of variety in the movement which can mean if that type of movement isn't good vs the opposition there's nothing else to trouble them except if a player uses his creative freedom to do something out of the planned patterns.

These two things could be reasons for the inconsistency. First is personnel related. Second is tactics being quite specific.

Tactics wise the 433 I think is easier to fix, its clearly setup to be more of a counter attacking style.  You don't need all those players on attack duty or with Get Forward instructions.  When your team triggers a proper counter attack the roles&duties are ignored so give them a bit more variety for when the counter isn't available.  If they're all trying to always run in behind, defences can just keep dropping deeper, its simple for them to defend.

The 4231 I like to think of as have 4 creative attackers, the CM pair are just the foundation to feed them the ball and break up counter attacks and get it back to the attackers, especially if the FBs are joining attacks.  If adding even more creators to the mix, there's likely something wrong with the front 4 and tactic becomes unbalanced.  If one of the CM's isn't holding then the FB on that side should really be covering. For example if using a BWM/CM-De then Neves would be a good DLP-Su (though both players in a CM pair in 4231 should be good physically to cover flanks + DM) allowing the FB more freedom, whilst if using Pogba he is much better physically so could be given more freedom to get forward (no hold position) but the FB is then given less to cover.  Personally I think having Bruno as a support duty or a playmaker role makes more sense to create more for Haaland and Mbappe.  This means its a more structured setup (forwards attack, midfield creates) as the ST is playing on the defences shoulder and at most moves laterally but doesn't drop to try and draw defence up/out for a deeper runner which creates more fluid movement.  Having your runners start high I think needs a faster style but doesn't have to be long ball, but also want to avoid camping in opponents since you have no space for the runners to run into and you lack the fluid movement patters.

[Experienced Defender]

Honestly, I would change a lot in both tactics if these were my tactics. But on the other hand, the fact that you are topping the table despite the flaws in your tactic(s) means that your tactics are nevertheless working for you and your team. Therefore, I would rather refrain from suggesting any changes (at least so long as these tactics are producing success). 

[bluehefner]

59 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

First and second tactics are the same image.

Why does every players have personalized icon?  I'd keep things consistent regardless of player so easier to tell if player attributes or tactic role/duty change has affected things.

A couple of things:

• You lack defensive skill in midfield.  Neves, Pogba and Bruno in any configuration are three creators.  When you lose the ball you have no Busquets/Mascherano/Fernandinho who can win/intercept the ball and cover for the more attack minded CMs.  When using AML+AMR rather than ML+MR, the central midfield needs to help the FBs cover those flanks but thats not the type of midfielders your using.  If you can dominate possession this covers for some of the lack of defensive ability (ie Peps Barcelona) but thats not the style your playing and both Bruno+Pogba like to shoot from distance so a possession style is likely to break down when they're in shooting positions.
• You don't vary the movement of players near each other.  In the 4231 the ST+AMC are the main off the ball runners with overlapping WBs and a static CM pair.  In the 433 your front 3 all are off ball runners plus the CM pair with the back 5 being a bit safer.  There's a lack of variety in the movement which can mean if that type of movement isn't good vs the opposition there's nothing else to trouble them except if a player uses his creative freedom to do something out of the planned patterns.

These two things could be reasons for the inconsistency. First is personnel related. Second is tactics being quite specific.

Tactics wise the 433 I think is easier to fix, its clearly setup to be more of a counter attacking style.  You don't need all those players on attack duty or with Get Forward instructions.  When your team triggers a proper counter attack the roles&duties are ignored so give them a bit more variety for when the counter isn't available.  If they're all trying to always run in behind, defences can just keep dropping deeper, its simple for them to defend.

The 4231 I like to think of as have 4 creative attackers, the CM pair are just the foundation to feed them the ball and break up counter attacks and get it back to the attackers, especially if the FBs are joining attacks.  If adding even more creators to the mix, there's likely something wrong with the front 4 and tactic becomes unbalanced.  If one of the CM's isn't holding then the FB on that side should really be covering. For example if using a BWM/CM-De then Neves would be a good DLP-Su (though both players in a CM pair in 4231 should be good physically to cover flanks + DM) allowing the FB more freedom, whilst if using Pogba he is much better physically so could be given more freedom to get forward (no hold position) but the FB is then given less to cover.  Personally I think having Bruno as a support duty or a playmaker role makes more sense to create more for Haaland and Mbappe.  This means its a more structured setup (forwards attack, midfield creates) as the ST is playing on the defences shoulder and at most moves laterally but doesn't drop to try and draw defence up/out for a deeper runner which creates more fluid movement.  Having your runners start high I think needs a faster style but doesn't have to be long ball, but also want to avoid camping in opponents since you have no space for the runners to run into and you lack the fluid movement patters.

Sorry i've changed it now, although there isn't too much different, just more attacking with higher line and pressing, maybe this in itself is a flaw.

I hear you on the defensive player, i honestly don't like using Neves in the defend duty as i feel like his ability is wasted there, although i do feel like he does ok as defensive cover he obviously lacks the skill to be 'good' at it and then he's too deep to then contribute where he's most effective. For this reason i have Florentino Luis,

who i chuck in for games where i feel i'll especially need more defensive cover, but maybe i'd benefit from him playing all the time, perhaps i've been a little greedy trying to get Pogba, Bruno, Neves and Luis in the same side. 

Do you think that changing Pogba to Mezzella would help, along with making Bruno my primary creator in the AP role? Neves in DLP would still be an issue but possibly i could get away with it more often in games against the weaker sides and give Luis more game time than he's currently getting.

50 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Honestly, I would change a lot in both tactics if these were my tactics. But on the other hand, the fact that you are topping the table despite the flaws in your tactic(s) means that your tactics are nevertheless working for you and your team. Therefore, I would rather refrain from suggesting any changes (at least so long as these tactics are producing success). 

I understand that you might have a different personal preference because there's no right way to play, it's more if you feel like there's anything obviously wrong that is holding me back. Like you say, i've been successful but i don't want it to be because my players have carried my lack of tactical ability, i also don't want to throw everything out and start again, but maybe small adjustments to roles or general advice would be good.

Edited March 18, 2020 by bluehefner

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, bluehefner said:

Sorry i've changed it now, although there isn't too much different, just more attacking with higher line and pressing, maybe this in itself is a flaw.

Depends how high that actually is on the pitch and if it results in pinning opponents in. Dont want to let then just pass it around at the back either.  Pressure  ut not pinning in.

Quote

I hear you on the defensive player, i honestly don't like using Neves in the defend duty as i feel like his ability is wasted there, although i do feel like he does ok as defensive cover he obviously lacks the skill to be 'good' at it and then he's too deep to then contribute where he's most effective. For this reason i have Florentino Luis,

who i chuck in for games where i feel i'll especially need more defensive cover, but maybe i'd benefit from him playing all the time, perhaps i've been a little greedy trying to get Pogba, Bruno, Neves and Luis in the same side. 

Damn hes good!  Well at least you got lots of good options!

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Do you think that changing Pogba to Mezzella would help, along with making Bruno my primary creator in the AP role? Neves in DLP would still be an issue but possibly i could get away with it more often in games against the weaker sides and give Luis more game time than he's currently getting.

I dont think it would change much, I think MEZ is overused partially due to the game saying so many players are best at that role.

Quote

I understand that you might have a different personal preference because there's no right way to play, it's more if you feel like there's anything obviously wrong that is holding me back. Like you say, i've been successful but i don't want it to be because my players have carried my lack of tactical ability, i also don't want to throw everything out and start again, but maybe small adjustments to roles or general advice would be good.

Just change one or two players and see if the change is generally positive.  Bruno from AM-At to TQ or AP-At.  He will move to collect more and try to create more.  Then look at options he has.  Does mbappe then need is duty increasing to make runs earlier and the rb behind him reigned in a bit?

Just one or two duty/role and instruction changes could make a big difference so just take it step by step. 

Edit: judge it by what you see and if the new positioning and actions aren't what you want undo the change.

I forgot that would mean theres a dlp, ap and bruno so obviously would change the CM balance but try to balance it with the wide players to.  Could use pogba as a bbm but who's outside of him? Do they stay outside? Is the fb overlapping or more restrained to cover?  If using him or neves as dlp-su then the fb can have more freedom but what's the wide player in front of him doing?

Edited March 18, 2020 by summatsupeer

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, bluehefner said:

I understand that you might have a different personal preference because there's no right way to play

Absolutely 

[Nikola75]

On 18/03/2020 at 18:21, bluehefner said:

• Opposition overlapping full backs getting too much space, I often tell my wingers to mark dangerous full backs but do the negatives of doing this outweigh the positives?

Hey. I am struggling with this one as well. Actually, most of the goals I concede, are coming from opposing backs running into the space. Usually, they are 2 to 1 to my back, with my winger staying up, or they are running into the space on the other side and scoring. I put some images with examples here:

https://community.sigames.com/topic/517561-full-season-tactical-analysis-tactics-goals/

Did you manage to find better solution since your post? I am also not too keen on setting my wingers on man-marking.