Tactical help needed

[Tomor29]

Hello everyone,

I would like to ask more experienced managers for help with tactic for my team. I want to play attacking, physically demanding style of football with high DL and high pressing. When there is an opportunity we should hit opponenents on fastly executed counter attacks into opened defences, this is a priority. But at the same time, when opponent is already in defence and there is no chance for counter, then we should be able to slow down the play, keep the ball and open the defence and create chances with our superior passing qualities. But I do not want to play slow passing game all the time, fast attacks and counters should be the priority. I would say that it is a style of play similar to Klopp´s style, isn´t it?

But how to incorporate these elements into my FM tactics? Some things seems to be obvious for me such as activating Counter-Press and Counter in transition, highest DL, LOE and pressing intensity etc., but how to correctly set up other elements, mainly mentality, tempo and passing directness (or even player roles) to succesfully recreate this style of football?

The formation should be 4-1-2-3 DM Wide with two very attacking wingbacks, that should give us width and inside forwards that should cut in and help with pressing.

Any advice will be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Mr_Demus]

Counter and high DL and high pressing does not really match. To counter you must lure your opponents forward, and by pressing them a lot high up the field you are no+t doing that

[Tomor29]

Right, I know this... I have probably wrongly used the word "counter" there. I want my players to execute fast attacks, go directly on the goal when there is a chance for it, when not and the opponent is prepared in defence then pass the ball and find openings via passing and creativity. High DL and extreme pressing is a must for me. Possible now?

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

Hello everyone,

I would like to ask more experienced managers for help with tactic for my team. I want to play attacking, physically demanding style of football with high DL and high pressing. When there is an opportunity we should hit opponenents on fastly executed counter attacks into opened defences, this is a priority. But at the same time, when opponent is already in defence and there is no chance for counter, then we should be able to slow down the play, keep the ball and open the defence and create chances with our superior passing qualities. But I do not want to play slow passing game all the time, fast attacks and counters should be the priority. I would say that it is a style of play similar to Klopp´s style, isn´t it?

But how to incorporate these elements into my FM tactics? Some things seems to be obvious for me such as activating Counter-Press and Counter in transition, highest DL, LOE and pressing intensity etc., but how to correctly set up other elements, mainly mentality, tempo and passing directness (or even player roles) to succesfully recreate this style of football?

The formation should be 4-1-2-3 DM Wide with two very attacking wingbacks, that should give us width and inside forwards that should cut in and help with pressing.

Any advice will be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

5 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

Right, I know this... I have probably wrongly used the word "counter" there. I want my players to execute fast attacks, go directly on the goal when there is a chance for it, when not and the opponent is prepared in defence then pass the ball and find openings via passing and creativity. High DL and extreme pressing is a must for me. Possible now?

Whatever style of football you want to play, the first thing you need to know is that the team mentality you select will automatically affect all other instructions, even if you do not touch them at all. Thus, for example, if you decide to play on the Attacking mentality, your players will tend by default to take more risks in attack, both in terms of passing and movement, they'll also play faster (tempo) and with more creative freedom overall. Similarly, they will be more aggressive when defending - DL, LOE and pressing urgency will automatically be higher than under the same setting under a lower mentality (e.g. higher DL/LOE under the Attacking mentality is not the same as higher DL/LOE under Positive, let alone Balanced or below).

I wanted to emphasize the importance of the mentality factor precisely because that's the area in which people usually make biggest mistakes when creating a tactic. 

For other and more specific suggestions, you'll need to post a screenshot of your current tactic. That will allow us to analyze it and tell you what tweaks/changes you should make if you want to implement your desired style of play without overkill. 

[Tomor29]

Hello @Experienced Defender,

many thanks for your reply and mainly that you would be helpful to assist me with my tactic and create the style of football I would like to see. This means really a lot for me, so thank you in advance! I´m playing the game for more than a decade, love youth development, building squad, transfers and many other parts but creating tactic has never been my strenght. I read a lot, hopefully know the basics and in the end can create tactic that helps me to dominate the league (but this could be also mainly because after a few years I usually have top players in my team in comparision to league rivals) but because my tactical knowledge is limited I cannot tweak my tactic and make it brilliant as many other players here and have never achieved significant success in European competitions and mainly replicate my desired style of football. And I would like to change it this year...

 

So firstly I should write about the style of football I want to play:

1) Attacking and entertaining football with many chances created and goals scored. Would rather see a 4:3 win than just 1:0.

2) We should be proactive instead of reacting on what our opponents do. We should put our opponents under heavy pressure and take time from them by pressing high, play mostly on opponent´s half.

3) We want to play fast. I am not a big fan of endless passing and tikitaka style of play. If there is a chance for fast attack we should use it, once there is no openings and opponents are on their positions then we could keep the ball and create chances by passing.

4) Want to play and behave as a team not just isolated players.

I want my players to be physically strong, hard working and fast, so pay attention to attributes such as stamina, natural fitness, work rate, determination, pace or acceleration, when building my squad, and also technically gifted.

Here is how my current tactic looks...

I was considering two formations - 4-1-4-1 DM Wide and 4-2-3-1 Wide for my team but in the end decided to choose the first one as the DM position should protect our central defensive duo as wingbacks should be very attacking.

GK - Sweeper Keeper (A or S duty) - my keeper should protect our high defensive line and also have ball playing skills, we should play out of the back.

DL/R - Wing Back (s) - left and right defenders should be mainly attacking players that should give our formation width and help our offense, cooperate with wingers that should cut in. Not sure what role and duty would suit best. Wing Back? On support? Attack? Or Complete Wing Back? Of course players should be physically very strong with great stamina and acceleration.

DCL/R - I gave one central defender ball playing role, the other standart central defender. Should be fast enough with good anticipation to cover the space behing high DL. Both are very good headers. When in possesion I want them to help us play out of the back.

DM - Deep Lying Playmaker (d) - I want this player to help our central defensive duo, to provide some kind of cover, especially when we lose the ball high on the pitch or opponent escapes our high pressure.

MCL - Mezzala (a) - offensive player that should help our attacks and also create some kind of overload on the left side? Good idea to give him PPM to switch ball to other flank to release attacking IF?

MCR - Box to Box Midfielder (s)

AML - Inverted Winger (s) - player to create overload on the left side with Mezzala and DL, cuts inside. I would like this player to also score some goals, so IW or rather IF?

AMR - Inside Forward (a) - used for fast player, expect this position to score plenty of goals. Should cooperate with DR.

SC - Pressing Forward (a) - decided to use this role, but what about other roles? Mainly F9 but also Complete Forward or Deep Lying Forward? Have maybe my best player on this position, so want to fully use him, also expect him to score many goals but at the same time offer our team more than just scoring goals.

I should also add that I have squad full of very solid technical players, especially in midfield, who can be very good playmakers or mezzalas and would like to take advantage of it.

 

As you can see I would have many, many questions regarding the best settings, team instructions, roles etc. and would really appreciate your help that would allow me to create the tactical style I want to see. I would add that I managed to win the Eredivisie in the first season with this tactic (some ocassional changes) and still unbeaten in the first half of the second season but failed miserable in Europe in both season.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Tomor29

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

Okay, let's first analyze the tactic step by step...

Roles and duties - nicely balanced (of course, provided you made sure you have the right type of players for all roles and the overall style of play). The only tweak you might want to consider is changing the PF on attack into DLF on either duty, because DLF's tendency to drop deeper in the build-up and act as a creative type of striker would better suit the nature and attacking movement of the IFat in AMR. Another striker role that would fit nicely here is F9 (again, make sure you have a suitable player).

Positive mentality - good starting point when it comes to mentality choice for attack-minded football styles 

In possession instructions - again, nothing strikingly wrong in and of itself. Passing into space should basically be used situationally, rather than as part of a starting tactic (especially given that your tactic is not primarily counter-attacking). Fairly narrow width is another instruction I prefer to use situationally. The same goes for wider width. Do you perhaps have some specific reasons as to why you want to go with the narrower width? 

An in-possession TI that may help you achieve your desired style of play is Be more expressive. You can (occasionally) use it in combination with Work ball into box, because these 2 TIs tend to somewhat offset (potentially negative) effects of each other (I assume your players are good enough to play that way). 

In transition instructions - counter and counter-press make sense, as both TIs suit the style of play you described (although you should be careful with the counter-press in tough matches against strong opposition). However, I would remove both the Take short kicks and Distribute to CBs. First, when you have a SK, especially on attack duty, you should give him freedom to decide which type and target of distribution would be optimal in a given situation, rather than limiting his options (again, I assume you didn't assign the keeper to SK on attack duty randomly, but with good reason). Second, giving the keeper freedom of distribution goes hand in hand with your preferred style. And last but not least, you already use the Play out of defence TI, which inherently encourages building attacks up from the back (as opposed to simply hoofing the ball forward).

Out of possession instructions - this part is potentially the most problematic one in your tactic. I am not going to tell you to "remove this" or "add that" instruction, just want to warn you of some potential risks:

1. while more (let alone extremely) urgent pressing under a high mentality is generally not advisable (see what I told you about the mentality factor in my first reply to your opening post), it may not be that much of a risk if you have the right type of players, who are capable of executing an aggressive pressing style in a relatively safe manner (here they need both physical and mental attributes);

2. a bigger problem however is your (potentially insufficient) vertical compactness. This is basically the distance between DL and LOE. The greater it is, the lower your vertical compactness is when defending. And vice versa, of course. Now, there are 3 basic levels of compactness: low, optimal and excessive, although these partly depend on the formation you use. With the combo of higher DL and much higher LOE, your level is relatively low, but not dramatically so. The well-balanced omni-strata formation you are using (4123 wide) mitigates the potential defensive risk to some degree. In a 4231 for example, this risk would be proportionally higher. 

An optimal level is generally achieved when the DL is just one notch higher than LOE (e.g. higher DL/standard LOE or standard DL/lower LOE). 

Having said all this, here are combinations of out-of-possession instructions I would suggest you should consider (taking your desired style of play into account):

The 1st combo:

- higher DL, standard LOE, prevent short GKD and either default or more urgent pressing

The 2nd combo:

- higher DL, standard LOE, default pressing and split block*

The 3rd combo:

- higher DL, higher LOE, prevent short GKD and defaut pressing

The 4th combo:

- higher DL, higher LOE, default pressing and split block* 

* in case you don't know what the term "split block" means, it's when you tell 3-5 most advanced players to close down more via their PIs, instead of increasing the pressing urgency for the whole team. By doing that, you actually make your team more aggressive overall when pressing, but without overly compromising your defensive shape. Therefore, the split block is a considerably safer option than the more or extremely urgent pressing as a team instruction. 

4 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

DL/R - Wing Back (s) - left and right defenders should be mainly attacking players that should give our formation width and help our offense, cooperate with wingers that should cut in. Not sure what role and duty would suit best. Wing Back? On support? Attack? Or Complete Wing Back?

Considering the rest of your setup, I would not go with either WB on attack or CWB (on any duty). Because both could be too risky defense-wise. WB on support is absolutely okay - sufficiently attack-minded to help in attack, and sufficiently defensive-minded to carry out defensive duties properly. You may consider IWB on support behind the mezzala as a possible option. 

 

4 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

MCL - Mezzala (a) - offensive player that should help our attacks and also create some kind of overload on the left side? Good idea to give him PPM to switch ball to other flank to release attacking IF?

Yes  

 

4 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

AML - Inverted Winger (s) - player to create overload on the left side with Mezzala and DL, cuts inside. I would like this player to also score some goals, so IW or rather IF?

Nothing wrong with an IF (on support duty) in AML, so you can give it a try. Or switch between IWsu and IFsu from time to time (a bit of experimenting won't hurt, as long as you keep the overall balance of your setup). 

 

4 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

SC - Pressing Forward (a) - decided to use this role, but what about other roles? Mainly F9 but also Complete Forward or Deep Lying Forward?

I already mentioned both F9 and DLF as good options, so - yes  As for the CF... a great role in general, but I think in this particular setup F9 or DLF would make more sense. I mean, you can try a CF (on support), just to see how it works in conjunction with your other roles, but that may overcomplicate your attacks given the CF's (a bit) "excessive" freedom both of movement and creativity.

Any further questions?

[Tomor29]

Many thanks for your feedback and your time, it really helped a lot. But I definitely have some other questions, many other questions actually. :-)

Please note that I do not want to create just a working, well-balanced tactic but a tactic that would mostly replicated my desired style of play. That´s important for me and I want to build a whole club around this tactical style.

 

Quote

Positive mentality - good starting point when it comes to mentality choice for attack-minded football styles 

I was considering positive or attacking mentality and went for the more conservative in the end. But wouldn´t attacking be better choice here? Wouldn´t it replicate the kind of fast attacking football better? We want to score goals, be active, dominate, consider attack as the best defence. I know that the selection of mentality would influence all other things, so this is the main question. What is the better choice here?

Quote

 

In possession instructions - again, nothing strikingly wrong in and of itself. Passing into space should basically be used situationally, rather than as part of a starting tactic (especially given that your tactic is not primarily counter-attacking). Fairly narrow width is another instruction I prefer to use situationally. The same goes for wider width. Do you perhaps have some specific reasons as to why you want to go with the narrower width? 

An in-possession TI that may help you achieve your desired style of play is Be more expressive. You can (occasionally) use it in combination with Work ball into box, because these 2 TIs tend to somewhat offset (potentially negative) effects of each other (I assume your players are good enough to play that way). 

 

I was inspired mainly by gegenpressing preset tactic when creating my tactic as I believe that my desired style is quite similar. This is one of the reasons for "Passing into space". Sure, we want more than just counter-attacking but on the other hand I want my players to use every opportunity, every chance when opponent lose a ball, we win it via pressing and his players may be out of positions, to launch a counter-attack, go fast and directly to the goal. Instead of slow build up and passing. I believed that this instruction could help with this. Also I have to add that I want to be my 3 offensive players (strikers and wingers) very fast.

The reasoning behind fairly narrow attacking width is very similar - was inspired by the preset. Personally I also believed that this instruction would help our players to be closer to each other, behave more like a team, one unit, and this could be helpful when pressing, no? Attacking width is one of the elements I surely do not understand properly. What are pros and cons of both settings? And what would be best for my style then?

Definitely agree with "Be more expressive" TI. As I said I have mostly very technical players, midfield consist almost exclusively of this kind of players, and want to play this way, so this should definitely help. This will give all players more creative freedom, right? Or any other effect?

Not sure what "Work ball into box" TI excatly does, when is it good idea to use it. I felt that it will limit long shots, shots from worse positions and players will patiently wait and work for better positions. I would definitely use it if I would like to play possession football with many passes, patient play, but isn´t it contraproductive for my style of play? My main problem, the thing I have the biggest problems with, that in my eyes I want two "contradictory" styles in my game - ultra fast, ultra attacking, hitting opponents on counterattacks when there is an opportunity for it, but at the same time slower/normal build up, possession, passing style of play using my creative midfield, when opponent´s players are on their positions or sit deep. And this makes it hard for me to understand what instructions should be used. It would be much easier for me to create some kind of tiki-taka, slow possession game, than this. This is the area I would need your assistance the most probably.

Quote

In transition instructions - counter and counter-press make sense, as both TIs suit the style of play you described (although you should be careful with the counter-press in tough matches against strong opposition). However, I would remove both the Take short kicks and Distribute to CBs. First, when you have a SK, especially on attack duty, you should give him freedom to decide which type and target of distribution would be optimal in a given situation, rather than limiting his options (again, I assume you didn't assign the keeper to SK on attack duty randomly, but with good reason). Second, giving the keeper freedom of distribution goes hand in hand with your preferred style. And last but not least, you already use the Play out of defence TI, which inherently encourages building attacks up from the back (as opposed to simply hoofing the ball forward).

In my eyes both TI "counter" and "counter-press" are a must for my desired style of play, aren´t they? Thanks for noting that CP may make us defensively vulnerable against strong opponents, it surely makes sense. But at the same time I wouldn´t like to change my style too much according to our opponent´s strenght, as mentioned earlier we want to be proactive, it should be our opponents who will react on our style, our play, not us. We should always present with "our" style of football, extreme pressing, attacking, fast, even against big boys, our club wants to entertain fans and I would accept a 2:3 defeat after a good performance better than a boring 0:0 draw. :-)

Regarding the GK distribution - once again, it is taken mainly from the gegenpressing preset and my reasoning for this was to build up from the back instead of bombing balls forward. My main reason for SK was to protect our high DL and also build attacks from the back. Have solid options on this position in terms of quality of our league but surely not world class players. Will surely use your instructions here.

Quote

 

Out of possession instructions - this part is potentially the most problematic one in your tactic. I am not going to tell you to "remove this" or "add that" instruction, just want to warn you of some potential risks:

1. while more (let alone extremely) urgent pressing under a high mentality is generally not advisable (see what I told you about the mentality factor in my first reply to your opening post), it may not be that much of a risk if you have the right type of players, who are capable of executing an aggressive pressing style in a relatively safe manner (here they need both physical and mental attributes);

2. a bigger problem however is your (potentially insufficient) vertical compactness. This is basically the distance between DL and LOE. The greater it is, the lower your vertical compactness is when defending. And vice versa, of course. Now, there are 3 basic levels of compactness: low, optimal and excessive, although these partly depend on the formation you use. With the combo of higher DL and much higher LOE, your level is relatively low, but not dramatically so. The well-balanced omni-strata formation you are using (4123 wide) mitigates the potential defensive risk to some degree. In a 4231 for example, this risk would be proportionally higher. 

An optimal level is generally achieved when the DL is just one notch higher than LOE (e.g. higher DL/standard LOE or standard DL/lower LOE). 

Having said all this, here are combinations of out-of-possession instructions I would suggest you should consider (taking your desired style of play into account):

The 1st combo:

- higher DL, standard LOE, prevent short GKD and either default or more urgent pressing

The 2nd combo:

- higher DL, standard LOE, default pressing and split block*

The 3rd combo:

- higher DL, higher LOE, prevent short GKD and defaut pressing

The 4th combo:

- higher DL, higher LOE, default pressing and split block* 

* in case you don't know what the term "split block" means, it's when you tell 3-5 most advanced players to close down more via their PIs, instead of increasing the pressing urgency for the whole team. By doing that, you actually make your team more aggressive overall when pressing, but without overly compromising your defensive shape. Therefore, the split block is a considerably safer option than the more or extremely urgent pressing as a team instruction. 

 

Truly speaking I expected problems in this part of my tactic as I read some of your articles related to this topic already. After this I decreased the initial pressing intensity "only" to more urgent and removed "Use Tighter Marking" - that was perfectly explained by you in one of your articles. 

Let me start with a few words. When I am thinking about my tactic, I believe that the extreme pressing is the key and most important element of it. This is a priority for me, how I want my team to present on the pitch. Neverending, extreme pressing that should be as aggressive and start as high as possible. And yes, my tactic and described style of play is surely risky. Pressing, very attacking, offense before defence, this all makes it risky. So even the in game tactic should be risky in some ways but surely not too risky, not suicidal.

So this is the reason I went for this setting and these instructions and I would definitely appreciate your help here, mainly if you take into account the above mentioned things.

I was well aware of the concept of vertical compactness from your articles but as I wanted to press extremely high I chose the have the highest possible LOE. Then I tried to limit the distance between DL and LOE by higher DL. Didn´t use the much higher DL as my central defenders aren´t the fastest, so I wanted to limit the space behind them. So this is my thinking behind this setting and what reasons led me to it.

After reading your lines I have a feeling I should firstly make a decision relating my DL. Will it be higher or much higher? And then set the LOE accordingly to keep the vertical compactness on a reasonable level. Could it be right?

Or it maybe I am interpreting the terms, especially LOE in a wrong way when I believe that you must have the highest possible LOE setting in order to press your opponent as high as possible. Or will even standart LOE you suggested make it possible? Will any of your four settings allow us to press our opponents in an aggressive and extreme way? The same about "Prevent Short GK Distribution".

I really like the idea of a split block and actually was partly using it in some of the previous years and in my current tactic, we are talking about, I have at least both DC with PI´s to press less urgently. I will definitely use this split block for pressing, so this should allow me to let the team instruction for pressing intensity on a standart level. But looking at my tactic and player roles what players would you instruct to press more urgently? SC, AML and AMR are obvious choices for me, but what about others? Central midfield duo - mezzala and box-to-box midfielder? Both? Or just mezzala?

I would really appreciate if you could assist me further with this area of play taking into account my demands for extreme pressing.

 

And now my questions about optimal player roles...

GK - Am I right when I say that duty for SK should be set in relation to the defensive line? The higher the DL is the more attacking SK should be? Highest DL, SK on attack, medium high DL, SK on support? Or there is no relation and logic behind this?

DC - After we removed short GK distribution and we want to play fast attacking football, then wouldn´t it be useful to have both DC as Ball Playing Defenders who can play more direct and risky passes?

DL/DR - Ok, I will let them on Wing Back (s), but I want my defender on the left side to be very attacking, will it be enough? Or how can I increase his attacking activity? At the same time, my prefered choice on this position has crosses early PPM - isn´t this contraproductive for what I want from this position and our style of play? Btw. both DL and DR have Gets Forward PPM, what I consider good fit.

EDITED: And what effects would bring if both wingback remain on Wing Back (s) but are moved from DL/DR position to WBL/WBR position?

Regarding the central midfield trio - how to optimalize player roles and duties here? Our players on these positions are technically gifted and mostly suited for playmaking roles, so I would like to take advantage of it, form a creative midfield.

DM role should be to protect our defence but also be creative force from lower position. Is DLP the best role here? Defend or Support duty? Or better Halfback whose in-game description suits exactly my demands? But is he creative and "offensive" enough? The same about the remaining duo, where I could mainly take advantage of AP. How whould you set the midfield here? Once again mainly to recreate my desired style of play.

EDITED: Tried to compare DLP(d) and HB(d) roles by analysing in-game description and instructions and the only difference is that DLP has Shoot Less Often activated and cannot have Take Fewer Risks. So what is the main difference between these two roles and how players behave?

AML/AMR - What is the main difference between IW and IF on the same duty? Is it so, that IW is more creative, some kinf of a "playmaker", meanwhile IF is more direct and oriented on scoring goals? Good idea to give these players "sit narrow" PI´s?

SC - Possibly the position where I have most questionmarks. When I had my striker, Boadu, play as a PF(a), he was leading our counters and found himself in plenty of one-on-one positions and scored plenty of them. In the end he scored 31 goals in 30 matches last season. He is our star player and should be our best goalscorer and I would like to keep this, but at the same time he was often quite isolated infront and didn´t take big enough part in our constructive play. So a role that would instruct him to drop deep would make sense, let it be F9 or DLP, but wouldn´t this limit his goalscoring appetit? Also I have to note that my striker is very fast and used his quickness to score his goals.

You mentioned that I would need suitable player for DLP/F9 role. I do not know what you exactly meant by this, so please have a look at my striker and let me know your opinion.

 

It would be great if you could also explain trio of in possesion instructions we haven´t discussed yet:

1) Tempo - I would say that this should be higher or extremelly high to replicate my style of play. Low tempo would mean patient play, high tempo allow us to go fast forward and do not hesitate, right?

2) Passing directness - Element of play I am really unsure how to set up correctly for our desired style of play and this relates to my previously described conflict of two playing styles. Or should fast tempo, short passing game be a good option for us and our players? Or will short passing limit the opportunities for fast, direct attacks?

3) Overlaps - Isn´t it logical to activate overlaps on both sides, looking at what I want from my wide players, where wingers cut in and wingbacks go attack and wide?

 

Once again many thanks for your feedback and advices!

Edited January 13, 2020 by Tomor29
Question regarding Wing Backs.

[Experienced Defender]

26 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

Please note that I do not want to create just a working, well-balanced tactic but a tactic that would mostly replicated my desired style of play

Yes, I did pay attention to that particular circumstance. You basically want some sort of Klopp-like style, as you explained in your opening post. 

 

31 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

I was considering positive or attacking mentality and went for the more conservative in the end. But wouldn´t attacking be better choice here? Wouldn´t it replicate the kind of fast attacking football better? We want to score goals, be active, dominate, consider attack as the best defence. I know that the selection of mentality would influence all other things, so this is the main question. What is the better choice here?

As I said, the Positive is a good starting point. Once you gain sufficient tactical experience and understanding of your players and their abilities, you can easily switch between different mentalities, making proper tweaks to other instructions in order to avoid tactical overkill. For now, stick to the Positive, look what happens and be patient. Experiment, but carefully and in a gradual manner. You are already employing a higher tempo and standard passing under the Positive mentality, which makes your play fast and active enough. If you switched to the attacking, you would likely need to tone down tempo or passing, if not even both. 

I'll answer the rest of your questions later today.

[Tomor29]

Yes, I know that you have taken my demands into account already, but still wanted to mention it again. And I´m really happy that you consider my style of play as Klopp-like as this is exactly how I look at it. :-) Anyway looking forward to your reply!

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

I´m really happy that you consider my style of play as Klopp-like as this is exactly how I look at it. :-)

You yourself said you wanted to play like Klopp, so I just took that into account. Whether your team is good enough to play that way is a completely different question though. 

 

6 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

I have to add that I want to be my 3 offensive players (strikers and wingers) very fast

You want these 3 players to be very fast (acceleration and pace), or you want your other players to play the ball to them as quickly as possible (fast attacking transitions)? 

 

6 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

The reasoning behind fairly narrow attacking width is very similar - was inspired by the preset. Personally I also believed that this instruction would help our players to be closer to each other, behave more like a team, one unit, and this could be helpful when pressing, no? Attacking width is one of the elements I surely do not understand properly. What are pros and cons of both settings? And what would be best for my style then?

There are no pros and cons. I tend to start with the default width and then tweak it during a match either to narrower or wider as I see fit (based on what I observe watching the match). When you are a strong team (favorite) facing a defensive opponent, then wider width makes more sense than narrower, because you want to stretch the opposition and try to create some gaps in their defense for your players to exploit. 

 

6 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

Definitely agree with "Be more expressive" TI. As I said I have mostly very technical players, midfield consist almost exclusively of this kind of players, and want to play this way, so this should definitely help. This will give all players more creative freedom, right? Or any other effect?

Yes, plus more freedom of movement in attack, especially in he final third. 

 

6 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

Not sure what "Work ball into box" TI excatly does, when is it good idea to use it. I felt that it will limit long shots, shots from worse positions and players will patiently wait and work for better positions. I would definitely use it if I would like to play possession football with many passes, patient play, but isn´t it contraproductive for my style of play?

It basically does that, but as I said in an earlier post - you can use it in combination with the Be more expressive (because these 2 TIs can offset each other to some degree). Also, note the difference between "can use" and "must use". So my point on the WBiB was not that you should use the instruction or not. Instead, I said that you can use it as an occasional option and see in which situations it helps you and when it does not. Klopp also sometimes want his players to try and work ball into box, but only to a degree that does not negate his primary style of play. Remember, nothing works in isolation when it comes to tactic. Therefore, effects of any instruction can be either toned down somewhat or additionally boosted by another instruction(s).

I'll again have to leave the answers to the rest of your questions for later, because there are really too many of them 

[Tomor29]

Yes, I take your words as advices and recommendations from much more experienced user... 

Regarding those three offensive players - I wanted to say that they all are rather pacy and take advantage of it.

Sorry for so many questions but I really want to understand how to improve my tactic and play my favorite style of play. Thanks again for your time and looking forward to your reply.

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

Regarding those three offensive players - I wanted to say that they all are rather pacy and take advantage of it

It basically means you should not play with a high LOE, so that you could create more space for them to exploit using their speed. Considering your desired style. I think standard LOE would be optimal (coupled with higher DL).  

I hope I'll manage to answer more of your questions till the end of the day. 

[Tomor29]

Great, that surely makes sense. Thanks for your explanation.

If we are talking about physical attributes of my players, than I should also add, that they are generally small (or not tall at least) with not the best jumping reach. The exception are central defenders, who in contrary are strong and great headers. How will this info affect our planned attacking style?

[Experienced Defender]

38 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

If we are talking about physical attributes of my players, than I should also add, that they are generally small (or not tall at least) with not the best jumping reach. The exception are central defenders, who in contrary are strong and great headers. How will this info affect our planned attacking style?

It should not particularly affect your preferred attacking style. It may affect how you defend set pieces, but that's another story. 

[Tomor29]

I have already made some changes to my initial tactic following your recommendations but I am still looking forward to your replies to my questions to finalise it and test in matches. 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

I have already made some changes to my initial tactic following your recommendations but I am still looking forward to your replies to my questions to finalise it and test in matches. 

I fear I won't be able - due to the lack of time - to answer all your questions, because there are too many of them, plus other people on the forum also need tactical help.

For that reason, it would be more than welcome if you could post a screenshot of that new(est) tactic, because it will take far less time to analyze it and tell you what (if anything) can be improved than trying to answer all the questions from your earlier post(s) 

[Tomor29]

That´s a pitty but I understand you and will try to make it easier for you. So here is the tactic I used for the second part of the season (with ocassional in-game changes)...

Out of possession instructions I used your recommended 2nd combo of higher DL, standard LOE, default pressing and split block (used ST, AML, AMR and Mezzala - should I also add the second CM?)  I  would definitely appreciate your help here to create some nice style of pressing.

The results and overall performance of this changed tactic were mixed in the testing period - we started really well and achieved some pretty solid results with plenty of goals and clear cut chances but the second part was pretty bad and we won just one match out of last 6 duels. With no clear changes in starting line ups, players morale etc.

In comparision to the previous tactic I would say that results-wise it was pretty even, with very similar winning percentage, goals scored and condeded. Some matches were excellent, other pretty bad. Clear differences in stats were that we had clearly lower possession, MUCH less passes and also our board was less satisfied with our attempts to play "high-tempo pressing football".

I found that especially our midfield was not working well enough, AML, MCL and MCR rarely made a real impact on a game and usually had pretty average ratings. It would be great if you could help me with setting up our midfield as in my eyes this should be an engine of our team. We have some really technically gifted players, whose best roles are playmakers, there and would like to take advantage of them. What about changing roles? And would be a shorter passing TI be a good idea?

Also both wingbacks, especially on the left side, could be more attacking and more influence our play on the final third in my eyes.

 

I will also repeat some of my previous questions I would like to know your opinion about as this could help me better understand my tactic...

- What does exactly Passing into space" make and how does it relate to my style of play and gegenpressing?

- Would you recommend any way to make my wingbacks or just one of them more attacking? How can I increase their attacking activity? At the same time, my prefered choice on this position has crosses early PPM - isn´t this contraproductive for what I want from this position and our style of play? Btw. both DL and DR have Gets Forward PPM, what I consider good fit.

- Regarding the central midfield trio - how to optimalize player roles and duties here? Our players on these positions are technically gifted and mostly suited for playmaking roles, so I would like to take advantage of it, form a creative midfield. DM role should be to protect our defence but also be creative force from lower position. Is DLP the best role here? Defend or Support duty? Or better Halfback whose in-game description suits exactly my demands? But is he creative and "offensive" enough? The same about the remaining duo, where I could mainly take advantage of AP. How whould you set the midfield here? Once again mainly to recreate my desired style of play.

- Passing directness - Element of play I am really unsure how to set up correctly for our desired style of play and this relates to my previously described conflict of two playing styles. Or should fast tempo, short passing game be a good option for us and our players? Or will short passing limit the opportunities for fast, direct attacks?

 

[Experienced Defender]

48 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

Out of possession instructions I used your recommended 2nd combo of higher DL, standard LOE, default pressing and split block (used ST, AML, AMR and Mezzala - should I also add the second CM?)

You can add the other CM if you want, but I personally would not. You can try and see anyway. 

 

49 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

I  would definitely appreciate your help here to create some nice style of pressing

What do you mean by "nice style of pressing"? The style of pressing you use in this tactic is the one that generally works best for me when I play this particular style of football (progressive possession, as I like to call it). 

 

53 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

The results and overall performance of this changed tactic were mixed in the testing period - we started really well and achieved some pretty solid results with plenty of goals and clear cut chances but the second part was pretty bad and we won just one match out of last 6 duels. With no clear changes in starting line ups, players morale etc.

In comparision to the previous tactic I would say that results-wise it was pretty even, with very similar winning percentage, goals scored and condeded. Some matches were excellent, other pretty bad. Clear differences in stats were that we had clearly lower possession, MUCH less passes and also our board was less satisfied with our attempts to play "high-tempo pressing football"

I like the tactic in general, but it does not mean it cannot be improved. Plus, you should not view this tactic as a plug'n'play tactic, which means you'll need to watch your matches, analyze the opponents and make small and gradual tweaks on occasion. If you want a plug'n'play tactic, there are plenty in the Tactics Download and Sharing section of the forum.

As important, even if you create a "perfect tactic" (hypothetically speaking) in terms of roles, duties and instructions, it can still fail if you don't have the right players for each position/role/duty and for that particular style of play. I don't know your team, so I cannot say if this tactic is optimal for you. But as I said - it already looks pretty decent, so I assume you won't need to make too many tweaks. 

Here are some ideas for you to consider (based on how you described your team's overall performance and results with this tactic:

- drop the tempo one notch (to standard instead of higher) - in relation to the lower possession stats

- don't use the Counter TI in transition all the time, but only situationally (e.g. you have taken the lead and you see the opponent has become more attacking trying to equalize) - again in relation to the possession stats

- remove the Pass into space (this is generally the type of instruction that should be used situationally, rather than on a regular basis) - also primarily in relation to possession

- change the GK from SK on attack to SK on support

- change the striker's duty to support, so that he would better create the space for the mezzala and IF on attack, along with being more involved in the build-up phase of your attacks

This was the first set of tactical tweaks I would look to implement. There are potentially a couple more, but it's better to go step by step. 

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

would be a shorter passing TI be a good idea?

Absolutely. I totally failed to notice that your passing was not set to shorter. I thought it already was shorter. 

 

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

I found that especially our midfield was not working well enough, AML, MCL and MCR rarely made a real impact on a game and usually had pretty average ratings. It would be great if you could help me with setting up our midfield as in my eyes this should be an engine of our team. We have some really technically gifted players, whose best roles are playmakers, there and would like to take advantage of them. What about changing roles?

I can tell you what is/are generally my favorite 4123 setup(s) for top teams, but I cannot know in advance if that's going to work for your team. Btw, it's not too dissimilar to yours. 

 

[Kripster]

My suggestions: attacking mentality

Whipped crosses

Run at defense

Be more expressive

Take off fairly narrow in possession

On 12/01/2020 at 19:23, Tomor29 said:

Olá , Defensor experiente ,

muito obrigado pela sua resposta e principalmente por você ser útil para me ajudar com minha tática e criar o estilo de futebol que eu gostaria de ver. Isso significa muito para mim, então agradeço antecipadamente! Estou jogando há mais de uma década, adoro desenvolvimento juvenil, esquadrão de construção, transferências e muitas outras partes, mas criar tática nunca foi o meu ponto forte. Eu leio muito, espero que conheça o básico e, no final, possa criar uma tática que me ajude a dominar a liga (mas isso também pode acontecer principalmente porque, depois de alguns anos, geralmente tenho os melhores jogadores do meu time em comparação com os rivais da liga), mas porque meu conhecimento tático é limitado, não posso ajustar minha tática e torná-la brilhante como muitos outros jogadores aqui e nunca alcançamos um sucesso significativo nas competições europeias e, principalmente, reproduzimos meu estilo de futebol desejado.

 

Então, em primeiro lugar, devo escrever sobre o estilo de futebol que quero jogar:

1) Futebol ofensivo e divertido, com muitas chances criadas e gols marcados. Prefere ver uma vitória por 4: 3 do que apenas 1: 0.

2) Devemos ser proativos em vez de reagir ao que nossos oponentes fazem. Devemos colocar nossos oponentes sob forte pressão e ter tempo com eles pressionando alto, jogando principalmente na metade do oponente.

3) Queremos jogar rápido. Eu não sou um grande fã de passes intermináveis e estilo de jogo tikitaka. Se houver uma chance de ataque rápido, devemos usá-lo, uma vez que não há aberturas e os oponentes estão em suas posições, podemos manter a bola e criar chances passando.

4) Quer jogar e se comportar como um time, não apenas jogadores isolados.

Quero que meus jogadores sejam fisicamente fortes, esforçados e rápidos, portanto, preste atenção a atributos como resistência, condicionamento natural, taxa de trabalho, determinação, ritmo ou aceleração ao montar meu time e também tecnicamente talentoso.

Aqui está como está minha tática atual ...

Eu estava considerando duas formações - 4-1-4-1 DM Wide e 4-2-3-1 Wide para minha equipe, mas no final decidi escolher a primeira, pois a posição do Mestre deveria proteger nossa dupla defensiva central, como os laterais devem ser muito agressivo.

GK - Sweeper Keeper (dever A ou S) - meu goleiro deve proteger nossa linha defensiva alta e também ter habilidades de jogar bola, devemos jogar pelas costas.

DL / R - Lateral Traseiro (s) - os zagueiros esquerdo e direito devem atacar principalmente jogadores que devem dar amplitude à nossa formação e ajudar nosso ataque, cooperar com alas que devem cortar. Wing Back? Em suporte? Ataque? Ou asa completa de volta? É claro que os jogadores devem ser fisicamente muito fortes, com grande resistência e aceleração.

DCL / R - Eu dei uma bola de zagueiro central, o outro zagueiro central. Deve ser rápido o suficiente com boa antecipação para cobrir o espaço por causa do alto DL. Ambos são muito bons cabeçalhos. Quando em possessão, quero que eles nos ajudem a jogar pelas costas.

DM - Deep Lying Playmaker (d) - Quero que esse jogador ajude nossa dupla defensiva central a fornecer algum tipo de cobertura, principalmente quando perdemos a bola no campo ou o oponente escapa à nossa alta pressão.

MCL - Mezzala (a) - jogador ofensivo que deve ajudar nossos ataques e também criar algum tipo de sobrecarga no lado esquerdo? Boa ideia dar a ele PPM para trocar a bola para outro flanco para liberar o ataque SE?

MCR - Meio-campo (s) de Box to Box

AML - Inverted Winger (s) - jogador para criar sobrecarga no lado esquerdo com Mezzala e DL, corta por dentro. Eu gostaria que este jogador também marcasse alguns gols, então IW ou melhor, se?

AMR - Inside Forward (a) - usado para jogadores rápidos, espera que esta posição marque muitos gols. Deve cooperar com o DR.

SC - Prosseguindo (a) - decidiu usar esse papel, mas e os outros papéis? Principalmente F9, mas também Complete Forward ou Deep Lying Forward? Talvez tenha meu melhor jogador nessa posição, então, queira usá-lo plenamente, também espere que ele marque muitos gols, mas ao mesmo tempo ofereça ao nosso time mais do que apenas marcar gols.

Devo também acrescentar que tenho uma equipe cheia de jogadores técnicos muito sólidos, especialmente no meio-campo, que podem ser muito bons jogadores ou mezzalas e gostariam de aproveitar isso.

 

Como você pode ver, eu teria muitas, muitas perguntas sobre as melhores configurações, instruções da equipe, funções etc. e realmente apreciaria sua ajuda que me permitiria criar o estilo tático que quero ver. Eu acrescentaria que eu consegui vencer a Eredivisie na primeira temporada com essa tática (algumas mudanças ocasionais) e ainda invicto na primeira metade da segunda temporada, mas falhei muito na Europa nas duas temporadas.

 

[Tomor29]

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

What do you mean by "nice style of pressing"? The style of pressing you use in this tactic is the one that generally works best for me when I play this particular style of football (progressive possession, as I like to call it). 

By "nice style of pressing" I meant an aggressive, extreme pressing as I consider this as one of the key elements of my play. I know that it may be more risky and less stable defensively but would it make any sense for you to keep higher DL, standard LOE, split block and increase pressing to more urgent?

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I like the tactic in general, but it does not mean it cannot be improved. Plus, you should not view this tactic as a plug'n'play tactic, which means you'll need to watch your matches, analyze the opponents and make small and gradual tweaks on occasion. If you want a plug'n'play tactic, there are plenty in the Tactics Download and Sharing section of the forum.

No, I surely do not want to download some "perfect", universal tactic, exactly in contrary to this - as I said, I want to create a tactic that would allow me to replicate my desired style of play and mainly fully understand the mechanics behing it and how could it be improved.

11 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Here are some ideas for you to consider (based on how you described your team's overall performance and results with this tactic:

- drop the tempo one notch (to standard instead of higher) - in relation to the lower possession stats

- don't use the Counter TI in transition all the time, but only situationally (e.g. you have taken the lead and you see the opponent has become more attacking trying to equalize) - again in relation to the possession stats

- remove the Pass into space (this is generally the type of instruction that should be used situationally, rather than on a regular basis) - also primarily in relation to possession

- change the GK from SK on attack to SK on support

- change the striker's duty to support, so that he would better create the space for the mezzala and IF on attack, along with being more involved in the build-up phase of your attacks

This was the first set of tactical tweaks I would look to implement. There are potentially a couple more, but it's better to go step by step.

I would like to keep the tempo high as I see this as a key element of my style of play. Similarly with Counter TI - isn´t this the exact instruction that helps to replicate the idea for fast attacking/counter attacking when possible? Do not want to play any kind of tiki-taka, slow possession game. Could you please explain me the meaning of this instriction? Same about Pass into space.

Agree with and will change the other suggested ideas - GK on support, striker on DLF on support duty (or would it be better to have F9? But as I said, this should be my main goalscorer and main attacking force) and shorter passing.

 

I know that you cannot tell me the exact roles and duties but you definitely know how various roles cooperate and which one should/shouldn´t be used for various styles of play. It would be really great if you could have a look at my midfield as it really is a disappointment for me so far. It should be an engine of my team, creative force but looking at the stats these players have very low number of passes made and aren´t much involved in our play. Especially MCR or maybe also DM could be somehow changed IMO. What about some playmaking role for MCR? APs, DLs, RPMs? How would this behave with mezzala and DM? Something like Mez(a) - AP(s) - DLP (d)? Mez(a) - DLP(s) - HB(d)? Or anything like this?

 

I see the duties for my players in this way - DCs and DM should mainly defend, keep us safe, wingbacks should be very attacking, give us width, midfield (mainly MCL, AML and also MCR should be creative, keep the ball, with MCR also helping with some defence), AMR and SC should be attacking, score plenty of goals for us.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Tomor29

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

By "nice style of pressing" I meant an aggressive, extreme pressing as I consider this as one of the key elements of my play. I know that it may be more risky and less stable defensively but would it make any sense for you to keep higher DL, standard LOE, split block and increase pressing to more urgent?

If you increase the team pressing to more (or extremely) urgent, then you don't need a split block. Either one or the other. Of course, you can try whatever you want. It's your team and your tactic. So if that's how you want to play, I wish you good luck  

 

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

I want to create a tactic that would allow me to replicate my desired style of play

When you say your "desired style", are you referring to Liverpool under Klopp? And if so, do you want to replicate how LFC play under Klopp now (in the last 2 seasons), or how it played in Klopp's first season at the club? 

 

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

I would like to keep the tempo high as I see this as a key element of my style of play

Okay, but remember that the mentality automatically affects tempo (among other instructions). And if you want to keep higher tempo, then it's advisable to at least set passing to shorter if possession stats matter to you. 

 

2 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

Counter TI - isn´t this the exact instruction that helps to replicate the idea for fast attacking/counter attacking when possible? Do not want to play any kind of tiki-taka, slow possession game. Could you please explain me the meaning of this instriction?

Counter TI is a transitional instruction that encourages your players to attempt a counter-attack as soon as they win the ball (intercept an opposition attack). But counter-attacks can occur without the Counter TI, especially if the rest of your tactic is set up in such a way as to encourage counter-attacking. Of course, you can use the Counter TI if you want to maximize the number of counter-attack attempts, but keep i mind that it can sometimes/often lead to a needless and premature loss of possession. So everything has its pros and cons when it comes to tactics. 

[Tomor29]

Great, many thanks @Experienced Defender for your feedback and patience. I would be really thankful if you could also have a look at my midfield and optimalize roles there. Does it make sense to use playmaker on the right side, together with mezzala?

It would be probably Klopp´s style from last two seasons, that is a bit more safe and patient than before, no?

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

 

31 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

I would be really thankful if you could also have a look at my midfield and optimalize roles there

I cannot "optimize" roles, because different combos can work for different teams and/or styles of play. I can only tell you what my preferred setup would be like:

DLFat

IFsu                              APsu

MEZat   BWMsu

HB

IWBsu    CDde  BPDde  FBat

SKsu

Or, if you want to use a DLP, this could be another way to go:

DLFat

IFsu                               IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

FB/WBat  CDde  BPDde  IWBsu

SKsu

 

31 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

It would be probably Klopp´s style from last two seasons, that is a bit more safe and patient than before, no?

Yes, it's less aggressive and more sophisticated (not the real gegenpress anymore). 

If you are really so sure that your team is strong enough - both in the attacking and defensive sense - to play literally like Liverpool, then you may try with something like this:

flat narrow 4123:

F9      TQ      AF

 

CAR      BBM

HB

CWBat    CDde  BPDde   WBsu

SKsu/at

Attacking mentality

In possession - play out of defence, slightly shorter passing, slightly lower tempo, run at defence, be more expressive, pass into space (and sometimes overlap right and/or hit early crosses)

In transition - counter, counter-press (and sometimes distribute quickly)

Out of possession - higher DL, standard LOE, tighter marking, offside trap (and sometimes prevent short GKD)

But I once again have to warn you that this could really be too risky if you don't have the right players. 

[Tomor29]

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I cannot "optimize" roles, because different combos can work for different teams and/or styles of play. I can only tell you what my preferred setup would be like:

DLFat

IFsu                              APsu

MEZat   BWMsu

HB

IWBsu    CDde  BPDde  FBat

SKsu

Or, if you want to use a DLP, this could be another way to go:

DLFat

IFsu                               IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

FB/WBat  CDde  BPDde  IWBsu

SKsu

Yes, I meant that way, your preffered setup. Many thanks for your suggestions. Unfortunatelly such distribution of roles wouldn´t suit my players, so I would need to keep roles for both wingers and some other positions... Maybe this setup could also work?

DLFsu

IWsu                               IFat

MEZat  APsu/RMPsu/DLPsu

DLPde/HB/DM

WBsu/WBat  CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKsu

 

Positions in red are questionmarks for me.

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

Unfortunatelly such distribution of roles wouldn´t suit my players, so I would need to keep roles for both wingers and some other positions

What exactly do you mean by "wouldn't suit players"? How do you determine which roles a player can play?

[Tomor29]

Well, f.ex. I do not have any winger that would have abilities/attributes to play a playmaker role on the wing. That´s why I would like to mostly keep the roles we made on the first change and only somehow tweak the midfield (if possible) to make it more creative and playing with the ball. For these reasons I am considering to implement a playmaker role somewhere in the midfield.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

Well, f.ex. I do not have any winger that would have abilities/attributes to play a playmaker role on the wing

Well, a player that has the attributes for the IW role should be able to play as an AP in a wide position. But if none of your wide fwds has the right attributes, you have the 2nd setup, which employs a DLP in central midfield. So you can go with that one. As you said: 

2 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

For these reasons I am considering to implement a playmaker role somewhere in the midfield

 

[Tomor29]

Thanks. So does it still make sense for you if that 2nd setup whould be changed this way?

DLFat

IWsu                               IFat

MEZat   DLPsu

HB

WBat  CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKsu

 

But the left flank would be quite vulnerable defensively, no?

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

But the left flank would be quite vulnerable defensively, no?

Yes, it would. Although Rashidi had a tactic (in FM19) where he used exactly the same setup on the left side - WBat, MEZat and IFsu (IW was not available in AMR/L position then), and it worked really nicely for him. He used it with Liverpool though, so he had the players who are good enough. However, he also warned people that it can be too risky if you don't have the right players. So you can try, but be prepared to accept the risk.

[Tomor29]

So I will choose between two setups for next season...

1)

DLFsu (alternatively on attack)

IWsu                               IFat

MEZat   BBMsu

DLPde

WBsu (alternatively on attack)  CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKsu

2)

DLFsu (alternatively on attack)

IWsu                               IFat

MEZat   DLPsu

HB

WBsu (alternatively on attack)  CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKsu

 

Is any of these more prefered by you? Or more suitable for playing style? Let this really be my final question...

[Experienced Defender]

24 minutes ago, Tomor29 said:

Is any of these more prefered by you? Or more suitable for playing style?

Honestly, I personally wouldn't use either of them. But it does not mean they cannot work for you (i.e. your team). Just not my cup of tea.

[Tomor29]

Well, you managed to make several things clear for me but honestly in general I feel similarly confused as at the start of this thread and actually do not know whether this tactic will allow me to successfully replicate my desired style of play or how to fix the central midfield and make my creative players more involved in our play. Many thanks for your feedback and help anyway!

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

Well, you managed to make several things clear for me but honestly in general I feel similarly confused as at the start of this thread and actually do not know whether this tactic will allow me to successfully replicate my desired style of play or how to fix the central midfield and make my creative players more involved in our play. Many thanks for your feedback and help anyway!

You are welcome mate, good luck 

[Tomor29]

After almost a whole season played, I feel it´s time to come back with some feedback and ask for further optimization. I made some tweaks and finished with this starting tactic...

It works pretty well but there is still room for improvements. I am happy how we play against strong opponents (usually drop the LOE and remove Pass into Space TI) as we create plenty of good chances with fast attacking play. This way we defeated all big teams in the league, including demolition of Ajax side, a match that could be rated as the best match of this year´s edition for me.

 

On the other hand we had some problems in matches against weaker sides (most of the remaining league teams). We achieve to win in the end, on most occassions, but find it much more difficult to create chances and score goals against these teams, teams that are mainly defending against us. What changes could help us to be more effective against deep defences? I tried to increase width of our play, tweak some duties/roles but failed to consistently break defences and create chances. We usually do not have much problems to dominate but it is rather steril domination. Any advices?

There are also several things that surprised me...

1) The tactic was created and roles choosen with intention to overload left side with our players and then attack right side with IF on attack duty. So I would expect that the play will be oriented mainly on the left side and that this will be reflected on the heat map. But the opposite is true on most occassions.

2) What also surprises me is the fact, that MC on the left side, Mezzala on attack duty, regularly has the highest number of crosses (by far). What is the reasoning behind this? And also I would expect that both central midfielders will be more involved in our passing game and how much higher number of passes made. Our teams stats usually show something like this:

 

Any feedback is welcomed here.

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

I am happy how we play against strong opponents (usually drop the LOE and remove Pass into Space TI)

Actually, passing into space should make more sense precisely against those strong opponents than against weaker ones, especially when you play away from home, because strong teams are likely to leave you more space (unlike defensive teams, which look to deny you the space). 

 

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

What also surprises me is the fact, that MC on the left side, Mezzala on attack duty, regularly has the highest number of crosses (by far)

It's not surprising that a mezzala have a good number of crosses, especially as your both wide players on his side are played in roles that are hard-coded to sit/cut inside and cross less. Btw, you need to know that crosses from set pieces are also counted in match stats. So if your mezzala is a set piece taker, it can also contribute to this high number of crosses. 

 

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

The tactic was created and roles choosen with intention to overload left side with our players and then attack right side with IF on attack duty. So I would expect that the play will be oriented mainly on the left side and that this will be reflected on the heat map. But the opposite is true on most occassions

Well, your playmaker is on the right side (MCR). So it's not that much surprising when you think twice. 

[Tomor29]

45 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Actually, passing into space should make more sense precisely against those strong opponents than against weaker ones, especially when you play away from home, because strong teams are likely to leave you more space (unlike defensive teams, which look to deny you the space).

My mistake. There should be that I remove it against defending, lowly sitting teams as there is no space to attack.

 

47 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

It's not surprising that a mezzala have a good number of crosses, especially as your both wide players on his side are played in roles that are hard-coded to sit/cut inside and cross less. Btw, you need to know that crosses from set pieces are also counted in match stats. So if your mezzala is a set piece taker, it can also contribute to this high number of crosses.

Yes, he is set piece taker, both corners and free kicks, so this explains it. Thanks.

 

What changes would you make to open lowly sitting defensive teams?

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tomor29 said:

What changes would you make to open lowly sitting defensive teams?

Probably nothing (or at least nothing too big), because you yourself wrote: 

 

4 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

we had some problems in matches against weaker sides (most of the remaining league teams). We achieve to win in the end, on most occassions

Therefore, you are actually managing to break them down in most cases. 

 

4 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

but find it much more difficult to create chances and score goals against these teams, teams that are mainly defending against us

Which is quite normal and logical. Because it's always easier to create good chances against stronger teams who attack you and thus leave more space for you to exploit, than defensive ones who defend with 9-10 men behind the ball all the time. But when you have a good tactic, the advantage your players have over the opposition in terms of quality will in most cases prevail in the end. And your tactic looks pretty good IMO 

P.S; in fact, there is a tweak I would make specifically against those weaker opponents - I would remove the Counter TI. Do you know why?

[Tomor29]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

11 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

What changes would you make to open lowly sitting defensive teams?

Probably nothing (or at least nothing too big), because you yourself wrote:

13 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

we had some problems in matches against weaker sides (most of the remaining league teams). We achieve to win in the end, on most occassions

Therefore, you are actually managing to break them down in most cases. 

Yes, we usually beat them in the end but the difference in quality of players is really big, so we beat these opponents thanks to this, not because of the tactic. And as I said usually have to make some tactical changes (would like to know what other would change in these situations), otherwise fans would be watching very boring game with low number of shots and chances created.

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

14 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

but find it much more difficult to create chances and score goals against these teams, teams that are mainly defending against us

Which is quite normal and logical. Because it's always easier to create good chances against stronger teams who attack you and thus leave more space for you to exploit, than defensive ones who defend with 9-10 men behind the ball all the time. But when you have a good tactic, the advantage your players have over the opposition in terms of quality will in most cases prevail in the end. And your tactic looks pretty good IMO 

Sure, it is. But I have a feeling we have to adapt our tactic to the fact that most sides are heavily defending against us. It works sooooo well against opponents that offer us some space and want to play open game with us, but there surely room for improvements against weaker teams.

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

P.S; in fact, there is a tweak I would make specifically against those weaker opponents - I would remove the Counter TI. Do you know why?

I guess because of the fact that these sides, when sitting low, do not offer any space to us and therefore there is little room for counters?

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

Sure, it is. But I have a feeling we have to adapt our tactic to the fact that most sides are heavily defending against us. It works sooooo well against opponents that offer us some space and want to play open game with us, but there surely room for improvements against weaker teams

There is always room for improvement, even in the best tactic in the world. But there is no universal recipe that says "do this" or "do that". You have to watch your matches carefully and see which tweaks would make sense in different situations. The good thing is that you have a pretty good primary tactic, so these potential tweaks are probably going to be minimal. 

 

3 hours ago, Tomor29 said:

I guess because of the fact that these sides, when sitting low, do not offer any space to us and therefore there is little room for counters?

Yes, but not only that. Another reason is this: when you use the Counter TI, your players will look to launch a counter-attack as soon as they win the ball back. But given how defensive the opposition is, most of those attempts are likely to fail and you lose the ball quickly. Which is an ideal scenario for your defensive opponent, because they will have more time with the ball and can use it to waste time as much as possible. 

However, when you take the lead and notice that the opponent has become more attack-minded, you can then turn the Counter TI on to try and take advantage of such situation.

NOTE: Your players will occasionally attempt counter-attacks even without the counter TI. They will just not rush into counters at every opportunity. You can even create a counter-attacking tactic without using the counter TI. 

[pauso]

My 433 is quite similar to yours, in terms of roles I've better results with the combo MEZ (A) and IW(S) instead of an if(s). In midfield I had a dlp like you, but sometimes the wingback was too exposed, so I changed the dlp to a CAR. I usually start the match with less Ti, usually short pass, pod and high def line, sometimes counterpress if I'm the better team