i dont understand where this all went wrong

[dang3rouspeach]

Played one season in championship won/drew a lot of 1-0 games, 10 games or so into EPL season and its a lot more of the same. I don't fully understand where the tactic(s) are breaking down. My striker(s) always seem horribly isolated from everyone else and incredibly static.

On my 433 tactic I've tried DLF(s) as well and I haven't noticed a huge difference between that and the F9. In the 433 I usually have the AML on IF(a). I've tried using a DLF(s) and F9 on the 442 as someone who will drop to pick up the pass and then play the other guy through (have alternated AF and P), but they always seem to be disjointed/not close enough to each other to really combine - how do I get them to work together more effectively ? I tried adjusting attacking width but they seem to still drift apart from each other (no additional PIs ticked for any of the additional roles). 

The 442 I've also tried using WM on the outsides and then PIs for forward runs/more risk - In my head I think I'm looking for something thats a combo of IFs/APa/W - I want them to dribble and take on defenders while cutting inside and looking to play someone else through. If they are on the opposite side of the ball I want them to be looking to run onto a ball. Not sure entirely what role/instructions create this. 

Essentially what I'm trying to create is my mids playing a diagonal ball to the corner for outside mid to run onto and then dribble the outside back/cut the ball back. My alternative method of attack is is winger/AML/R gets the ball and beats a defender 1v1, drives towards the middle and slips a pass through to one of the strikers. Again, I'm not sure exactly what instructions/roles/duties will create the desired movement though. 

The attacking movement that has on occasion been successful for me is a ball played to a wide player who plays a diagonal through ball for the forward to run onto. Although I'm not sure entirely how to recreate that reliably (APs on AML and AF w/ IFa AMR?) I've tried to buy/train players with decent passing/technique/vision and 'plays killer ball'. 

I want my full backs to provide width while attacking, and provide a passing option without looking to cross so much (I feel like whenever they look to cross they just get closed down and the cross gets blocked and its annoying). 

I went with shorter passing since I thought that would force my team to pass short, giving everyone a chance to catch up to the strikers and provide support - should I be playing on balanced/more direct? 

I've tinkered with work ball into box and havent really noticed a huge difference either way with it. 

Sorry, I have a lot of questions and probably didn't articulate any of them clearly. Any feedback is much appreciated! 

[summatsupeer]

Your 9th in your first PL season? Are you expecting too much from the players you have?

[dang3rouspeach]

maybe... its still early in the season... two games ago i think i was in 16th... GD of +2, and I've only played city so far out of the big 6. 

Have been watching the games on full and it just looks painful.

Have had a hard time teasing out if its a tactic issue/role and duty issue/poor quality player. When I watch the games and have a player set as a winger, I have a hard time visualizing how an inside forward might move in the same scenario compared to the winger. 

Was hoping additional sets of eyes could give me a fresh perspective on it. 

[pheelf]

I think you might be struggling to see much movement upfront because of how much you are compressing the space available for your players.

Take your 4-3-3 for example, there is very little space for the F9 to drop off into as that space is being compressed by the two central midfielders who will both look to attack centrally and the Inside Forwards who want to cut inside. All of which is exacerbated by playing a more aggressive mentality which will make the players in behind more forward thinking and the F9 less inclined to participate in the build-up play as his individual mentality will have been raised also.

I'm not sure that having Shorter Passing as a global instruction is a good fit for your 4-3-3 either. It may work for the defenders and central midfield as there are a lot more consistent short range passing triangles available but doesn't really work for the front 3 who are spatially separated which is why you could be seeing a lack of interplay between them if forcing them to adopt a short passing style.

To solve these issues I would consider changing one of the wide attacking midfielders to a winger and playing a more conservative role when it comes to making forward runs in the central midfield on that side. That way you have created a bit of space for your F9 to drop into while also stretching the pitch more and creating variety in your attacking play. I'd also scrap the TI of Shorter Passing and Work Ball Into Box, just because you don't specifically tell the players a certain instruction doesn't mean that they won't perform it but giving them a bit more freedom to express themselves might help you to see more of what you're looking for (through balls by the IF, central midfielders playing diagonal balls to the flanks). Unfortunately, there exists no role in the game for the AMR/L position which will give you exactly what you are looking for consistently (situational inside and outside movements). The closest you can get to this is the Wide Midfielder role in the ML/MR positions.

As for the 4-4-2, I can see a few issues.

- Given that the formation is naturally wide and has gaps between the lines I think you will find it difficult to make a short passing game work with it. In my opinion, a 4-4-2 is more suited to direct play as there is no area on the pitch where you can easily retain the ball because of a numerical advantage.

- You have very little width and any width you do get from your fullbacks will arrive very late in moves. This isn't ideal when you have players up the field that want early service (your 2 strikers). 

- You have no holding midfielder which is important for three reasons. Firstly, you need a defensive pivot to drop deep and show for the ball to give your defenders a passing option especially if you wish to persist with the TI of Play Out Of Defence. Secondly, you need a player that is going to create depth in your attacks and also offer an outlet to recycle possession should you find your path to the goal being blocked. Finally, you need a player to sit back for when your attacks break down so that they can delay your opponents counter attacks while players get back to their defensive positions. Without that the opposition is straight into your back line which is an ultra-risky strategy.

- I'm not really sure you should be playing such a low line of engagement. The reasons are two-fold, it means that your midfielders and attackers are basically passengers when it comes to defending. They will do very little pressing in a formation which inherently has big issues with vertical coverage of the pitch, I think it's a recipe for disaster. Playing such a low line of engagement also means that your instruction to 'Get Stuck In' will mean that your players will be trying to win the ball deep in your own half which isn't good as it could lead to the concession of penalties and dangerous free kicks on a regular basis. It puts a lot of pressure on your back line. 

You have been successful but isolation of players and a lack of good attacking movement is something which will cause problems with regards to getting results sooner or later. The best advice I can give is that you need to create depth and width to your attacks in order to create the space needed to see the movement you want. 

All the best with this

[summatsupeer]

I think the shorter passing contradicts that cross field ball your wanting.  Along with play out of defence on positive mentality they will look to play through midfield more often than not. 

The midfield 3 are quite simple which isn't bad, but the 3 forwards all look take risks with passing and dribbling. Due to the patience of the deeper players and passing settings they will likely be against an organized defence when they get the ball and start there runs with the ball.  You've then got both wide players coming inside and the ST dropping into that area, the CM-A will push up into that area as well as the CM-S later on. All with a narrower attacking width setting so likely congested and few varied passing options.

I really don't see how the forward is isolated unless he's setting off on a run with the ball like you've told him rather than holding it up, could you show some examples?  Is it just defenders hoofing it when pressured? The gk since you haven't given distribution instructions?

[dang3rouspeach]

awesome, thanks for the reply. definitely gives me something to work with. 

I'm a little fuzzy on how the individual mentality affects movement - build up. So that gives me something to look into. Thought I needed aggressive mentality to encourage runs in behind. 

Will take the shorter passing off and see how it goes, was thinking that would encourage players to move into supporting positions. I've found that its tough (for me at least) to get players attempting through balls when I want them too. In my head I want them to retain possession as much as possible until we get to the final third, then hit someone breaking beyond the beyond the defense.

I noticed that my defenders were still playing a lot of long balls/by passing my CMs even with play out of defense (and shorter/few risk PIs checked). Added a DLP(d) and am hoping they use him as an outlet and he can pick out the more forward players. Also hoping he provides the pivot/recycling of possession that you alluded to. 

I've been attempting to play with 'hold position' PI for my center mids so they stay back more in both the 442 and the 433 - but sometimes wonder if thats why my forward seems so isolated that I don't have any center mids moving up to support him. Granted I don't really want them near the box since they seem incapable of hitting the net when they shoot, and I would rather my forward link up with the other attacking players. 

Made the adjustment on 442 of Wa on one side with IWs on the other - it looks a little bit more like what I was hoping for, but still run into some congestion at the top of the box. Some of the passing moves haven't quite connected, but I'm chalking that up to player ability. 

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, dang3rouspeach said:

awesome, thanks for the reply. definitely gives me something to work with. 

I'm a little fuzzy on how the individual mentality affects movement - build up. So that gives me something to look into. Thought I needed aggressive mentality to encourage runs in behind. 

Will take the shorter passing off and see how it goes, was thinking that would encourage players to move into supporting positions. I've found that its tough (for me at least) to get players attempting through balls when I want them too.

Passing distance doesn't really affect how players move.  Individual mentality will make the player riskier in all elements of there play.  Role+duties will set how players combine whilst the overall mentality will affect them as a team with TIs also changing the teams focus.

1 hour ago, dang3rouspeach said:

In my head I want them to retain possession as much as possible until we get to the final third, then hit someone breaking beyond the beyond the defense.

This I think is one of the biggest mistakes people make in FM.  Your effectively letting teams get back and organized, pushing there defence deeper and then expecting to play behind them in that reduced space?  Your more likely to have success with penetrating dribbling or passes to feet after pulling defenders out of position than a pass into space / risk pass.

You can of course balance possession and penetration by managing the overall risk taking, individual risk taking and your defensive plan.  But expecting lots of penetration plus lots of possession really requires quality players able to make good decisions and execute.

1 hour ago, dang3rouspeach said:

I noticed that my defenders were still playing a lot of long balls/by passing my CMs even with play out of defense (and shorter/few risk PIs checked). Added a DLP(d) and am hoping they use him as an outlet and he can pick out the more forward players. Also hoping he provides the pivot/recycling of possession that you alluded to. 

Even if the defenders are told to play as safe as possible, if they don't see (vision etc) someone to pass to or panic (composure etc) they'll hoof it.  Remember to analyse why something happens, its not always tactic, it could be due to the players attributes / traits, also consider how often it happens or if its against certain opposition systems.  You might make things generally worse to fix something that wasn't tactic or was a rare occurrence in the grand scheme of things.

1 hour ago, dang3rouspeach said:

I've been attempting to play with 'hold position' PI for my center mids so they stay back more in both the 442 and the 433 - but sometimes wonder if thats why my forward seems so isolated that I don't have any center mids moving up to support him. Granted I don't really want them near the box since they seem incapable of hitting the net when they shoot, and I would rather my forward link up with the other attacking players. 

When is the forward isolated? When he receives the ball? After he's chased it or dribbled it?

Hold Position will reduce forward runs, this could limit advanced passing options, they'll still end up around the box though as its not a "position deeper/higher", thats more role+duty (and mentality) dependent.

1 hour ago, dang3rouspeach said:

Made the adjustment on 442 of Wa on one side with IWs on the other - it looks a little bit more like what I was hoping for, but still run into some congestion at the top of the box. Some of the passing moves haven't quite connected, but I'm chalking that up to player ability. 

If the player is doing what you've instructed tactically but fails to execute then yes its player ability.  That doesn't mean you can't do anything tactically, could changing a different player of created space or occupied a defender?  Could you of been more forward thinking and attacked quicker before opponents got organized?

4141 DM Wide is quite defensive in nature, to attack quickly with diagonals against teams who are defensive against you will need the front 5 to be able to get forward (tactically) and the attributes to do so quickly (quickness, anticipation etc). FBs will be more of a plan B since if you wait for them to overlap defences should of got back by then so now your looking at overloading, switch of play or just putting a cross in.

Who is congesting the edge of the box? Is the W-At on the side of the DLF-Su or AF-At?  The IW-Su next to the CM-Su?  Are plays combining with varied movement in the same area or actually congesting it and not giving different options or creating a overload?  Could this be reduced by taking risks with the ball earlier?

[s0ni42]

On the 433, I’ve got a few questions (may have been covered). Why do you have FB on attack instead of WB? Creating a lot of extra distance. Would suggest moving him up WB since his primary responsibility will be providing your attack with width, not defense. You can help you center halves by making you DMF more concerned with cover using Anchor Man or half back. This will help your defensive spine remain more organized. DMF May chase a bit too much IMO.

I’d put at least on of you IFs on attack, if not both. F9 and your attacking fullback (wing back) should be ample support to arrive in final third. 

I would consider using BBM in place if CMA to avoid this player running on top of F9. BBM should arrive late, allowing more effective, organized buildup.

I would also consider swapping BBM (if implemented) with CMS to be more balanced. Placing him on same side as attacking wing back could expose that center half too often.

Finally, I would strongly suggest reading and experimenting with your cover/defend roles. I personally would simplify as I find the right tactic will pull those guys all out of whack and disorganize for easy opportunities. I might even suggest a no nonsense cd in the right side.

 

[dang3rouspeach]

10 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I really don't see how the forward is isolated unless he's setting off on a run with the ball like you've told him rather than holding it up, could you show some examples?  Is it just defenders hoofing it when pressured? The gk since you haven't given distribution instructions?

heres the 433 forward getting isolated. Have IF(s) on the left who's in the cluster of 4 guys (DM, and two CM(s)). The wide guy on the left is WB(a). playing on balanced mentality, with standard passing/tempo. Forward is DLF, but sits stationary in between the two CBs. This scenario was after my team won the ball back in our defensive third and completed 4-5 passes between those 4 players. 

The 442 has had some similar moments where the two forwards sit level with each other (even though I have DLF(s) and P/AF) while the mids pass back forth and to each other and then kick it long (balanced/standard/standard). 

I see a ton of space in the right center of the field - i'd like one of my CMs to occupy that and then he could collect the ball and suddenly would have 3v3 rushing towards goal. Or I would like the forward to check into that space (either draw a defender with him or turn and do something). 

My forward seems too isolated from anyone else to really link up with anyone. He has some pace/accel/off the ball (15+). He had 21 goals in championship and most of them seemed to be from long through balls.

[pheelf]

8 hours ago, dang3rouspeach said:

heres the 433 forward getting isolated. Have IF(s) on the left who's in the cluster of 4 guys (DM, and two CM(s)). The wide guy on the left is WB(a). playing on balanced mentality, with standard passing/tempo. Forward is DLF, but sits stationary in between the two CBs. This scenario was after my team won the ball back in our defensive third and completed 4-5 passes between those 4 players. 

The 442 has had some similar moments where the two forwards sit level with each other (even though I have DLF(s) and P/AF) while the mids pass back forth and to each other and then kick it long (balanced/standard/standard). 

I see a ton of space in the right center of the field - i'd like one of my CMs to occupy that and then he could collect the ball and suddenly would have 3v3 rushing towards goal. Or I would like the forward to check into that space (either draw a defender with him or turn and do something). 

My forward seems too isolated from anyone else to really link up with anyone. He has some pace/accel/off the ball (15+). He had 21 goals in championship and most of them seemed to be from long through balls.

Did you manage to progress the attack and work the ball forward from this point and if so did the Deep Lying Forward stay in that position (on the shoulder of the defenders) throughout? Also if you look at his actual positioning on the pitch I'd say that is actually fairly deep (in the hole like an attacking midfielder) it appears that he is higher because the oppositions defensive line is pushed up fairly high which if you think about it is actually pretty clever from the AI. They are compressing the space that the DLF wants to use to the point it is non-existent, in instances like this using a striker role that wants to run in behind and picking a player that is quick would be devastating to their defence because of the all the space they are giving you in behind their back line.

In some sense, the AI is reacting to the fact there is no threat of a player trying to run in behind. All the players are set up to play in front of the defensive line.

I'm not entirely sure about this (hopefully someone who is more knowledgeable on this can chime in) but I think that the movement (dropping off the front) only gets triggered when the ball passes a certain point on the pitch. It is entirely possible that the reason why you never see the striker drop off the front is that the ball gets punted long before that trigger point on the pitch.

Looking at that screenshot it is not only your striker that is isolated but your entire right wing who aren't contributing to the attack. You're not using the full width of the pitch even though your wide players are set up to do so. I agree with you that your RCM should be looking to attack that space but if given a support duty, he won't do that and instead will be attracted to the ball like a magnet to offer support to progress the attack. Putting him on an attack duty would be helpful here as he would be getting forward to support the lone striker more. 

There are some confirmed issues with striker movement in the ME which may be contributing to this also but as there is nothing we can do about that but wait until it gets fixed all we can do is try to create coherent tactics and hope that the ME comes towards us and begins to reward well thought out and logical setups.

[summatsupeer]

Is that the same 4141 DM Wide but a DLF-Su instead of F9-Su? Any other changes?

Even if you have a player in that area, I cant see how he'd get the ball in that specific example without an exceptional pass from the LB.  I'd say your transition issue started earlier so trying to fix at this point is too late.

I have no issue with the ST, he has no partner to threaten opponents D-line with a run in behind so they can pressure him.

Regarding getting players into that AMCR area its either the MCR or AMR who should be using it. That is quite deep for a CM-A to come when on positive mentality, even if only still transitioning.  Does that player have traits like Comes Deep to Collect Ball?

Maybe try telling the AMR to sit narrower and see if he's more available, roaming could take this even further or needs to be an AP so he comes to collect even more.

[dang3rouspeach]

3 hours ago, pheelf said:

Did you manage to progress the attack and work the ball forward from this point and if so did the Deep Lying Forward stay in that position (on the shoulder of the defenders) throughout? Also if you look at his actual positioning on the pitch I'd say that is actually fairly deep (in the hole like an attacking midfielder) it appears that he is higher because the oppositions defensive line is pushed up fairly high which if you think about it is actually pretty clever from the AI.

Attack didn't progress much - most of the game looked like kind of like this where the striker just kind of chilled. Interesting point on his depth, I always thought it was relative to the defensive line (so if they pushed up high he dropped even deeper, never actually read anything to support that thought, just how I interpreted it/would have implemented the instruction IRL). 

30 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Is that the same 4141 DM Wide but a DLF-Su instead of F9-Su? Any other changes?

AMR was also changed to W(s) - might try changing him to AP(s). Passing/tempo was ticked to standard/standard. On the left I have FB(a) and right was FB(s). I ticked the CMR(s) with gets further forward PI, but havent noticed a ton of difference in his positioning, and in these buildups he's still stuck back next to the other two. Might try toggling him to CM(a). 

 

52 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I have no issue with the ST, he has no partner to threaten opponents D-line with a run in behind so they can pressure him.

right - I'm semi okay with him being isolated / occupying two defenders, it just seems that the rest of my attackers (AML/AMR) also have managed to find themselves completely isolated from support play.

[summatsupeer]

Its probably easier to post an image of your tactic when you change it. Thats 4+ different roles/duties from what you posted so nothing like it. Don't change too much at same time, fix one issue at a time, if what you change doesn't do on the pitch what you thought then revert it.

Whilst adding a Get Forward PI will make the player make more runs, his mentality will still be the same so is trying to provide support rather than take risks and getting in front if the ball.

If the MCR is suitable to get forward I'd try that with the winger.  Maybe tell the DR to sit narrower to help transition+cover them.  Not knowing the players makes it hard to know what fits them, plus unclear what your tactic even is currently.

[dang3rouspeach]

5 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

plus unclear what your tactic even is currently.

Sorry, I went through a bunch of changes which seemed to only create less offense. Here is where I'm currently at with the 433. 

Lost a heart breaker 2-3 to chelsea last game (team somehow blew a 3v1 counter attack). 

DLF(s) finally was dropping into space which was nice to see on some of the attacks, he just happened to drop right to chelseas DM. Switched him to poacher half way through and he ended up with two goals. Got on the end of a nice cross/through ball from 30 yards out that he met on the pk spot. 

Have toggled tempo to slightly lower (thought that would help my teams general poor decision making) since I noticed a lot of passes going randomly into the middle of nowhere or out of bounds. 

20 hours ago, s0ni42 said:

On the 433, I’ve got a few questions (may have been covered). Why do you have FB on attack instead of WB? Creating a lot of extra distance. Would suggest moving him up WB since his primary responsibility will be providing your attack with width, not defense. You can help you center halves by making you DMF more concerned with cover using Anchor Man or half back. This will help your defensive spine remain more organized. DMF May chase a bit too much IMO.

I’d put at least on of you IFs on attack, if not both. F9 and your attacking fullback (wing back) should be ample support to arrive in final third. 

I would consider using BBM in place if CMA to avoid this player running on top of F9. BBM should arrive late, allowing more effective, organized buildup.

I would also consider swapping BBM (if implemented) with CMS to be more balanced. Placing him on same side as attacking wing back could expose that center half too often.

Finally, I would strongly suggest reading and experimenting with your cover/defend roles. I personally would simplify as I find the right tactic will pull those guys all out of whack and disorganize for easy opportunities. I might even suggest a no nonsense cd in the right side.

 

- Will try the WB(a). FB(a) usually got forward enough. My team is bad at crossing (i think both DL/R are 11s.. and my forwards are both better suited for low crosses/not aerial). 

-BtBM, have a guy who has all the attributes for it, never seems to get involved in the game really for me, attacks usually aren't sustained long enough for him to get into position.

- I do like the HB role (in previous tactics/teams). Will see how that works here. I don't notice a ton of difference between the different DM roles though. 

 

The 442 was starting to work sorta like I wanted it to, but then one of my forwards broke his foot or something dumb like that. So I'm back to working on single striker stuff. 

Thanks for all the continued input. Slowly starting to understand some of the concepts.

[summatsupeer]

Seems a lot of changes from what you have, especially with the same players?  But if its playing more how you want thats good.

11 minutes ago, dang3rouspeach said:

DLF(s) finally was dropping into space which was nice to see on some of the attacks, he just happened to drop right to chelseas DM. Switched him to poacher half way through and he ended up with two goals. Got on the end of a nice cross/through ball from 30 yards out that he met on the pk spot. 

The thing here is if he's dropping and the DM is free, could you be doing something with your CM pair to try and draw him out and get the DLF open?  CM-S and AP-S is quite a patient pairing who don't really look to take risks with there positioning to get forward.

[s0ni42]

2 hours ago, dang3rouspeach said:

 

- Will try the WB(a). FB(a) usually got forward enough.

Less about getting forward, but trying to tighten up his area of responsibility 

[pheelf]

16 hours ago, dang3rouspeach said:

 

 

I really think you need to consider putting an attack duty in your central midfield in order to offer closer support to your lone striker and to add an attacking pivot besides, you have adequate cover provided by the DM which allows you to let him off the leash so to speak. Another issue you might have is the lack of a number 9 in this system. DLF(S) & IF (S) are both number 10 creative type roles and a winger isn't a striker. Also if you want to whip balls into the box you need players who are looking to run in behind to meet the crosses but you have none of those sorts of players in the team.

I may have written something incorrect earlier, the more reserved support duty central midfielder should be on the side with your IF with the attack duty central midfielder on the same side as your winger.

You are really close to a good tactic here just a few changes and you'll be there.

All the best

[dang3rouspeach]

On 20/12/2018 at 08:22, pheelf said:

I may have written something incorrect earlier, the more reserved support duty central midfielder should be on the side with your IF with the attack duty central midfielder on the same side as your winger.

can you elaborate on the thought process behind that? 

I thought you'd want a support player in proximity to your attacking to balance it? Or at least that was the logic I was using with IF(s) and WB(a) on the same side

[pheelf]

9 hours ago, dang3rouspeach said:

can you elaborate on the thought process behind that? 

I thought you'd want a support player in proximity to your attacking to balance it? Or at least that was the logic I was using with IF(s) and WB(a) on the same side

Sure, my thought process is guided by the space which the players want to attack.

If you have an IF(S) next to a CM(A) they will both want to attack centrally in the final third which isn't a problem if you want to overload the central areas but isn't helpful if you want to stretch the play over the full width of the pitch. Whereas if you have a W(S) next to a CM(A) they will both look to attack different spaces, the winger will attack wide with the central midfielder attacking centrally.

In addition to that, the idea is that their movement creates space for the other player. For e.g. you gave the example of using a WB(A) behind a IF(S). The IF(S) runs inside should drag the fullback narrower to come and challenge him, this movement then creates more space out wide for the overlapping WB(A).

Having a CM(S) next to the IF(S) is less of an issue as even though they want to attack the same space because of the separation on the pitch (IF is more advanced) the times they will attack that space will be more staggered.