World Cup 2018 Tactical Interpretations

[blehq12]

On 16/07/2018 at 01:31, iloveyouknap said:

With a france tactic? Can you share?

I actually experimented Kante as a carrilero but realised he couldn't be placed in the DM strata, hence I reversed to a BWM (s). Anyway, here's the tactic: 

[Joey Numbaz]

On 12/07/2018 at 03:33, denen123 said:

Still believe matuidi was a cross between DW/WM. Simply because he regularly occupies the wings and marks out the opposition. He comes narrow, occasionally, I agree. But WM & DW are coded to move narrow during play, so its still ideal.

Sounds like Matuidi is the Carrilero to me. 

Matuidi's position in the image below seems like in the Carrilero position to me as well.

His natural position in the game is MC/Carrilero also, not that that matters a ton, but it definitely pushes me more in that direction. It also helps show the French narrow/compactness in defense.

*********

Here's my take on the France v. Belgium tactic. Spent the last 4 hours working through this.

https://spielverlagerung.com/2018/07/13/semifinals-france-1-0-belgium/ 

Some quotes from the link and the tactical choices that fit them:

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With France’s deep block, the front three dropped off of the centre backs in preference of covering midfield passing options as opposed to proactively pressing during Belgium’s first phases. This 4-3-3-0 was heavily stacked in the centre of midfield, limiting the exposure to the ball of Belgium’s key players in highly beneficial areas.

Suggests Defensive mentality and strikerless formation

I think this would make Giroud an AMs or AMa, with hold up the ball and move into channels. The AMa naturally gets the gets further forward instruction, and has a more appropriate mentality IMO, so I think I lean towards that. A shadow striker doesn't hold up the ball and closes down way too much. Hold up the ball is part of Target Man, Deep Lying Forward, or Defensive Forward the other options if you don't think this was Strikerless. Move into channels is pretty much what those arrows on the diagram show.

From the Spielverlagerung France preview:

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Antoine Griezmann acts as a 10, drifting into spaces in search of the ball as the link between the midfielders and forwards, typically between the opposition lines as well. He has almost total freedom in this team, meaning France is organized behind him in a way to cover for Griezmann if he does not protect the ball.

Griezmann seems like a pretty classic Trequartista in the AMCL position. No closing down and total freedom.

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From the left side, Vertonghen was able to play diagonally toward the wing into Hazard, as France’s defensive positional focus was just central enough so that both Mbappe and Pavard did not have suitable access to Hazard when on the edge of the touchline.

Pavard and Mbappé get sits narrower.

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Considering Pogba’s foreshadowing of the man-orientations on Fellaini in these opening stages,

Pogba gets mark tighter, and man mark on MCL (depending on opponent).

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Considering his [Hazard's] decision making is world class when surrounded by multiple defenders, the onus was on Varane and Umtiti to cope with the subsequent actions that came after Hazard’s penetration, successful in their timing and application of clearances, even if it appeared precarious in the penalty area.

Sounds like both Varane and Umtiti are CDd with closing down less so far (the article doesn't discuss their build up play which makes me think it was pretty standard), doesn't really suggest cover or stopper. Closing down less isn't an option for the CDd in a defensive mentality. The default is "much less" with a tiny bar.

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The right side of Belgium’s attack took a different disposition in terms of the collectivism of the tactics. Alderweireld more frequently dribbled out of the defensive line, causing Belgium’s attack to become predominately focused down this side. The circulation amongst Chaldi, De Bruyne, and Witsel against France’s passive block had considerable success when it was exclusively the three of them. With France wanting to press in the wings at first – Hernandez closed off the halfspaces in isolated situations to attempt to win the ball during individual duels – Chadli was able to get past Hernandez to put crosses into the penalty area.

That sounds like sit narrower and close down more for Hernandez. The passive block has me thinking Stay on Feet. In a defensive mentality closing down is very low already. So I don't think the team instruction is needed. But this reinforces the choice of defensive mentality for me.

As the half progressed Belgium pushed hard attacking up their right.

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With Lukaku moving into the right halfspace as a possible bumper to the structure between Chadli and De Bruyne, so followed the man-orientation of Umtiti and a minor relocation of the remainder of the defensive line. This movement occurred as Hernandez moved to pressure Chaldi, rather than operating there as a starting reference. An action intended to promote combination play and more possible methods of breaking through France actually had the opposite outcome.

That still sounds like sit narrower and close down more for Hernandez maybe much more? I'll play it conservative. Could be a man marking instruction here. But that would drag him too far out of position. So no.

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Matuidi from here functioned in a man-oriented sense with De Bruyne, and Chadli dealt with by Hernandez correspondingly.

Matuidi man marks the DeBruyne position (AMR).

Now we get to Kanté:

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A note about Kante, in what was perhaps his best match thus far for France. During this match, Kante positioned himself extremely well relative to his teammates, taking up positional blends between spots where he concurrently prevents dangerous balls being played in between his team’s lines or gaps between defenders, having access to 2-3 passing at once to either pressure or at least be the second man in coverage/pressing, and yet located himself in a spot where he invites the opponent to play the most simple easiest pass. And as the opponent plays it, Kante anticipated it with incredible speed and intercepts it.

So we need a guy in the DM strata that has great positioning and anticipation. That description above does not sound anything like a ball-winning defender to me.

I think we need a role there with closing down sometimes (middlish of the bar, whatever PI that means), who isn't one of the playmakers. That leaves an Anchor Man or a Defensive Midfielder. I think the final answer will depend on what he does when the team has the ball. Stay tuned.

https://strikerless.com/2018/05/23/understanding-roles-in-football-manager-and-real-life-part-2/

That is the great guide posted on strikerless that describes the positioning and movement of different roles. Both A and DM look an awful lot like Kanté's movement in the diagram above.

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As the half went on, Hazard began to take up these central positions with Fellaini moving wide left, presumably to get Hazard’s dribbling ability in more dangerous areas to fashion opportunities. A solution that could’ve worked for Belgium was to simply have Hazard move inside as Fellaini moved higher. Considering France’s already deep block ...

While Belgium’s attack started brightly, France were shrewd in how they adjusted both individual tendencies and group tactics to nullify their opponents. Belgium’s collective attacking was a mixture of ambitious and somehow stale, breaking down once they met the deeper layers of France’s shield.

 

Deep block = Defensive Mentality. Still nothing to say otherwise here. They aren't just saying deep line. They are saying a deep block. The block involves where you start to close down, etc. Per Lines and Diamonds a Defensive Mentality has a Low Block and the Pressure Intensity is to Contain Outside the Defensive Third, with Cautious Tackling Intensity. That sounds pretty much exactly how France played this game. I could see going with deeper line, but I don't think it fits here.

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Completing the puzzle, De Bruyne stepped higher to join Lukaku in situations where France preferred their left side to build up, getting Lucas Hernandez in higher positions in the process.

Not sure of the role yet. But Get Further Forward needs to be either a PI or built into the role. Leaning WBs which gets further forward by default and has a lower mentality than a FBa.

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Not to be overshadowed, another notable priority for Belgium was the pressing on the wings. Akin to their opponents, their narrow defensive structure provided ample space for France to pass toward their wide options. Avenues were then available for the fullbacks to become more involved in attacking developments. From the centre backs, these passes into Pavard however were readily anticipated by Vertonghen, using the possession of fullbacks moving forwards as a cue to step up as fullbacks to intercept the ball in its flight if possible. Lucas Hernandez, superior in his timing of these movements, evaded these by starting runs later and moving into mixed spaces between lines during the pass rather than before it is played. France’s attack composition, as unsystematic as it can be, followed the trendline for the last few matches. Pavard and Mbappe working in tandem on the right, with Hernandez being the primary source of width on the left.

A lot to unpack there.

Hernandez is definitely a WB not a FB (role, not position) now, as the "primary source of width" on the left. This reinforces my position of Griezmann as a Treq in the AMCL position, not out on the wing. Same with Matuidi as a Carrilero.

I think the TI Pass Into Space is pretty appropriate here as well.

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With these tendencies in mind, the Belgian central midfielders were instrumental figures to limiting the influence of these wide players. Dembele and Witsel frequently stepped toward wide areas as supporting pressure for the fullbacks to quell the dribbling of Mbappe and Hernandez respectively (or whoever attacked down the left side), who restricted their influences adequately in these situations.

I think WBs with Get Further Forward and Dribble More (in addition to Close Down More) which we gave him earlier describes Hernandez better than a WBa which has Dribble more as default, due to the lower mentality. But maybe the higher mentality is more appropriate? There is nothing about him crossing from the byline or pushing way up (look at his icon's arrow in the graphic), which makes me think not a CWB. Before I get to Mbappé (who also needs Dribble More) a little more detail:

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Despite this stability that comes with the 3-2 structure, France were still able to break through on the counter for a multitude of reasons. Both Witsel and Dembele each took up suboptimal distances in their rest defense in relation to each other, leaving a sizable space centrally for players to run between and pick up the ball. This originated from one of them moving toward the wing to pressure the ball without the following shift, leaving France’s attackers with space to break.

France’s counterattacking was also boosted because of their organization in their deep block. Since players were so close together in their compact shape, once France won the ball, they had more options nearby to navigate Belgium’s counterpressure. France could play quick passing sequences and beat their opponents through these spaces

 

I have Mbappé as a IWa which already has Dribble More by default. Yes, I have him in the MR position, not AMR. His runs came from deep, and the overall shape of France was more compact. This allows you to have a Structured shape (less risk in defense) while having the players still reasonably close together at the start of the transition. Obviously more references to the Deep Block and Defensive Mentality in this section as well, which is the main theme of the entire article. Quick passing sequences? Much Higher tempo. Which still isn't crazy high tempo when playing on Defensive.

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Lastly, the ability for France’s dribblers to break through the initial counterpressing was integral to their success in going forward during these moments. In the instances where Pogba, Kante, or Matuidi were able to resist the first pressure players, Mbappe and Giroud were able to move beyond the defense and push them toward their own goal. After these players were beat, they subsequently had more space to move into and attack, leading to several promising counter attacking opportunities during the match. After three high potential counters conceded, Belgium was resorted to solve this situation through tactical fouling, unable to contain the individual qualities of France’s players on the break.

Run at Defense - however, this only applies to ST, AMC, and wide forwards (Griezmann and Giroud). But Mbappé's role has it by default already. The midfield trio will need this as a PI. Matuidi is a Carrilero, so he can't get it, but he also can't get dribble less so he's fine.

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France’s counterpressing was also a marvel in its own right. They were remarkably fast to apply pressure to the ball in the first place, yet finding a great balance between getting players surrounding the ball and cutting off possible passages out through their cover shadows. Paul Pogba, in a consummate overall performance, was the standout player for France in this component. When also supported by one or two attackers higher and Kante behind, even the most talented players in the world would not be able to protect the ball.

Pogba, who we haven't gotten to yet, is a Segundo Volante attack as DMR with closing down more. He also gets Dribble More, as well as shoot more often and get further forward by default. We gave him mark tighter and mark the MCL (depending on the other side of course) earlier.

If we want Kanté to dribble more, we've decided his role, DMs with Dribble More and Close Down More. I could live with Close Down Sometimes here as well. If you don't want him to dribble more, an Anchor Man with close down more is fine. Definitely would switch to this once you want to close the game down with a lead.

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But France were savvy to apply heavy man orientations on the nearest Belgian player as the rest of the team counterpressed, so even if they were able to escape the first bit of pressure, France could anticipate the next pass and possibly intercept it or retrieve the ball if it there was a technical error.

In [sic] was in these pivotal moments that France created a palpable quality difference in terms of their team tactical implementations. While this match was interesting in that both teams counterpressed very high up the pitch, France were much superior in the organization and application not only in their attacking through Belgium’s initial pressure, but also in the defensive moments of the match that were crucial to limiting the Belgian star talent.

Not really sure of how to replicate this part. Also, earlier the article mentioned:

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With France’s deep block, the front three dropped off of the centre backs in preference of covering midfield passing options as opposed to proactively pressing during Belgium’s first phases. 

I think the way to do this is go with PIs to close down more or close down much more for Giroud and/or Mbappé OR to have OIs to close down always on the opposition's central players from central midfield back to the keeper. Since we've already got some pretty specific instructions for the midfielders in terms of marking and closing down, I'm going to avoid messing around with the OIs. Giroud gets Closing Down More which still isn't a lot of closing down. I think I'm going to leave Mbappé on sometimes.

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Belgium swapped the positions of Hazard and Fellaini more vividly at the start of the second half, bringing Hazard to the ten as discussed earlier. However, with Pogba intensifying his man-orientations onto Fellaini, Belgium’s attack appeared promising to get Hazard into more influential spaces. In addition, Hazard’s deeper positioning would better preoccupy Kante in France’s defensive structure, preventing his Chelsea teammate from chasing the ball at such a high rate, and thus limiting his potential influence on transitions and ball recoveries for his side.

Pogba needs to Man Mark the most advanced CM, CMR or whoever is playing the "Fellaini" role. As we said earlier.

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With the introduction of Dries Mertens, Martinez altered Belgium’s structure from the 4-2-3-1 base found in the first hour of the game to a 3-4-3 ...

With France’s ever so disciplined unit in defense, Belgium’s team became more fragmented as injury time beckoned. As Giroud and co. focused more and more defensively, the likes of De Bruyne could not manage much of the ball in higher lines of the field, so they dropped back to retrieve the ball from the defense and playmak. This tendency exacerbated as time went on, eventually creating a sharp division between players attempting to remain in the positional blueprint and those abandoning the plan to do whatever they possibly could for themselves to get into the final.

France were able to absorb these moments of slight promise of the Belgians, without making any substitutions in the process. A puzzling change that Martinez made with around fifteen minutes left was taking off Fellaini for Carrasco, presumably to provide another dribbler to perhaps unlock the deep block after seeing the aerial efforts not work. With close chances on set pieces and some France defensive shifts, the final stretches of the game were standard and predictable given the strengths of Belgium’s physical players, the collective strength of France to not concede in the tournament once in the lead, and Martinez’s propensity to play more direct when his team is losing in elimination settings.

As for the French time wasting toward the end of the match, it has been an integral part of their campaign so far. Don’t hate the players, hate the game.

No real adjustments for closing out the game after the switch of formations. I guess you could maybe go to Contain towards the very end, with maximum Time Wasting and Be More Disciplined.

Things that weren't touched on?

Pavard's role. His icon in the drawing looks like a FBs with Runs Wide with Ball. We already gave him Sits Narrower. I tend to not use WB/CWB role with a player above him on the wing as an MR or AMR.

Giroud's role. The only time he's mentioned, outside of the closing down of the game is:

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In the instances where Pogba, Kante, or Matuidi were able to resist the first pressure players, Mbappe and Giroud were able to move beyond the defense and push them toward their own goal.

I guess I'll stick with AMa there. Maybe drop Hold Up Ball, while keeping Move Into Channels? The one thing that gives me pause is that in the game, he is only rated as a striker and his best role is Target Man. He isn't even orange as an AMC. Move him up to Target Man if you want I guess.

If you want to remove my man marking instructions with OIs for tight marking those players it would probably work too.

Putting it all together finally:

I am very open to suggestions here. Maybe I misinterpreted something in the article. Or glossed over a key sentence. I'm still kind of new to all of this.

 

[Joey Numbaz]

I like to minimize team and player instructions as much as possible, so I tried to do my best with roles that had the options I wanted by default. But there was only so much I could do there. Also open to suggestions in that vein as well.

[Joey Numbaz]

I guess another option would be push Griezmann and Giroud both up to the Striker strata, but it doesn't seem like that is what France did, based on my reading of this. I may try to watch the game again tonight and see if I notice anything missing. Like specific players who pass short or direct, etc.

Also it's easy to forget, but this was a 1-0 game where they scored on a corner, had 5 shots on goal and 36% possession. Granted they outshot Belgium 19-9, but only 5 out of 19 shots on goal (one of those was the corner that went in) and 36% possession. It was lay back, if you win the ball, push it forward quickly, shoot if you have anything possible and regroup. And don't give them anything at all in the final third. Which is why Belgium had just 9 shots and 3 on goal.

Also, Kanté had one tackle won in the entire game and one foul. He definitely wasn't a ball winning midfielder in this game. Matuidi had 6 tackles won and no fouls committed, Pogba 2 tackles won and 2 fouls. Kanté also wasn't fouled, so maybe he wasn't dribbling that much after all. I'm starting to think more Anchor Man for him. Which jives well with the Spielverlagerung icon too.

EDIT: He wasn't an Anchor Man. I've been looking through the detailed stats and heat maps, he was a lot more involved in the offense than an anchor man would be. I'll have a lot more written up on this later or tomorrow.

I guess I should have looked at those stats before finishing my post.

I would keep the high closing down on Matuidi, remove it from Pogba and Kanté. I would have Kanté and Matuidi ease of tackles also.

[Joey Numbaz]

Kanté did have 44 completed passes, most on the team. Griezmann 34, Pogba 32, Mbappé 28, Matuidi 22 were the other top guys.

Is that enough that we should consider Kanté a deep lying playmaker defend instead? Or is that a natural function of the way they played and his position in the middle of it all?

[Joey Numbaz]

So much to unpack from this great stat pack (what I was looking at before was basic): https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/match/300331531/#match-info

I need to watch the game again, but I'll do the stats/heat maps first. Let's see how this compares with the Spielverlagerung article.

Passing Stats

First observations, then I'll get specific on some players.

Kanté definitely wasn't a playmaker. Received passes: Pavard 36, Mbappé 35, Kanté 31, Pogba 30, Varane 27, Umtiti 27, Griezmann 27, Matuidi/Tolisso 27, Hernandez 25, Giroud/Nzonzi 22, Lloris 7.

That is some pretty even distribution there. About the only thing of note is that they built up along the right more, with Pavard/Mbappé getting the most passes and Hernandez nearly the least.

Heat maps and Average Positions 

My guess wasn't awful. That being said the every 15 minute average positions and just watching the first few minutes of the game show that I should move Mbappé up to the AMR strata. There's a reasonable case for moving Giroud up to a deep-lying forward with closing down less also. I am comfortable with the midfield choices still. I think this looks better, until they score anyway.

After they score, check out the second half 15 minute heat maps:

Notice how Griezmann is basically in the same spot (on average, he's moving all over the place) but from 60-90 Giroud's average position is a little deeper. You could probably call him a defensive forward on support at that point.

 

If you want to call Matuidi a WMs sitting narrow and Hernandez a FBs instead of CAR/WBs that's probably just as close to correct as what I chose.

One thing I've found looking at this stuff, there's a lot of grey. It's not all black and white.

Matuidi's individual heat map. Is this a Carrilero or a WM?

Kante's heat map:

Also look at how Griezmann was all over the place.

 

I wrote a bunch more, but it's incomplete and I don't know that I'd have the time to clean it up. You see one thing and you are sure that's how he played, but then you see something else and it contradicts it. Oh well, it's a fun exercise going through it all. And this is just one game!

The other thing I've noticed is these teams tinker a ton. You have 7 games in a month for some of these teams and every one is different. No wonder plug and play doesn't really work in FM :-)

[denen123]

53 minutes ago, Joey Numbaz said:

So much to unpack from this great stat pack (what I was looking at before was basic): https://www.fifa.com/worldcup/matches/match/300331531/#match-info

I need to watch the game again, but I'll do the stats/heat maps first. Let's see how this compares with the Spielverlagerung article.

Passing Stats

First observations, then I'll get specific on some players.

Kanté definitely wasn't a playmaker. Received passes: Pavard 36, Mbappé 35, Kanté 31, Pogba 30, Varane 27, Umtiti 27, Griezmann 27, Matuidi/Tolisso 27, Hernandez 25, Giroud/Nzonzi 22, Lloris 7.

That is some pretty even distribution there. About the only thing of note is that they built up along the right more, with Pavard/Mbappé getting the most passes and Hernandez nearly the least.

Heat maps and Average Positions 

My guess wasn't awful. That being said the every 15 minute average positions and just watching the first few minutes of the game show that I should move Mbappé up to the AMR strata. There's a reasonable case for moving Giroud up to a deep-lying forward with closing down less also. I am comfortable with the midfield choices still. I think this looks better, until they score anyway.

After they score, check out the second half 15 minute heat maps:

Notice how Griezmann is basically in the same spot (on average, he's moving all over the place) but from 60-90 Giroud's average position is a little deeper. You could probably call him a defensive forward on support at that point.

 

If you want to call Matuidi a WMs sitting narrow and Hernandez a FBs instead of CAR/WBs that's probably just as close to correct as what I chose.

One thing I've found looking at this stuff, there's a lot of grey. It's not all black and white.

Matuidi's individual heat map. Is this a Carrilero or a WM?

Kante's heat map:

Also look at how Griezmann was all over the place.

 

I wrote a bunch more, but it's incomplete and I don't know that I'd have the time to clean it up. You see one thing and you are sure that's how he played, but then you see something else and it contradicts it. Oh well, it's a fun exercise going through it all. And this is just one game!

The other thing I've noticed is these teams tinker a ton. You have 7 games in a month for some of these teams and every one is different. No wonder plug and play doesn't really work in FM :-)

I really appreciate that you've got a good overview of how they played(even though its just one of their games). Still impressive. Would love to see how your matches go.

I considered it a striker less in one of my initial posts. But i think Giroud played as a DF. 

Suggestions:

Maybe move Treq to the left so he plays off the striker & not congest the area or offset the strikers play while doing his own work.

Also, I do get why Matuidi would be a carrilero. But I think griezman & kante's positions can be left to anyone's interpretation. Also, I see why you'll see it as Defensive mentality(I remember disputing against Control). But I still feel its Counter.

Good luck.

[Joey Numbaz]

35 minutes ago, denen123 said:

Would love to see how your matches go.

I am at the beginning of training for 2020-21 now with Everton. So this is a perfect time for me to figure out a system of 3 tactics based on situation/opponent to train and go with. It's so hard to decide who to try to replicate. I have versatile players so I have a lot of options. I'd love to try to play like Brazil or France, or even Croatia (I just signed a 34-year old Modric on a free, he's still good though less mobile and can tutor).

Too many options! I change my tactics constantly. I don't have the energy for multiple saves and I get bored or inspired by a new idea too often.

France plays so conservative you really need players like Griezmann, Pogba and Mbappé to score some goals I'd think. I've got Pulisic, Milinkovic-Savic, Sandro (and Dolberg/Pellegri to play the Giroud role), but I'm not sure if that's good enough. I'd have no problem winning games 1-0 all the time, but I'm afraid there might be too many 0-0s there.

Brazil are just solid all around. But they can be so good at not giving up goals because Neymar, Coutinho, Willian, and Marcelo up the left wing can make magic happen to score goals. I don't have anything close to Marcelo on the left wing and Coleman is aging on the right.

Croatia would be fun to try. They have a lot of talent, but aren't an all-star team. They play a solid system and showed some flexibility based on opponent. Plus I love Croatia, Drazen Petrovic was my favorite NBA player 25 years ago. So I root for them when they are doing well.

And Belgium, oh Belgium. That'd be fun, but not sure if I could handle winning (or worse, losing) games 3-2 and 4-3 all the time.

35 minutes ago, denen123 said:

Maybe move Treq to the left so he plays off the striker & not congest the area or offset the strikers play while doing his own work.

Yeah, that probably makes sense. The heat map shows him defending more to the left as well, then spreading anywhere as he moves forward.

35 minutes ago, denen123 said:

But i think Giroud played as a DF. 

Yeah, either DFs/DLFs or AMa (especially after they took the lead) could all be justified.

35 minutes ago, denen123 said:

Also, I see why you'll see it as Defensive mentality(I remember disputing against Control). But I still feel its Counter.

Sure, counter would work, you'd probably have to drop the line some and make some other tweaks?

I also wonder if Kanté/Pogba are on the DM strata or maybe should be in the CM strata with Pogba as either a B2B or a MEZs? Heck, I could see DM strata for all three as SV/DM/SV or CM as CAR/CM/B2B or B2B/CM/B2B. Matuidi is more to the left, Pogba more towards the center, so I do think CAR/DM/B2B makes the most sense. I'd need to watch the game again to see if Kanté was setting up more as a DM than an MC.

Sure looks like they are all on the same strata to me.

[Joey Numbaz]

More fun with numbers!

Check out the passing stats for France v. Belgium and Croatia v. Russia. I color coded them by position.

I picked out this game because Modric was amazing. Just bossing the midfield, the focus of the offense definitely a ball magnet, etc.

It's an interesting to contrast to France v. Belgium. The possession for Croatia was 64%, whereas France had the ball 40%. Croatia played 1.33 games too. But even per minute of possession, France passed 1.3x per minute of possession, Croatia passed 3.3x per minute of possession. Does that mean higher tempo for Croatia? Shorter passing? Both? Croatia attempted many more long passes, 38% more per pass than France though. These are interesting things to look at when trying to recreate a tactic!

Modic connected on 82% of his *long* passes. That seems kinda great.

The Croatia one is especially complicated by the fact the subs were position for position, there was some shifting with the subs like when Brozovic came on for Perisic, Brozovic became the holding midfielder and Rakitic moved up while the team overall shifted from a 4231 to a 4123.

You can multiply France's raw numbers by 2.13 get an apples to apples comparison in terms of per minute raw numbers.

 

 

[däkkä]

I missed (most of) the Belgium game due to travelling, but at least in the final France's defensive formation was clearly a 4-4-2 and that's what the formation in FM is, right? In build-up, Matuidi would move narrower and Mbappé would get forward resulting in a lopsided 4-3-3 shape. If we agree that formation is the fundamental defensive shape, then WMs and Wa are the obvious roles for Matuidi and Mbappé, respectively.

As for team instructions, I'd say exploit right flank throughout. There was a stark contrast between the careful left-side wide players (Matuidi-Lucas) and the courageous right-side wide players (Mbappé-Pavard). The latter were consistently overloading on the flank and their flank was also the focus of basically all penetrative passes. It is nice to see such a clear tactic and also to see it pay off so grandly. (2-1 Griezmann penalty goal attack was started by a long ball towards Mbappé by Lloris, 3-1 Pogba goal was started by a long ball towards Mbappé buy Pogba himself).

Btw, those average position ("actual formation", sure...) charts can be pretty misleading. Mbappé was keen to get forward and when he had he didn't have much urgency to get back to the defensive shape. Meaning his average position is higher than the instructed/"ideal". Also, Griezmann and Giroud swapped positions bunch of times, but there always remained the same shape (although real-life strikers aren't really that concerned about defensive shape a lot of the time unlike in FM...). With Griezmann's tendency to drop deep, that leads to average positions hinting at a vertical AMC-FC setting although in reality they were clearly two forwards side by side. Think about two wingers that swap positions so they play 50% of the time on each flank: their "actual position" is a central one. Useful data? Of course there are some things that can be extracted from those average positions, but they're rather bad at telling a side's defensive shape.

[Joey Numbaz]

9 minutes ago, däkkä said:

Think about two wingers that swap positions so they play 50% of the time on each flank: their "actual position" is a central one. Useful data? Of course there are some things that can be extracted from those average positions, but they're rather bad at telling a side's defensive shape.

Definitely agree with that. Was just using it as a guide, the heat maps are really where it's at, for sure.

5 minutes ago, däkkä said:

in the final France's defensive formation was clearly a 4-4-2 and that's what the formation in FM is, right? In build-up, Matuidi would move narrower and Mbappé would get forward resulting in a lopsided 4-3-3 shape. If we agree that formation is the fundamental defensive shape, then WMs and Wa are the obvious roles for Matuidi and Mbappé, respectively.

That makes a lot of sense. Something like this?

or this?

[däkkä]

I'd go for a literal 4-4-2 with DLFs and AFa swapping positions. That's the essence of the French tactic which is what I think tactical replications should aim for because of ME and tactical limitations. Can't use a trequartista role with strikers swapping sadly. Giroud the trequartista! A lot of the stuff forwards do regularly in real life are just so frustrating to try to do in FM. Ok, we can have the strikers swap positions in FM, and have for a decade, but why are the roles fixed for the position... ugh. Year after year. We should be able to set rotating "mini tactics" like a fluid striker partnership: this time I go forward, you drop deep. In 5 minutes, we'll swap roles. Because that's what strikers exchanging positions really is. It only becomes worse with a front three. Clearly it's not swapping positions or a tactical change but players executing pre-planned tactics of their own volition. But yeah, the ME is not there yet... we have tactics that are more conceptual than concrete.

The midfield roles seem right and the defence as well although I didn't really pay attention to Varane's build-up play. Umtiti definitely tried to play some forward passes so maybe BPD for Umtiti and regular centre-back for Varane.

[Joey Numbaz]

8 minutes ago, däkkä said:

A lot of the stuff forwards do regularly in real life are just so frustrating to try to do in FM. Ok, we can have the strikers swap positions in FM, and have for a decade, but why are the roles fixed for the position... ugh. Year after year. We should be able to set rotating "mini tactics" like a fluid striker partnership: this time I go forward, you drop deep. In 5 minutes, we'll swap roles. Because that's what strikers exchanging positions really is. It only becomes worse with a front three. Clearly it's not swapping positions or a tactical change but players executing pre-planned tactics of their own volition.

So we can have different roles for a player in a position. And we can set them up to swap positions. So I have have the STC be a CFs when Dolberg is there and a Poacher when Sandro is there. And I can have them swap, so the STR is a Treq when Sandro is there and a DLFs when Dolberg is there. And the game will swap them throughout automagically (I think the interval is longer than 5 minutes though).

But are you saying that for 5 minutes Dolberg plays CFs in STC. Then he changes to DLFs while still playing STC? Just as part of the engine, not having to do it manually?

[Joey Numbaz]

A bigger issue for me would be supporting roles. When the STL is a CFs and the STR is a P let's say, I'm going to want the WL, MCL, MCR and WR to be certain roles. And if the strikers swap roles, I'd probably want the support to swap too, unless it's a mirror image anyway, right?

[däkkä]

Can we do this in FM18? That's awesome! Haven't gotten too many hours on this years edition.

That makes it more manageable then.

I think I should just demonstrate what I was talking about because it was a bit incoherent but it seems you got the gist of it regardless. I want that my strikers to exchange between these four set-ups:

1.

FCR Griezmann AFa

FCL Giroud DLFs

 

2.

FCR Griezmann DLFs

FCL Giroud AFa

 

3.

FCR Giroud AFa

FCL Griezmann DLFs

 

4.

FCR Giroud DLFs

FCL Griezmann AFa

 

I don't think the fourth one was really used in the final, but the three first ones definitely were at different stages of the game. I don't think Deschamps had to tell them this during the game either.

[däkkä]

9 minutes ago, Joey Numbaz said:

A bigger issue for me would be supporting roles. When the STL is a CFs and the STR is a P let's say, I'm going to want the WL, MCL, MCR and WR to be certain roles. And if the strikers swap roles, I'd probably want the support to swap too, unless it's a mirror image anyway, right?

Yes, definitely. Especially in slow build-up we can spot teams trying different tactics fairly easily. I mean, a basic example of this is the French 4-4-2 -> 4-3-3 in transition from defence to build-up. The ME does a relatively good job of some of these changes in shape through having hard-coded actions. But what about something like Kanté moving to left-back position to help build from back when Pavard has already gone forward? That's clearly situational and not a major part of the tactic. Then you have Spain with Koke dropping to sort of DCR position when Spain had a slow attack that happened more systematically. I don't think this movement really exists in the ME. If it does, it's hard coded and out of our control. We should have some control over it to make the movement happen always, never or occasionally or under which conditions it should occur. I hope that in some future edition we'd get this, but it requires a leap as far as the ME goes.

[Joey Numbaz]

You can do (1 and 3) or (2 and 4) easily. That's just swap positions.

Click "Player Instructions" lower right of the tactics screen; then select one of the positions you want to swap, making sure "Position" is selected at the top (as opposed to "Personalized"). At the bottom select who you want to "Swap Positions With".

If you want to do (1 and 4) or (2 and 3), you have to set them to swap positions like above. Then set "Personalized instructions" for each player at the position.

To do (1 and 2) or (3 and 4) you have to swap the roles manually. In game, but that's pretty painless to do.

[däkkä]

1 minute ago, Joey Numbaz said:

You can do (1 and 3) or (2 and 4) easily. That's just swap positions.

Click "Player Instructions" lower right of the tactics screen; then select one of the positions you want to swap, making sure "Position" is selected at the top (as opposed to "Personalized"). At the bottom select who you want to "Swap Positions With".

If you want to do (1 and 4) or (2 and 3), you have to set them to swap positions like above. Then set "Personalized instructions" for each player at the position.

To do (1 and 2) or (3 and 4) you have to swap the roles manually. In game, but that's pretty painless to do.

Painless but tedious.

Given that the swap positions mechanism has gotten smarter, there's really no reason to not run with the idea of multiple roles for one position, which already is multiple tactics that take turns without manager input during the match, and just allow us multiple complete tactics.

[Joey Numbaz]

2 hours ago, däkkä said:

But what about something like Kanté moving to left-back position to help build from back when Pavard has already gone forward?

Yeah that's a tough one. Maybe if Kanté was a Carrilero and Lucas is a CWBa? But it's more to cover defense, not help with build up.

I wish they would just let us set a defending and an attacking formation. At least give a second screen option that shows the attacking formation. Or split the screen in half and have more to scale for where the computer would anticipate our with and without the ball players would be all things equal.

Or have one whole field and show arrows for where it anticipates normal movement with a different color for defensive and attacking movement, and a solid black line between the standard offensive and defensive positions for a player.

Kind of like what Spielverlagurng does or like these strikerless guides show. If you have move into channels have an arrow pointing towards the channel(s), etc. If you have a False 9 show and arrow dropping back, etc. It wouldn't be that hard to code (I don't think, adding arrows based on role/duty would be tough) and it would help us to visualize these things a lot better.

 

[Joey Numbaz]

Rewatching the Australia game, I am going to try to watch them all, creating a tactic for each as I see them change.

Middle to late first half, they are very clearly playing a 4141 that morphs to a 235 in attack (they've basically been camping and slowly probing for an opening for like 10 minutes generating a little penetration but not much).

Lucas and Pavard are *crazy* high. Like it's a flat 235.

And around 35' or so, I noticed that Mbappé is now playing on the left, swapped with Dembele, with Lucas on the wing even vertically with Mbappé. Low tempo, short passing. Very interesting to watch a game just looking at the tactics and not rooting for Tim Cahill (Everton guy don't forget) to be subbed in 

The average formation for 30-45 catches this. You see Pogba/Tolisso nearly on top of each other but switched. And Mbappé and Tolisso pretty much on top of Griezmann for the half.

[cameosis]

does anybody have croatia's final / semifinal tactics as a file by chance? thanks.

[Experienced Defender]

On 27/06/2018 at 18:45, Beni150 said:

Can anyone make Croatian tactic?

While nominally it was presented as a 4-2-3-1, it actually was more of a 4-1-2-3Wide. From what I remembered, Croatia basically was set up this way:

TMs

IFa                           Ws

DLPs   BtBM

DMd

WBs   CDc    CDd    FBs

GK

Standard / Structured (drop deeper, close down more, use tighter marking, whipped crosses)

[Experienced Defender]

None even mentioned how Russia eliminated Spain using an extremely defensive 5-3-2 tactic with virtually no attacking ambitions, which really impressed me as an admirer of intelligent defensive football. Here it is in my interpretation:

TMs   DFd

 

CAR   CMau   CAR

WBd                                       WBd

DCBd        DCBd

SW

GK

Defensive (occasionally Contain) / Fluid (close down less, lower tempo, be more disciplined, stick to positions)