Champions League and Europa League Market Pools (TV Money) not correct in game?

[Reflection86]

From this link http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41695802 you can see Leicester earned nearly €50m from market share tv money alone. Even Celtic earned nearly €15m TV money for exiting at the group stage. Is it just me or are tv payments for the Champions League a bit off in FM? I've never made more than around €20m in a season and it's usually far less than that. For your first season in the CL in the Prem for an average size club in FM it's more usual to make around €10-15m TV cash, no matter how well I do. Whereas in the link, the smallest earner out of the big clubs was Man City with €24.5m. Also when managing in Scotland I've never made more than around 4 or 5m tv money from the CL. 

Please note this is TV Money alone I'm talking about, not the performance related prize money which is totally seperate and seems more true to real life. Hopefully this will have been updated for FM18!  Full breakdown of how much teams earnt for prize money and market pool share last season (TV Money) is attached.

[Roy Race 9]

yes you are right it is not right

[Reflection86]

9 minutes ago, kingrobbo said:

yes you are right it is not right

Yeah I mean just look at Napoli. They got €41m tv money market pool share just for getting to the first knockout round! I've never seen any team in any country in FM getting more than €20-25m. As we can see from the breakdown above you have teams earning over double that in real-life, including Leicester who only got to the QF in their first ever Champions League campaign. This definitely needs looking into and updating/correcting, assuming it hasn't already been for FM18. Hopefully it's already been fixed 😊

[Roy Race 9]

 lets hope so 

you can use the editor to increase revenue to cover this issues thats what I have been doing for years

[Guest]

The way the money is allocated between nations & clubs within each nation should be correct, I spent ages working on this for FM13 as before then everyone got the same amount from TV market pool.

Seems like total pot value has not been increased in line with real life or you playing a much older version of FM.

[Reflection86]

50 minutes ago, Barside said:

The way the money is allocated between nations & clubs within each nation should be correct, I spent ages working on this for FM13 as before then everyone got the same amount from TV market pool.

Seems like total pot value has not been increased in line with real life or you playing a much older version of FM.

I was talking about FM17 mate. Can anyone honestly say they've seen any team earning €40-60m in t.v. revenue from the Champions League in FM as in some of the real life examples above? Seems like as you say total pot value hasn't been updated, certainly in England, Italy, France and Scotland.

[Guest]

I never took a look at the money in FM17 as it was working fine in previous versions.

The way for you to check is to take control of the clubs in your league who played in the CL in the previous season & check the values of their CL income, both TV & prize money.

[Reflection86]

20 minutes ago, Barside said:

I never took a look at the money in FM17 as it was working fine in previous versions.

The way for you to check is to take control of the clubs in your league who played in the CL in the previous season & check the values of their CL income, both TV & prize money.

I have checked and never seen any club earning more than about €20-25m from CL TV revenue in FM17. Whereas in real life some clubs are earning double that.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

One reason why the figures might be different in FM is because these figures are only released at the end of the season, meaning  FM is likely two seasons behind - the figures for last season won't have made it to FM17 as they have only just been announced, whilst the figures for last season might have been released too late to get into FM18 - FM18 may be based on 15/16 whilst FM17 may have been based on 14/15.

Also whilst uefa's website includes the actual data going back years they all seem to explain how it is split for 16/17 which might be different from other years - from that it's not a simple split half of the money is split depending on where you finished in the league, with the split changing depending on how many teams the country has, the other half is then split depending on the amount of matches played (they don't explain this so will assume it is the same per match and they divide the total amount by the total number of matches for that country to get a per match figure).

Of course to make things harder uefa don't seem to declare the exact details of how the sums are allocated to each country apart from being based on the TV market, and as far as I am aware FM doesn't state the market pool amount anywhere in game.

These are the figures for England after the first season has finished from my FM17 game:

1st Leicester 1KO - £18m
2nd Arsenal Won - £19m
3rd Spurs 1KO - £12m
4th City QF - £11m

Total Share = £60m

First Half;

Leicester get 40% - £12m
Arsenal get 30% - £9m
Spurs get 20% - £6m
City get 10% - £3m

Second Half total 39 games, so £0.77m per game

Leicester 8 games = £6.15m
Arsenal 13 games = £10m
Spurs 8 games = £6.15m
City 10 games = £7.69m

So totals should be which they are;

Leicester = £18m
Arsenal = £19m
Spurs = £12m
City = £11m

Though at the end of the second season the figures are off by a little bit;

Utd £18m SF (12) - £12m + £8m = £20m
City £16m F (13) - £9m + £9m = £18m
Arsenal £15m 1KO (8) - £6m + £6m = £12m
Spurs £10m QF (10) - £3m + £7m = £10m

Left side is what the game gave them, right side is what they should have got - so Arsenal seem to have taken some money from Utd and City

This is from 29/30;

Utd £18m QF (10) - £11m + £7m = £18m
Arsenal £15m QF (10) - £8.25m + £7m = £15.25m
Leicester £10m GS (6) - £5.5m + £4.25m = £9.75m
Me £12m Won (13) - £2.75m + £9.1m = £12m

Total seems to have dropped to £55m, though split is correct again.

Now take my last season;

Me £15m 1KO (8) - £11m + £5.5m = £16.5m
City £13m QF (10) - £8.25m + £7.25m = £15.5m
Utd £18m SF (12) - £5.5m + £8.7m = £14m
Everton £9m 1KO (8) - £2,75m + £5.5m = £8.5m

Still down to £55m and the split is off again with Utd taking some of mine and Citys money.

Quick check of Italy (5th);

Inter £24m GS (6) - £15m + £8m = £23m
AC £19m KO (8) - £10.5m + £11m = £21m
Juventus £16m KO (8) - £4.5m + £11m = £15.5m

Interestingly Italy split £60m but between only three sides, with the split correct accounting for rounding errors.

Quick check of Portugal (6th);

Benfica £2.25m KO (8) = £1.25m + £0.9m = £2.25m
Porto £1.6m GS (6) = £0.9m + £0.7m = £1.6m
Sporting £1.3m KO (8) = £0.4m + £0.9m = £1.3m

Portugal only share just over £5m which is less than Scotland get despite them being higher ranked as Celtic got £6.5m from being the only Scot to make the group stages.

So the game is generally using the correct split (seems to break a little when someone wins the UCL the previous season) it just hasn't updated the values, (nor is there anything to show how the pool is split per nation) looking back at the 14/15 market pool for England was ~€90m, which if using the 2015 exchange rate is ~£60m, though the Market Pool amount seems to change with something - however I don't know if the entire pool is changing or just the split - every nation could have lost £5m or another nation pinched the £5m from England, but I don't have time to grab the data from all the nations (nor am I running all the group leagues). 15/16 the English Market Pool jumped to €140m and is the same again for 16/17 so I'd expect the values to double for FM18 even if the game is a few years out of date as it looks like the new deal must have come in too late for FM17. (Though of course it'll change again in FM19 or FM20 depending on when uefa get around to actually providing the details of the new format).

[Reflection86]

Thanks for this Michael. So as we can see from your figures unfortunately FM17 is way outdated in terms of total market share, certainly for English teams. As you say it's £60m in FM17. 

From adding up the real-life figures from real life in the screenshot in my initial post, English teams has a total market pool (t.v. money alone) of €138.214m last season in real life. This works out to £123.48m. So that is over double the figure that FM17 is giving English sides for CL TV revenue. If this hasn't been updated for this year's game yet, I hope it will make it into a patch. I know they have updated the CL prize money in line with real life figures in the past. There is a massive disparity between the game sharing £60m of CL TV revenue between 4 English sides, and the real life figures for last season of £123.48m.

[Reflection86]

So as Michael says, the figures in FM17 first season in his test were as follows: 

Leicester- £18m Arsenal £19m Spurs £12m Man City £11m

Real life figures converted into pounds were as follows: Leicester £43.8m Arsenal £33.9m Spurs £23.8m Man City £21.9m

Huge difference!

[Guest]

Good effort on crunching the numbers, one aspect that I think might be throwing out the second season figures is the impact of titleholders. When I worked on this the titleholder (UCL) was guaranteed an equal highest share of first half split which is no longer the case & I'd hazard a guess that the UEL titleholder is also picking up a share of the first half market pool.

Another factor could be the new method for calculating what each nations gets, again when I original worked on this the criteria was a simple case of how much a nation's TV broadcaster paid into the pot & this used a combination of league rep, population size & wealth plus an assumption of how much that country paid into the pot based on the value of domestic TV rights across the top division. Now that methodology has changed with 60% the pool being equally shared & the remainder allocated based on the contribution which I guess has not been included or has but has an minor flaw causes errors in the returned values.

If I do get FM18 I'll update my excel workbook with the new criteria to run test saves & raise in the bugs forum if there is anything off.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Reflection86 said:

So as Michael says, the figures in FM17 first season in his test were as follows: 

Leicester- £18m Arsenal £19m Spurs £12m Man City £11m

Real life figures converted into pounds were as follows: Leicester £43.8m Arsenal £33.9m Spurs £23.8m Man City £21.9m

Huge difference!

Some of that may be lost if the £/€ FX rate is off in FM but essentially it does look like the total value of the market pool as not been increased in the data since it was originally set in 2014 so I suspect it's still at €750m, unfortunately I do not believe this is a data point we can access in the editor 

[michaeltmurrayuk]

12 hours ago, Barside said:

Some of that may be lost if the £/€ FX rate is off in FM but essentially it does look like the total value of the market pool as not been increased in the data since it was originally set in 2014 so I suspect it's still at €750m, unfortunately I do not believe this is a data point we can access in the editor 

Had a quick look through the editor and yeah none of that data is listed, did find the exchange rate which is listed as 1.161 so £60m would be €70m, which is below even the 14/15 market pool, so it looks like you said the market pool hasn't been altered since 2014 - in 13/14 and 12/13 the English sides market pool was ~€70m which would line up with FM.

Of course one reason why the figures might not have been updated is because uefa don't release the market pool data until after the season is over when it is likely too late for FM, they also operate on a three yearly cycle with the current cycle running from 15-18 - with the 15/16 data only being released in Nov-16 so too late for FM17, whilst the 14/15 data may have been released in either Oct-15 or Jul-16 and if it was July it may have just missed the cut.

15/16 was the start of the new uefa cycle but as that data was released too late for FM17, it would have still been using the market pool data from the old cycle - which was €70m in 12/13 and 13/14 and only went upto €90m in 14/15 which could have just been missed if the data was released in time as SI may not have expected the market pool to jump from €70m (€409m) to €90m (€492m) as it should have been static. It's the same with the current cycle 15/16 and 16/17 saw English sides get €140m of the €580m (though again this data wasn't released until after FM17 came out) but will it jump again for 17/18 which we won't find out until this time next year? (which will be too late for FM19)

However we'll find out in a week or so if the data has been updated for FM18, hopefully it has as the 15/16 figures should have been out long enough to be integrated.

[Reflection86]

Great info Michael. Let's hope they've updated it for FM18 seeing as you say, the new and current market pool cycle started in 15/16 season. You'd hope as it's been available for public consumption since November last year, the updated figures would have made it into FM18. Fingers crossed!

[Reflection86]

I can confirm this hasn't been updated. Just got to the CL Semi Final and I only got £12m CL TV money (managing in England and finished 3rd last season).  In real life the lowest market pool payment to an English Club was Man City with £21.9m. Any chance of this being sorted for the full game?

[Vinnyvagus77]

49 minutes ago, Reflection86 said:

I can confirm this hasn't been updated. Just got to the CL Semi Final and I only got £12m CL TV money (managing in England and finished 3rd last season).  In real life the lowest market pool payment to an English Club was Man City with £21.9m. Any chance of this being sorted for the full game?

if it's not updated by the time the full game comes out, then I guess we'll have to use the editor to update the finances to make up this deficit.

Do you have URL link to all the 2016/17 TV money pay outs.  It seems I'll need this to update the game with the Editor. Thanks

[michaeltmurrayuk]

1 hour ago, Reflection86 said:

I can confirm this hasn't been updated. Just got to the CL Semi Final and I only got £12m CL TV money (managing in England and finished 3rd last season).  In real life the lowest market pool payment to an English Club was Man City with £21.9m. Any chance of this being sorted for the full game?

If you have a save game around the time of the awarding of the money then it's worth raising the issue in the bugs forum so it can be fixed for release.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

22 minutes ago, Vinnyvagus77 said:

if it's not updated by the time the full game comes out, then I guess we'll have to use the editor to update the finances to make up this deficit.

Do you have URL link to all the 2016/17 TV money pay outs.  It seems I'll need this to update the game with the Editor. Thanks

Should be a pdf link to the values in Euros here: https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/newsid=2510173.html#/

Europa league values should be here: https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/newsid=2510175.html#/

With a breakdown of how the money is shared here (link to Europa report should be at bottom of page) : http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2398575.html

[Vinnyvagus77]

15 minutes ago, michaeltmurrayuk said:

Should be a pdf link to the values in Euros here: https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/newsid=2510173.html#/

Europa league values should be here: https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/about-uefa/news/newsid=2510175.html#/

With a breakdown of how the money is shared here (link to Europa report should be at bottom of page) : http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2398575.html

Thanks for this!

[rusty217]

On 22/10/2017 at 08:07, Barside said:

Another factor could be the new method for calculating what each nations gets, again when I original worked on this the criteria was a simple case of how much a nation's TV broadcaster paid into the pot & this used a combination of league rep, population size & wealth plus an assumption of how much that country paid into the pot based on the value of domestic TV rights across the top division. Now that methodology has changed with 60% the pool being equally shared & the remainder allocated based on the contribution which I guess has not been included or has but has an minor flaw causes errors in the returned values.

Is that how the game itself works out the CL market pools? That would mean it would change to award more money to countries if they consistently perform well and boost their league rep right?

[Reflection86]

On 31/10/2017 at 15:47, michaeltmurrayuk said:

If you have a save game around the time of the awarding of the money then it's worth raising the issue in the bugs forum so it can be fixed for release.

I will do eventually next time I'm in the Champions League, just been busy. You would hope they would naturally get around to updating It, without needing to raise it as a bug though. Seems strange to neglect the TV Money and leave it out of date for the biggest club competition in the world.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

5 hours ago, Reflection86 said:

I will do eventually next time I'm in the Champions League, just been busy. You would hope they would naturally get around to updating It, without needing to raise it as a bug though. Seems strange to neglect the TV Money and leave it out of date for the biggest club competition in the world.

The issue was being looked into so hopefully it was fixed in time for the full game - though I don't know if the fix would apply to beta saves as it would depend whether the money is set in the database or in game code. I'll have a look once I manage to get a game a year in.