Quality of Coaching - Impact on stars of training more than one category

[mhaffy]

I have read with interest guides that show the formulas used to arrive at the stars a coach has for training a particular category.

Eg Attacking formula is 2 x (Determination + Discipline + Motivation) + 3 x Tactical + 6 x Attacking.

If total >= 270 then 5 Star, if 240-269 then 4.5 star etc

As a test, I allocated my attributes so that my coaching stars were as follows for each individual category:

5 Stars for Tactical, Defending, Attacking and Shooting

4.5 Stars for Ball Control

3.5 Stars for Handling

3 Stars for Shot Stopping

2.5 Stars for Strength and Aerobic

However, the impact when I trained various pairs of categories led to differing reductions in my stars:

If I trained Defending and Shooting, both stars fell from 5 to 4

If I trained Defending and Tactics, Defending fell from 5 to 3.5 and Tactics from 5 to 4

If I trained Shooting and Shot Stopping. Shooting stayed at 5 and Shot Stopping fell from 3 to 2

Does anyone know how the formula/calculation is adjusted when you train an additional category?

 

 

[herne79]

Formula?  I wouldn't pay too much attention to that.  I've seen them and well yeh...  SI are the only people with relevant formulas, and they don't share that level of information (for good reason).

If coaches change their star ratings as you change their coaching category, it's just reflective of their differing relevant attributes and the amount of time a coach has to dedicate to each category.

Why overcomplicate things with made up formulas?  Just get the "best" coaches that you can afford with the relevant attributes.  If you check the pinned threads at the top of this forum there is an FAQ section and in there it details which attributes you should aim for in all the coaching categories https://community.sigames.com/topic/374464-frequently-asked-questions/.  Just scroll down to the Training section.

[Columnarius]

He may want to know in order to figure out what is the min he needs to have 4 stars when training 2 categories as opposed to 5 starts when training 1 category so that he can apply points elsewhere.

[mhaffy]

• 3 hours ago, Columnarius said:

  He may want to know in order to figure out what is the min he needs to have 4 stars when training 2 categories as opposed to 5 starts when training 1 category so that he can apply points elsewhere.

  Spot on... or ideally achieve 4.5 stars when training 2 categories.

[herne79]

9 hours ago, mhaffy said:

Does anyone know how the formula/calculation is adjusted when you train an additional category?

Was the question.  However the "formula" is nonsense but if you want to persist with it the best place to ask would be the author.

13 minutes ago, mhaffy said:

Spot on... or ideally achieve 4.5 stars when training 2 categories.

You'd need a coach with fantastic attributes in Determination, Motivation, Discipline + the relevant technical areas.  So lets say you wanted Defending and Shooting (which is mentioned in the OP) you'd need Defending, Tactical Coaching, Technique and Attacking.  And if he's a Youth Coach you'd have to add Working with Youngsters into the mix as well.

And even if you had a perfect score of 20 in all of those attributes (which nobody in the database has) you still may not get 4.5 or even 4 stars across two categories because of the amount of time that a coach is able to dedicate to training each category.

[mhaffy]

5 hours ago, herne79 said:

Was the question.  However the "formula" is nonsense but if you want to persist with it the best place to ask would be the author.

You'd need a coach with fantastic attributes in Determination, Motivation, Discipline + the relevant technical areas.  So lets say you wanted Defending and Shooting (which is mentioned in the OP) you'd need Defending, Tactical Coaching, Technique and Attacking.  And if he's a Youth Coach you'd have to add Working with Youngsters into the mix as well.

And even if you had a perfect score of 20 in all of those attributes (which nobody in the database has) you still may not get 4.5 or even 4 stars across two categories because of the amount of time that a coach is able to dedicate to training each category.

I have been playing Football Manager since the initial Championship Manager (Domark) days and have read the FAQ and have enjoyed reading posts from Rashidi, Cleon etc over the years that have addressed training and other parts of this great  game. Rashidi's BusttheNet vidoes on YouTube are highly recommended. I agree that my OP obviously was not specific enough. Whilst no coach in the database may have a perfect 20 score in relevant attributes, when you start a career save you can choose what type of manager you want to be (Tracksuit/Tactical) and can decide how to allocate your points between the Coaching attributes and  Mental attributes categories. The allocations that you make affect the coaching stars that you have for each individual category and will impact your career save and merit careful attention when setting up a new game. Being able to allocate these to achieve high ratings when training two categories could well be of benefit; particularly for areas where good quality coaches for particular categories are hard to find/recruit.

The attributes that affect/contribute towards your star rating for each particular category are well documented and clearly if you spend your time training two categories you would expect the stars to fall. My "formula/calculation" query was seeking insight into how the decline was arrived at.

Rather than asking "the author", I decided to run a test to gain a little more insight into the impact of training two categories rather than one. Results, for those who are interested, were as follows:

I set up a manager as above, Determination, Discipline and Motivating are maximised as are the coaching attributes for Attacking, Defending, Tactical, Mental,Technical. I had to compromise on Fitness and Goalkeepers and these are both set at 10.

Based upon these allocations my coaching stars for each individual category were as follow:

5 stars Tactics, Ball Control, Defending, Attacking, Shooting

4.5 stars Shot Stopping, Handling

4 stars Strength, Aerobic

Training two categories at a time yielded the following results:

The coaching star when training only one category is shown at the intersect of the relevant category (Yellow cells). eg Strength only is 4 stars, Aerobic only 4 stars, Shot Stopping only 4.5 stars, Handling only 4.5 stars, all others by themselves 5 stars.

The impact on stars of training two categories is shown at the intersect of the relevant categories: eg If you trained Attacking and Ball Control then Attacking becomes 3.5 stars (was 5 when only category) and Ball Control becomes 4.5 stars (was 5 when only category).

Based upon the above "matrix" there are a couple of 4.5/4 combinations:

Tactics and Attacking 4.5 and 4 respectively, Tactics and Shooting 4.5 and 4 respectively.

There are several combinations where both categories become 4 stars : Tactics and Ball Control, Tactics and Defending, Defending and Attacking, Defending and Shooting, Attacking and Shooting.

The stars, with some exceptions, were the same for training First Team or Under 18's; different star ratings for the Under 18's are shown in italics.

I will certainly be bearing the above in mind when setting up my manager and starting my FM18 career save (subject to any major overhaul of "formula/calculation" in the next release) and hope that the above may be of interest/use to others going forward.

 

[Columnarius]

@mhaffy

Nicely done!

I find it surprising that for youth training, star ratings for some coaching attributes increase and some decrease compared to senior training when training two attributes at once - that isn't something I noticed before.

It isn't in your table but I believe number of stars are identical when training one coaching attribute for Senior vs. Youth players (assuming a 20 rating in youth training).

You could probably set that Youth Training attribute even lower to see where youth training stars begin to decrease for youth training compared to senior training of a given coaching attribute.

@herne79

On 9/22/2017 at 00:56, herne79 said:

And even if you had a perfect score of 20 in all of those attributes (which nobody in the database has) you still may not get 4.5 or even 4 stars across two categories because of the amount of time that a coach is able to dedicate to training each category.

I just double-checked and confirmed that as the load on a coach increases due to more players being trained / increased intensity level , the coach's star level does not decrease.

Instead the "Coaches' Workload" changes from "Light" to "Average" to "Heavy" for the given coaching attribute.

I think that the stars represent what the coach "is capable of teaching".  The highest level star of all the coaches coaching a given coaching attribute represents what the coaching staff "is capable of teaching".  The sum of coaches training the category represents the "capacity to train the category" and affects the Coaches Workload (more coaches = lower workload).  

 

So rather than the stars decreasing, the workload level negatively decreases what the star level would otherwise produce, which is how we arrive at what the coaching staff is actually teaching the players.

 

That's how I understand it at least.

 

[mhaffy]

10 minutes ago, Columnarius said:

I just double-checked and confirmed that as the load on a coach increases due to more players being trained / increased intensity level , the coach's star level does not decrease.

Instead the "Coaches' Workload" changes from "Light" to "Average" to "Heavy" for the given coaching attribute.

That has always been my understanding too. Quality of training in a particular category is based upon the highest star rating achieved by one of the coaches assigned to that category. Workload takes account the number of coaches assigned to a particular category. Clearly as the number of players training a particular category increase, you may need to allocate additional coaches to that category to avoid the workload level changing from "Light" to "Average" etc.

18 minutes ago, Columnarius said:

I find it surprising that for youth training, star ratings for some coaching attributes increase and some decrease compared to senior training when training two attributes at once - that isn't something I noticed before.

I too found this strange and double checked it. Unsure why but useful to know.

In a real career save I like to have Man Management at 20 (as well as Working with Youngsters) and would alter slider used in my test a notch towards "Tactical Manager" to achieve this (using any spare points to increase Player/Youngster Knowledge). I would clearly have to reduce some points on the "Tracksuit" side and would take account of the potential two categories that I want to be at 4 stars when deciding where the attribute cuts should be made.

 

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Columnarius said:

I just double-checked and confirmed that as the load on a coach increases due to more players being trained / increased intensity level , the coach's star level does not decrease.

Instead the "Coaches' Workload" changes from "Light" to "Average" to "Heavy" for the given coaching attribute.

 

1 hour ago, mhaffy said:

That has always been my understanding too. Quality of training in a particular category is based upon the highest star rating achieved by one of the coaches assigned to that category.

I purposely didn't mention "workload" but as you brought it up I probably haven't been clear enough.  What I'm trying to say is that the quality of coach training reduces as you ask the coach to cover more than one category.  They can't split their time across multiple categories and remain as effective in each one.

So we're not adding to the amount of work we ask them to undertake (aka "workload"), we're asking them to cover different aspects which dilutes their effectiveness.

[BrianMunich]

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[kelabb]

Don't forget the quality of the training ammenities also affects the star ratings any coach will achieve.

 

As an example, I had a manager set up that gave me 4.5 stars in Attacking at Birmingham City, but only 3 stars at Cambridge United.

Cheers.

[mhaffy]

4 hours ago, kelabb said:

Don't forget the quality of the training ammenities also affects the star ratings any coach will achieve.

 

As an example, I had a manager set up that gave me 4.5 stars in Attacking at Birmingham City, but only 3 stars at Cambridge United.

Cheers.

Good advice. I knew that the quality of a clubs training facilities and youth facilities had an impact on player progression but thought that these were complimentary to coaching stars/workload/personality/match time/quality of matches etc in player progression rather than having a direct impact on a coaches star rating for a particular category.

"Testing" the impact of training facilities on coach star rating does confirm that there is, as you say, an impact on coaching stars.

When I performed my initial test I used the manager profile shown above with Chelsea - State of the art training facilities and Top youth facilities.

1) Using the same manager profile with Birmingham City (Impressive training facilities, Great youth facilities) non of my individual star ratings (yellow cells) changed but certain combinations did:

Tactics/Shooting became 4/4 rather than 4.5/4   Ball Control/Attacking became 4/4 rather than 4.5/3.5   Ball Control/Shooting became 4/4 rather than 4.5/3.5

Also fewer differences between U18's and main squad for combinations

2) Using the same manager profile with Cambridge United (Adequate training facilities, Adequate youth facilities) non of my individual star ratings (yellow cells) changed but certain combinations did:

Ball Control/Defending became 4.5/4 rather than 4/4 (strange that this is better with Cambridge than it was with Birmingham and Chelsea)

With U18's squad Ball Control/Defending reverted to 4/4

3) I then tried the same manager profile with Eastbourne Borough (Basic training facilties, Basic youth facilties) and although, again, non of my individual star ratings (yellow cells) changed LOTS of combinations did.........

 

Many thanks kelabb for this further insight into coach star ratings.

 

 

 

 

[Columnarius]

I didn't realize that the quality of the training facilities were visible in the coaching stars.  I always assumed that just got applied in the hidden math going on in the background affecting players' attribute changes.  Something like:

(Coaches' star rating for category) * (Effect of Workload) * (Quality of Training) = (Overall force multiplier affecting chance of stat increase from coaching)

I think I actually would prefer for the effect of training facilities to be less obvious in terms of their explicit effect.

[mhaffy]

7 hours ago, Columnarius said:

I didn't realize that the quality of the training facilities were visible in the coaching stars.  I always assumed that just got applied in the hidden math going on in the background affecting players' attribute changes.  Something like:

(Coaches' star rating for category) * (Effect of Workload) * (Quality of Training) = (Overall force multiplier affecting chance of stat increase from coaching)

I think I actually would prefer for the effect of training facilities to be less obvious in terms of their explicit effect.

Neither did I although, albeit from only a small test, the effect on stars seems subtle. Non of my stars when coaching just one category changed although this may happen if you are borderline. 

[herne79]

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 07:05, kelabb said:

Don't forget the quality of the training ammenities also affects the star ratings any coach will achieve

 

 

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 11:28, mhaffy said:

Many thanks kelabb for this further insight into coach star ratings.

 

 

19 hours ago, Columnarius said:

I didn't realize that the quality of the training facilities were visible in the coaching stars. 

 

11 hours ago, mhaffy said:

Neither did I although, albeit from only a small test, the effect on stars seems subtle. Non of my stars when coaching just one category changed although this may happen if you are borderline. 

Coach star ratings should be independent to Facilities.

If you're seeing anything different, I'd suggest you've either set something up incorrectly or it's not reporting properly in game.

[mhaffy]

13 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Coach star ratings should be independent to Facilities.

If you're seeing anything different, I'd suggest you've either set something up incorrectly or it's not reporting properly in game.

That's what I have always thought, hence my further testing after kelabb raised it.

When I tested impact of facilities on stars (Chelsea,Birmingham,Cambridge and Eastbourne) I only encountered differences when training more than one category so I concluded the impact must be pretty subtle/minor.

Further to your comment I decided to run a further detailed test using the following manager set up:

To test whether Facilities were impacting coaching stars I chose the attributes carefully to that coaching stars for individual categories were "on the border" as far as was possible:

Attributes contributing to Strength and Aerobic were set so that it should just achieve 4 stars as a single category - a reduction of 1 in  either Determination, Discipline, Motivation or Fitness attribute would result in 3.5 stars.

Tactics was expected to be 4 stars as well but would have needed a reduction of 2 between Determination, Discipline, Motivation or Tactics to become 3.5 stars.

Ball Control and Attacking were similarly set to just achieve 4 stars.

For Defending and Shot Stopping I set them to be just below being 4 stars; I expected them to be 3.5 stars - an increase of 1 any of the relevant attributes for these would have resulted in them just being 4 stars.

Shooting and Handling were not "on the borders" and I expected these to be safe 4 and 4.5 stars respectively.

I then tested the same manager profile on clubs with a good spread of facilities ratings:

When training individual categories the stars were exactly as I expected for ALL clubs; furthermore individual categories were the same for 1st team and U18's.

Training two categories did give slightly different results depending upon facilities rating.

In conclusion it seems that facilities may be having a very subtle impact on stars when training more than once category but have no impact on individual category ratings.