MShing Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Hi Everyone, for a long time I have played CM & FM and most of the time I have stuck to playing the usual typical formations of the time. i.e 442, 433 and more recently 4231 that everyone seems to be playing at the moment. If I'm not using one of these formations then I would usually try someone else's formation from this thread. I have become bored of this and have desperately being trying to come up with my own formation to try to add a bit more interest to my game. The purpose of this thread is to get some discussion going to see if these are fundamentally sound or work just because of of the talented players that I had in my squad at the time. I have a fair knowledge of tactics and the match engine but there will be plenty of you out there who have a lot more in depth knowledge in this area, who could offer suggestions, criticisms and improvements and why. Background I have, I will admit taken some influence from Chelsea's 3-4-3 from last season both formations depending on opposition and has now evolved to something slightly different. First I will show my results which were pretty good, in my second season with Dortmund I managed to topple Bayerns 10 year dominance and win the Bundesliga, this followed on from my first season where I joined them halfway through the season and we won the Europa League beating Chelsea 2-1. You will notice I am no longer at Dortmund as I was offered the Bayern job after my success, and I have only just decided to write this post. Manager profile below as proof League Winners & League Table Below you can see my results throughout the season, we were pretty successful against Bayern playing them 6 times over the season and only losing to them in the Euro Super Cup, with some impressive wins against them too. Fixtures The Tactics Both tactics you will see here I use control and fluid, but depending on opposition I will change this. For the most part I will use control, against weaker teams I have used attacking/overload to blitz the opposition early on then revert to control once I have a substantial lead in a game and against stronger opposition I would change to counter or standard and see how things pan out. 3-4-3 So this is the tactic I started to use early on in the season with some good results. I like having the 3 Cbs at the back with a couple of BPDs either side of a CD/c, having the 3 centre backs gives us the chance to have that extra man in midfield or attack. I like to have attacking wing backs who have good work rate, stamina, dribbling and crossing. The CMs this is where I was most unsure which roles to choose I went with AP and DLP but this may need to change as our play is focused too much in the middle. I would rather our play be wider to stretch the opposition. The only PIs I have are for the IF's to sit narrower, so the WBs can overlap and offer a crossing option. I am finding though this doesn't happen as often as I would like. I struggle to get the WBs to overlap as I would like without compromising the defensive responsibilities. I also struggle to get the IFs to play as I would like. They are usually too wide and do not offer enough threat centrally. My vision is to have them receive the ball and cut inside to either shoot or provide through balls into the CF but I struggle to get the IFs to work in this way so this is why I have evolved to the tactic below. 2-3-2-3 One of the problems I found with the 343 was that especially in the Bundesliga a lot of my opponents play 4231, and having 3 CBs with no midfielder in the DM strata, the oppositions AMC was gifted way too much space for my liking and was able to pick out the run of their CF way too easily. So I decided to move one CB to DM to man mark the AMC which seems to work better most of the time. I tried using the HB role here but found that the AMC was still given too much space when the HB dropped into the CB strata. The CMs. This is where i have a bit of trouble, I have tried a variety of roles in these positions but struggle to notice a difference in play, I will need more time to look into this. I thought having an AP to push slightly forward to help support attacks, and a CMs to just sit in the middle and ping balls around, not offering too much movement away from that central area. WBs. Given the loss of our IFs, the WBs offer the only width in this formation. I would like both WBs to bomb on and attack from the flanks providing crosses and through balls, I did try both on attack duty but now with only 2 CBs this left us a bit exposed at the back. I may drop one of my WBs to FB and see how this affects play, it might give us a bit more defensive stability. Attack. CF(A) - I like the idea of the CF being the main target for attacks but not affecting our play like a target man might. I am going to look at changing this role to an AF or P role to see how this changes our attacking play (again I need more time to look into this, as another role may complement our attacking play better) F9(DLF) & SS - I like the movement these roles offer, to try to confuse the oppositions defense, one dropping deep and the other running forward from deep areas seems to work well most of the time. I have tried the Treq role in the AMC but found that he just floats about and doesnt offer enough threat as I would like and whoever played there would get low ratings and not be involved enough in the play. I am undecided which role is best for the left attacker, either F9 or DLFs. I like the idea of them dropping deep while the SS runs forward and they do contribute to a fair amount of goals, The CF is usually the top scorer but the F9/DLF is not far behind. Team Instructions I try not to add too many TIs and just let the match play out. I like to pass out of defense, I dont like my CBs to just hit it long anywhere, with both my CBs comfortable on the ball and with good passing stats, I find this helps our possession and it builds up the play the way i like. I like my players to press more and put pressure on the opposition to try to win the ball higher up the pitch. I always use work ball into box, as without it i find my players shoot from distance way too often for my liking wasting chances when there would have been a better passing option. I am a bit short for time at the moment so cannot go into detail as much as I would like, but think I will post and see if I can add to my post soon. Initially in my Dortmund League winning season these tactics performed well, but we did start to struggle to win games convincingly towards the end of the season, and now I am trying the same tactic with Bayern and I am struggling to get it to work at the moment. I will need to tweak it to fit my players into it I think. Feel free to try this tactic and see if you can get it to play better than I have. Thanks for reading Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MShing Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 ignore the few pics at the bottom, I have tried deleting them but they still appear Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contexx Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I used the 343 system and won everything there is with Hoffenheim. At times it plays beautifully, although your central midfield might be the reason you started to eventually struggle. Personally I've had success with a BWM/B2B combo or something similar which will offer enough protection and cover enough space in that area. A dlp simply doesn't offer enough bite defensively and is a bit too I static. I even used a more creative player as a BWM(s) quite successfully, as he was able to provide a bit of creativity as well as making it tough for the opposition to control the midfield.. ... which brings me to the central midfield. you're outnumbered there and with three center backs behind, it's difficult for the opposition to get behind, and that can lead to loads of camping around your 30 yard line and lots of long shots. This is why aggressive midfielders are important. Also, you might consider a bit of variety for your wide players. and iwb /winger combo may give you more presence in the center and stretch the defense better. I used an AP on one wing with an attacking wingback behind him and it led to a lot of chances created through the wingback overlapping and the AP tucking in and having a lot of options. It almost looked like a pick n' roll play in basketball and is so difficult for the AI to stop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MShing Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 I have always struggled to decide which roles to use in centre midfield and always seem to revert to the dlp role for some reason, I will give the more aggressive roles a try as you suggest. My original thought for the 343 was to try to get the IFs to play as additional strikers who just start out wider. Thinking Thierry Henry when drifting out to the left. I dont even know if that is possible to do. They eventually stopped producing so thats why I reverted to the second tactic to try to get more out of a 3 man forward line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vargr Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Currently I have the same interest but still play with FM 2015. I did some research on the forum here and found this topic: https://community.sigames.com/topic/403700-the-art-of-the-half-space-the-gladbach-system/ which I took as a support hint and to develop my first basis strategy. Because my current team is missing DMs I used the same system but exchanged the DMs with CMs which leads to the following formation. ------------------------ AF (a) ----------------------------- ---------------- SS (a) ------- AM (a) ------------------- -- W (s) ----- CM (s) ------ CM (d) -------- W (a) -- -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- CD (d) -- CD (c) --- CD (d) -------------- With this approach I have 3 defense men to handle a ST and a CM which handles an AM. My Wingers typically handle the opponent wingers ... Further I have set a team instruction to push higher up to reduce the space between my lines and I play a combination of standard/very fluid. Other TI I try develop at the moment because a struggle with my goal effectiveness. I have many chances and often hit the goal but the relation is still to odd ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MShing Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 21 hours ago, Contexx said: I used the 343 system and won everything there is with Hoffenheim. At times it plays beautifully, although your central midfield might be the reason you started to eventually struggle. Personally I've had success with a BWM/B2B combo or something similar which will offer enough protection and cover enough space in that area. A dlp simply doesn't offer enough bite defensively and is a bit too I static. I even used a more creative player as a BWM(s) quite successfully, as he was able to provide a bit of creativity as well as making it tough for the opposition to control the midfield.. ... which brings me to the central midfield. you're outnumbered there and with three center backs behind, it's difficult for the opposition to get behind, and that can lead to loads of camping around your 30 yard line and lots of long shots. This is why aggressive midfielders are important. Also, you might consider a bit of variety for your wide players. and iwb /winger combo may give you more presence in the center and stretch the defense better. I used an AP on one wing with an attacking wingback behind him and it led to a lot of chances created through the wingback overlapping and the AP tucking in and having a lot of options. It almost looked like a pick n' roll play in basketball and is so difficult for the AI to stop. I'm liking the b2b & bwm combo. Tried it in a few games and we seem a bit more solid. A good start. 👍🏻 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MShing Posted August 22, 2017 Author Share Posted August 22, 2017 10 hours ago, Vargr said: Currently I have the same interest but still play with FM 2015. I did some research on the forum here and found this topic: https://community.sigames.com/topic/403700-the-art-of-the-half-space-the-gladbach-system/ which I took as a support hint and to develop my first basis strategy. Because my current team is missing DMs I used the same system but exchanged the DMs with CMs which leads to the following formation. ------------------------ AF (a) ----------------------------- ---------------- SS (a) ------- AM (a) ------------------- -- W (s) ----- CM (s) ------ CM (d) -------- W (a) -- -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- CD (d) -- CD (c) --- CD (d) -------------- With this approach I have 3 defense men to handle a ST and a CM which handles an AM. My Wingers typically handle the opponent wingers ... Further I have set a team instruction to push higher up to reduce the space between my lines and I play a combination of standard/very fluid. Other TI I try develop at the moment because a struggle with my goal effectiveness. I have many chances and often hit the goal but the relation is still to odd ... Playing wingers on the flanks especially w(a) with no full backs behind how do you find playing teams with wide players in the amr/aml positions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vargr Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 As my CM (d) stays deeper I have no trouble with AMs on my right side. Further the 3 defense men look quite robust against counter. But I think the instruction to push higher up is very important to reduce the space between my defense line and my midfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contexx Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 After my Hoffenheim side became fabulously wealthy and successful I stopped using this system and decided to go with a more old fashioned 433. This thread inspired me to go back to it, and it led to some gritty, lunch pail and hard hat football of old. Fewer shots and opponents deem it a bit more "safe" to try to camp in our area. I'm happy with them firing 15+ long shots, and any runs into my box or crosses from wide are dealt with very comfortably because there is a wall of 3 big aggressive centerbacks with excellent anticipation. Once teams give up possession it gets very difficult for them to deal with counterattacks. A few things I did to make us more solid: - One winger out wide with an IWB. The inverted wingback gives us more presence in the center, and allows one of the midfielders to get further up the pitch. I'm not quite sure where to put him yet because the wingback himself is getting into scoring positions and is so difficult for the AI to pick out. The "gets forward" PPM probably contributes to this. The winger is, of course, on support duty, and him not getting too far forward creates a nice pocket of space for one of the cm's and iwb to exploit. - I actually tend to play quite narrow. This way, there is more space opening up for the wide men, and ensures play develops more. Since the danger is out wide, keeping possession and dragging the opposition towards the center helps a lot. - Having said that, I now realize just why I abandoned the tactic a few seasons ago. The football is, at times, turgid. Oh, the defense is very solid. 19 games into the season and we've conceded 4 goals - one was a penalty and the other a free kick. Hoffenheim were blessed with the likes of Nichlas Sule and Benjamin Hubner - big mountains with good marking and tackling and nothing gets past them. It also helped to have Eugene Polanski and Dirk Vogt shielding that back line. It's Tony Pulis in dreamland! However, it's hard to get many chances, and it's too reliant on the striker for goals. The striker averages a goal a game, and quite a few goals come from set - pieces , with the wide forwards chipping in once in a while, but it would be nice to get more contribution from the central midfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakito Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 Still on FM16, I run a 3-4-3 flat in my Servette save in Switzerland, been quite successful (S1 1st promotion, S2 1st promotion + Swiss Cup, S3 comfortable 5th + Swiss Cup + decent performance in the EL group) but, as op mentioned, 4-2-3-1 creates a big problem in the hole. Mine is a quite different interpretation, yeah, but we face the same issue at the back. I'd assume I also concede more down the wings, but I'm willing to pay the price for extra offensive prowess. Used to run 3-1-4-2 as an alternative, but that eliminates the interplay of WMs and DLFs which creates overloads wide and beautiful football and is the hallmark of the formation itself, so considering a ridiculously cavalier 2-1-4-3 for the new season (or a standardish 4-1-2-3... but where's the fun in that?). So I can't really comment on your 2-3-2-3 yet, but maybe I can give you some insights regarding the 3-4-3. Here's my 3-4-3: DLFs ----- AFa ----- DLFs WMs ---- MCs ---- MCs ---- WMs CDd ------ CDd ------ CDd SKd Standard, very fluid; exploit both flanks, push higher up, use offside trap, prevent short GK distribution. SKd: roll it out, distribute to centrebacks 3*CDd: close down less 2*CMs: hold position 2*DLFs+AFa: close down more It's based on Zaccheroni's interpretation of the 3-4-3 (dunno if you can find good readings about it in English), the idea is to press high up with the front three, with the midfield 4 acting as a second high filter (hence the WMs instead of WBs). In attack it creates naturally a funnel that goes from the WMs to the AFa with the DLFs acting as link. Against teams with 4 wide men, the DLFs man mark the FB/WB while the WMs pick up the wingers. What can you take from this? You say: Quote The CMs this is where I was most unsure which roles to choose I went with AP and DLP but this may need to change as our play is focused too much in the middle. I would rather our play be wider to stretch the opposition. The only PIs I have are for the IF's to sit narrower, so the WBs can overlap and offer a crossing option. I am finding though this doesn't happen as often as I would like. I struggle to get the WBs to overlap as I would like without compromising the defensive responsibilities. I also struggle to get the IFs to play as I would like. They are usually too wide and do not offer enough threat centrally. My vision is to have them receive the ball and cut inside to either shoot or provide through balls into the CF but I struggle to get the IFs to work in this way so this is why I have evolved to the tactic below. Dunno if this is specific to the FM16 match engine, but I feel that my interpretation might offer you some ideas. As you can see, my midfield duo is a pure filter (CMs holding position) tasked with delivering balls out wide (exploit both flanks) where the WMs interact with the DLFs high up the pitch whenever the opportunity arises (courtesy of very fluid + standard mentality + support roles). Granted, you're going to have opponents breaking down the flanks, but as I said, I consider the "defensive responsibilities" of the WMs to be *filtering high up the pitch*. Having 3 centrebacks closing down less + the midfield duo on hold in front of them means we have a decent defensive core in the middle - after breaking down the flank, the opponents still need to cross or cut in, and we have five men waiting. Maybe give it a shot and see if there's something that you like, keep that and discard the rest! ___ I'm managing a crappy team, and this has worked alright against opponents up to decent Europa League standard (2-2 and 1-1 draws vs Braga), but we can't quite keep up with the big boys (1-4 and 4-2 losses vs Dortmund). You can really read it in two ways: either "oh, we conceded 8, we suck at the back!" or "hey, we scored 3 against a team whose goalkeeper is valued more than our entire team!". And I don't think you'd have such issues employing this with Bayern... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
denen123 Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 08:23, MShing said: Hi Everyone, for a long time I have played CM & FM and most of the time I have stuck to playing the usual typical formations of the time. i.e 442, 433 and more recently 4231 that everyone seems to be playing at the moment. If I'm not using one of these formations then I would usually try someone else's formation from this thread. I have become bored of this and have desperately being trying to come up with my own formation to try to add a bit more interest to my game. The purpose of this thread is to get some discussion going to see if these are fundamentally sound or work just because of of the talented players that I had in my squad at the time. I have a fair knowledge of tactics and the match engine but there will be plenty of you out there who have a lot more in depth knowledge in this area, who could offer suggestions, criticisms and improvements and why. Background I have, I will admit taken some influence from Chelsea's 3-4-3 from last season both formations depending on opposition and has now evolved to something slightly different. First I will show my results which were pretty good, in my second season with Dortmund I managed to topple Bayerns 10 year dominance and win the Bundesliga, this followed on from my first season where I joined them halfway through the season and we won the Europa League beating Chelsea 2-1. You will notice I am no longer at Dortmund as I was offered the Bayern job after my success, and I have only just decided to write this post. Manager profile below as proof League Winners & League Table Below you can see my results throughout the season, we were pretty successful against Bayern playing them 6 times over the season and only losing to them in the Euro Super Cup, with some impressive wins against them too. Fixtures The Tactics Both tactics you will see here I use control and fluid, but depending on opposition I will change this. For the most part I will use control, against weaker teams I have used attacking/overload to blitz the opposition early on then revert to control once I have a substantial lead in a game and against stronger opposition I would change to counter or standard and see how things pan out. 3-4-3 So this is the tactic I started to use early on in the season with some good results. I like having the 3 Cbs at the back with a couple of BPDs either side of a CD/c, having the 3 centre backs gives us the chance to have that extra man in midfield or attack. I like to have attacking wing backs who have good work rate, stamina, dribbling and crossing. The CMs this is where I was most unsure which roles to choose I went with AP and DLP but this may need to change as our play is focused too much in the middle. I would rather our play be wider to stretch the opposition. The only PIs I have are for the IF's to sit narrower, so the WBs can overlap and offer a crossing option. I am finding though this doesn't happen as often as I would like. I struggle to get the WBs to overlap as I would like without compromising the defensive responsibilities. I also struggle to get the IFs to play as I would like. They are usually too wide and do not offer enough threat centrally. My vision is to have them receive the ball and cut inside to either shoot or provide through balls into the CF but I struggle to get the IFs to work in this way so this is why I have evolved to the tactic below. 2-3-2-3 One of the problems I found with the 343 was that especially in the Bundesliga a lot of my opponents play 4231, and having 3 CBs with no midfielder in the DM strata, the oppositions AMC was gifted way too much space for my liking and was able to pick out the run of their CF way too easily. So I decided to move one CB to DM to man mark the AMC which seems to work better most of the time. I tried using the HB role here but found that the AMC was still given too much space when the HB dropped into the CB strata. The CMs. This is where i have a bit of trouble, I have tried a variety of roles in these positions but struggle to notice a difference in play, I will need more time to look into this. I thought having an AP to push slightly forward to help support attacks, and a CMs to just sit in the middle and ping balls around, not offering too much movement away from that central area. WBs. Given the loss of our IFs, the WBs offer the only width in this formation. I would like both WBs to bomb on and attack from the flanks providing crosses and through balls, I did try both on attack duty but now with only 2 CBs this left us a bit exposed at the back. I may drop one of my WBs to FB and see how this affects play, it might give us a bit more defensive stability. Attack. CF(A) - I like the idea of the CF being the main target for attacks but not affecting our play like a target man might. I am going to look at changing this role to an AF or P role to see how this changes our attacking play (again I need more time to look into this, as another role may complement our attacking play better) F9(DLF) & SS - I like the movement these roles offer, to try to confuse the oppositions defense, one dropping deep and the other running forward from deep areas seems to work well most of the time. I have tried the Treq role in the AMC but found that he just floats about and doesnt offer enough threat as I would like and whoever played there would get low ratings and not be involved enough in the play. I am undecided which role is best for the left attacker, either F9 or DLFs. I like the idea of them dropping deep while the SS runs forward and they do contribute to a fair amount of goals, The CF is usually the top scorer but the F9/DLF is not far behind. Team Instructions I try not to add too many TIs and just let the match play out. I like to pass out of defense, I dont like my CBs to just hit it long anywhere, with both my CBs comfortable on the ball and with good passing stats, I find this helps our possession and it builds up the play the way i like. I like my players to press more and put pressure on the opposition to try to win the ball higher up the pitch. I always use work ball into box, as without it i find my players shoot from distance way too often for my liking wasting chances when there would have been a better passing option. I am a bit short for time at the moment so cannot go into detail as much as I would like, but think I will post and see if I can add to my post soon. Initially in my Dortmund League winning season these tactics performed well, but we did start to struggle to win games convincingly towards the end of the season, and now I am trying the same tactic with Bayern and I am struggling to get it to work at the moment. I will need to tweak it to fit my players into it I think. Feel free to try this tactic and see if you can get it to play better than I have. Thanks for reading Hey friend, I've worked with this before and I found success with playing a cm(cm (s) or b2b (s) and a regista(more direct passes pi )rather than sacrificing the 3rd cb.it'll ease of on the work of the opposing amc.also utilising 2 cam's (engache & ss(att)).a cf (s) could lead the line.blessings👍 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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