3-4-2-1

[jackane24]

I thought somebody would have posted a thread about the 3-4-2-1 as it's a formation that Guardiola's put out at Bayern a couple of times (and seems to be playing with it at the moment based on the teams he's putting out and the heat-maps I've seen, but Rodgers has been using it to great effect over the past 2 months to put together some nice results. It's numerically the natural evolution of football. The 4-3-3 came to the fore because, to quote Mourinho;

"Look, if I have a triangle in midfield – Claude Makelele behind and two others just in front – I will always have an advantage against a pure 4-4-2 where the central midfielders are side by side. That’s because I will always have an extra man. It starts with Makelele, who is between the lines. If nobody comes to him he can see the whole pitch and has time. If he gets closed down it means one of the two other central midfielders is open. If they are closed down and the other team’s wingers come inside to help, it means there is space now for us on the flank, either for our own wingers or for our full-backs. There is nothing a pure 4-4-2 can do to stop things."

So it's 3 vs 2 in midfield. Pep and Rodgers have gone up to a box of 4, with DMs and 2 CAMs. You can even turn it into 6 courtesy of a ball-playing defender as the central centre-back and utilising a F9 or DLF in attack. The flanking CBs have to be quick, intelligent and have great positioning to cover a lot of the area that the wing-backs would be doing while the wing-backs in a 3-4-2-1 play further up the pitch as WB/IF hybrids. Robben's been a huge beneficiary playing as the right-sided WB/IF hybrid at Bayern.

I have a rough idea of how to start implementing it into the game, but I'm pretty sure some of you guys are using the 3-4-2-1 or perhaps, like me, you're trying to put a system together. I thought perhaps, similar to Cleon's Invincibles Thread, we could work on it together. I think it'll be easier to work together on this because my starting template will not be as tactically strong/accurate as Cleon's initial Invincibles tactic.

This is my initial idea;

Not sure on the mentality and team shape. I'm going to start with control - flexible.

I might need shorter passing and I definitely have to change the defensive line and closing down settings, but I'm not sure what to do yet. I wasn't giving the game earlier my full attention but Liverpool were defending on their 18yd line at a couple of stages, so I'll see how to replicate that. Might just be a standard line, but I'll need some sort of pressing and I'm not playing both a high line and pressing more with this system as I could get torn apart on the wings, especially against the big teams. Possibly a standard line and close down more.

I'm not sure about any of the roles to be honest.

I don't know if DW-S is suitable on the wing, but I'm worried that W-S is too attacking. WM-S or even WM-D might be better. In limbo.

I don't know about the Treq. Is AP-S or AP-A better? Not sure, but I think almost certainly an attack duty is better to provide attack down that flank, and also because I need one of the 2 CAMs coming back to help in defence so I want the other guy to stay upfront to help the F9 in counter-attacks.

Is the AM-S role right? I think so, as hopefully he'll win the ball back and then will have either the WP-A or Treq to pass to.

F9 or DLF? Not sure.

WP-A or WM-A? Not sure. Perhaps the AM-S will pass to him too much instead of the treq during counters if he's a WP-A, but I want him getting on the ball. He'll be my Robben.

Really not sure about the DM partnership. Henderson was definitely supporting, but helped out defensively. Wasn't sure if BWM-S is better, but I'll give

The DM-D could be an anchorman, but I think that's too static. I'd also worry about the gap between an anchorman and the WP-A. It might even be a problem on DM-D.

Any thoughts?

[Jambo98]

Interesting concept, and i will try and give some ideas later (in the middle of something else!).

As a starter, a couple of recent threads might give you some ideas/material to start from

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/420515-Need-help-with-3-6-1-DM-WB-Is-it-even-viable

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/415143-Developing-a-5-4-1-3-6-1-Box

Both subtle different to your shape, but i think all 3 give a nod to the current LFC setup.

I would say Pep setup isnt quite this though. His 3 at the back tactic tends not to have 2 pivote, particularly since one of the DC tends to step out (Usually Javi, but has been Alaba on occasion). Also his forward setup slightly different i would say.

That said, be interesting to see where you go with this

[jackane24]

Ah yes, that reminds me. Another option was to play 2 at the back and bring the central CB forward into a DM slot and play him as a HB. That turns the midfield into 7 players essentially!

[declanelcocks]

Might be worth checking the player positions out for the recent City vs Liverpool match:

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/829853/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2014-2015-Liverpool-Manchester-City

The average positions could quite easily be interpreted as a 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-2-1 really, which could be something to think about when choosing your roles. Can has been getting more and more adventurous with each game playing as a CB, and almost plays like a cross between CB/DM/RB (similar to how Alaba/Bernat play at Bayern). And if you think of it as just a 4-2-3-1, then Coutinho is pretty much just your average playmaker who has been shoved out wide, similar to how Ozil or Cazorla end up in the middle of the pitch.

Of course, when defending it's pretty obvious that Liverpool are playing 3-4-2-1, but it's interesting nonetheless to see that on average it could be described as a 4-2-3-1 because of the flexibility of each player/role.

[Bruce Drundrige]

I've been thinking about this formation as well actually. Looking at the player positions, Can looks like he is covering the space left by the more offensively minded Markovic with Lovren and Skrtel where you would expect them to be / more orthodox CDs in a back three.

Not sure Can's positioning would be easy to replicate?

[jackane24]

http://anfieldindex.com/13058/the-future-of-3-4-2-1-an-analysis.html

[iownyou]

I started a leeds game trying to implement this Liverpool system but I went with a 31411 instead and it worked alright but I came 7th only. So at the start of my second season I've gone for the 3421 and it's brought better results, ill post some shots later.

In terms of what you can change , it depends on who's style you're trying to implement.

If its bayern it should be more focused on possesion and specialist roles. If its Liverpool I'd favour a more fluid approach with no specialist roles as their play is very fluid and interchangeable.

I'd also advice pushing your two dms into cm positions as that cb/dm area looks overcrowded. So long as you have enough defensive duties across the 4 you'll be fine defensively.

I'd also remove the 'work ball into box' option, having used this formation and ended the season with the 2nd highest possesion stats in the league I can tell you that shout would be overkill. Bayern and Liverpool both also have players happy to shoot from distance so it would reflect that.

Players attributes are crucial for this formation to work but as you're arsenal you should be well covered , but I was leeds and didn't have such a well rounded team so I set myself rules.

The right and left centre backs had to have good passing , anticipation and positional attributes.

The wide players had to have good tackling stamina and work rate.

The cm positions should have players with good passing.

The two amcs should generally be your best players with dribbling passing shooting etc.

The cf position is one that I stil haven't quite figured out, I used billy sharp as a complete forward and he scored 32 goals in the old 31411, since I changed he's only scored three in about 15 games and his average ratings are bad. But the cf should certainly have some pace and off the ball movement as he would need to be a decoy for your two advancing amcs.

[jackane24]

Ok, this is what I ended up with at the end of the year.

Counter-Fluid

I've got Laporte & Bartra coming in so I'm going to switch the CB-Xs to BPD-Xs. That should help me retain possession better.

Sanchez got a broken foot and had a few niggles throughout the year. With a less injury-plagued year he'd have scored 50+ easily. As it happened Walcott came in and played like a god.

This is probably the best set-up I've ever made in FM. My team's unbeaten in 31 games - only lost to Liverpool away and Tottenham away in the league. Tottenham was first game of the season when I was still changing stuff and Liverpool deservedly beat me, and in the FA Cup as well. So my challenge is to adapt this to beat them.

I won all trophies available to me in the first season bar the FA Cup.

I took a long time to settle on the CAM pairing. I gave AM-A a try for a long time as well but this suited best. In some ways you need him to be your best player, as he'll struggle to score goals otherwise, but as you can see he'll have loads of great passing opportunities. I'm hoping to get James Rodriguez to play there. Özil was just a freak all year. Once his finishing improves and/or he learns to place his shots, I think he'll score 30+ a season.

[jackane24]

[alinp]

been using this formation for some time (and contributed to earlier mentioned threads)...

current incarnation looks like this

[jackane24]

How you been doing against Liverpool away?

[alinp]

How you been doing against Liverpool away?

I am Liverpool, so can't comment

[jackane24]

that's one way to make sure you don't lose to them

[Jambo98]

Big Franky Benali re-incarnated at centre back gotta love a regen name!

I had great success in either Fm14, or maybe it was even FM13 with a back 3 and 2 DM's. It was back when you could use a DW in the AMR/L slot and i had them as the lone wide men. Happy days