Some Thoughts About Potential Ability

[Cougar2010]

Sorry to be a pain, can someone explain to me in simple terms what a PA of -10, -9 etc actually means, I dont understand it!

A player with a -PA will be given a random fixed PA within a set range when a save is created.

-10 I think sets their PA somewhere between 170 & 200. So one save a player could have a PA of 170 while the next he might have a PA of 200.

There is also some overlap -9 I think is 150-180 although someone will correct me if my figures are out.

[fuhrerul]

Sorry to be a pain, can someone explain to me in simple terms what a PA of -10, -9 etc actually means, I dont understand it!

-10 = 170-200

-9 = 150-180

-8 = 130-160

-7 = 110-140

-6 = 90-120

-5 = 70-100

-4 = 50-80

-3 = 30-60

-2 = 10-40

-1 = 0-30

negative PA is used in the database and when u start a game a player will receive a fixed in-game PA randomly selected from the interval that coresponds to his negative PA ( if player X has a -9 PA in the db he will have in one game a PA of 156, in other a PA of 171, in other a PA of 162, in other 151 etc but he will never have a PA of 146 or something smaller then 150 or higher then 180)

[benallen002]

So the argument against a fixed PA is "Given the right circumstances, any player in the world can become the best player in the world."?

[Arnoldzhu]

So the argument against a fixed PA is "Given the right circumstances, any player in the world can become the best player in the world."?

Yet another argument on the contrary is a player with a fixed PA, say he's got 110/120 CA/PA at the age of 20, 'Given the right circumstances, and sufficient match experience, he would never become a good player even if he has also high ambition and professionalism'?

[benallen002]

Yet another argument on the contrary is a player with a fixed PA, say he's got 110/120 CA/PA at the age of 20, 'Given the right circumstances, and sufficient match experience, he would never become a good player even if he has also high ambition and professionalism'?

Well that sounds like the way real life works. I don't care how much ambition someone has and how hard they work, they can't become as good as Messi. There is a natural ceiling to everyone's talent.

If you honestly believe that anyone in the world can become the best player in the world simply through enough hard work/practice/match experience, then there is no point in discussing it. You think one thing and the makers of the game think another. You are talking about a philosphy change, not the way a feature of the game is implemented.

[Guest]

This is the point at which the discussion gets derailed, once side claims that a human being has unlimited potential & to an extent they are correct however the other side asserts that when the digital recreation enters the gameworld at 14 or 15 FM correctly simulates that the theoretical limitless potential of any individual human at birth no longer exists because they've already grown past their formative years of development.

[benallen002]

This is the point at which the discussion gets derailed, once side claims that a human being has unlimited potential & to an extent they are correct however the other side asserts that when the digital recreation enters the gameworld at 14 or 15 FM correctly simulates that the theoretical limitless potential of any individual human at birth no longer exists because they've already grown past their formative years of development.

Right. And it is (at least for the sake of the interwebs) a winless debate and one SI has already decided which side they are on.

[Arnoldzhu]

Well that sounds like the way real life works. I don't care how much ambition someone has and how hard they work, they can't become as good as Messi. There is a natural ceiling to everyone's talent.

If you honestly believe that anyone in the world can become the best player in the world simply through enough hard work/practice/match experience, then there is no point in discussing it. You think one thing and the makers of the game think another. You are talking about a philosphy change, not the way a feature of the game is implemented.

Yes, they can't and shouldn't be as good as messi of course. and, no, but they can improve through hard work/practice/match experience, right? So, 120 of PA is somewhat ruthless to him. That's what I meant. The player may possibly reach 129 or even 135 when he gets older. Why arbitrarily assign his PA to only 120? What kind of a role his mental attributes play?

If you use the editor to assign every player in the database with 200PA, still no one can be as good as messi when game starts. And in fact, not many will reach 180 CA in their peak year. You can try and test. Surely it will ruin the game because there will be too many good players to be realistic. So the mechanism of how a player develops in the game should be studied. In my ideal game, the players in the database will be having every attributes as they have now except CA and PA. Because CA/PA is an imaginary thing to me. First come the attributes of a player that define the ability of him, then we will evaluate an overall rating of the player by considering his ability generally. And again then, many factors will influence the speed in which a player can develop his technical/mental/physical attributes. So that a decent, professional young player of 80 CA may reach 130 when he's matured. And a wonderkid unprofessional player of 130 PA will peak at 155 when he's matured. Still the wonderkid is much better then the decent kid. Then there's no need to assign a fixed PA for them, like, say, 80/110 for the decent, and 130/185 for the wonderkid. That doesn't mean a lot actually. On what ground do you think gives you the reason to determine the decent player can never get any better than 110? When the PA is randomly assigned in the game, you really think the number 110 is calculated reasonably? Ok, how about 115? That's not too much to ask. Haha! And uh, no offense, but yeah, my talking maybe about a philosophy change, the implementation change can come from a philosophy change. Otherwise, nothing needs to be changed. I can accept what it is right now. I will edit every player in db to be having 200PA. So what.

[Guest]

You need to stop thinking of PA & by proxy CA as these all powerful numbers that define a player's career in FM, they do not. If a player hits his PA it doesn't mean he is unable to develop into a better player or be made to look better when placed in another team with a different tactical system.

An unlimited PA system is just a bad idea but assuming it was agreed to no longer short-change players by limiting their PA why would you set it at 200? Surely that is still limiting his potential so there should be limitless CA potential, of course this will allow all & sundry to game whatever system is created to assemble a team of super players but what the heck.

Don't listen to what x42 says, there is no system that can be coded to work on a home computer that would be able to prevent the human user from exploiting it.

[Arnoldzhu]

Because 200 is the highest in the game. And because if I set it to 190, then comes the question why the player cannot reach 191?

And actually I'm not listening to anyone. Everyone here seems to think with their own philosophy, and which is not identical to any other. What I meant to say is actually very simple. I just think PA plays its role in the game now. It's ok. But it still compromised part of the realism.

I'm not listening to anyone and I actually don't quite understand the theory of some of you as you don't understand mine.

p.s. I think it's funny that 200 PA of every player will make a superman team? Isn't that what they said that PA mostly will not be reached. So it really doesn't matter too much. Let's just forget about that PA.

[Guest Satchy]

And because if I set it to 190, then comes the question why the player cannot reach 191?

What makes you think this question is any different from real life? "Why can't everyone be like Messi?" That question is along the same lines, and the answer is that "it's just the way it is". To set a ceiling for a player in terms of PA in the game is completely in line with the real world, and as others have mentioned your question is not taking into consideration the redistribution of attribute points. Two defensive players with 190CA (at their limits) can be very different kinds of players. One could easily be more effective in a particular manager's tactical setup, thus making them in all actuality a better player than the other who is at an equal 190CA.

[Arnoldzhu]

Setting a ceiling is not wrong. The problem is setting a wrong ceiling. Because you never really know the ceiling. So the game randomizes it.

p.s. And so some players in the database will be tweaked with their CA/PA over time and attributes accordingly, cos you never know the 'true ceiling' and even how actually good or poor they are.

[Arnoldzhu]

Two defensive players with same CA say 190. But they are different kinds of players. One could be more effective than the other even without considering manager's tactical setup, so the attribute distributions between them is quite different. So one of players is actually a better player than the other. That's right, which mean the rating of one player is much better than the other. The 'overall rating' is what is used to describe how good they are, considering all factors.

And imagine that. you want to create a player in the database, say yourself. Which attribute would you assign first? CA? How? How much of CA you think you're? Say, 80. Ok, then you will assign each attribute including technical/mental/physical according to your actual condition. Right? Then what? when the game starts, your attributes may be lowered or increased due to the gap between your assigned CA 80 and the CA calculated from your actual technical/mental/physical attributes. See?

[Arnoldzhu]

You can make an extreme example to think it through. A player who has 20 for every physical attribute, and 20 for mental but 1 for technical. His overall CA will still be quite good. But it's meaningless. Because his overall rating is very low as a footballer. And my theory is saying that a normal person can gain improvement in his skills and mental awareness and physical ability through training and match, that's a natural thing. "Practice makes perfect' is what you say. So his CA can be improved given right condition and circumstances. But his overall rating is not changing so much which decides that a player will never become unrealistically too good as Messi. No where near messi I would say. But he can still improve.

So when player's PA is set in the database or randomized in the game, if he never reaches his PA, what's the point of PA. If he reaches his PA in his early 20's, then again what's point of PA that ruthlessly limits the player. why should he be suddenly blocked when he is doing welll on his way.

I'm not saying to take away the ceiling and let every player have the chance to progress into messi. That's crazy.

[benallen002]

what's the point of PA

Setting a ceiling is not wrong.

You have already answered your own question. The point of PA is to set the ceiling's value

Don't overthink it.

[Arnoldzhu]

OK. No problem by me. I do like to overthink things. Ha. Then if I change some players' PA using an editor, say a 19 year old with 120/130, to 150 PA, then I presume it would not be of a crime that I may be accused of. Ya?

[Guest Satchy]

Setting a ceiling is not wrong. The problem is setting a wrong ceiling. Because you never really know the ceiling. So the game randomizes it.

You have to consider though that the future is unknown, both in real life and obviously for the designers of the game. When you embark on a save you are entering into a virtual world, and the farther you go the more you depart from the progression of footballers in real life that the game is modeling. I think that you are getting way too hung up on this potential to be 'wrong'. There's no reason for that because you are playing a virtual simulation of football, whether it is modeled upon real life players or not. I don't think the goal of the game is to get the progression of real world players exactly correct, because for one they don't know for sure how players will turn out, and secondly that's not part of a realistic football management situation either. Managers take risks on players and sometimes they fail. So why is there an issue with the how the game sets a potential for any particular player? It's a virtual world, intended to be a departure from the real world. You are acting as a virtual football manager. If you think of it along those lines then the PA set by the game is really a moot point.

Think of it this way. You play as Barcelona, get to the year 2015 and Messi goes out for the whole season with a serious injury, but in the real world he happens to score an insane 80 goals that year (hypothetically). Did the game fail? No. That's part of the intentional design of the game, the unpredictability. So why is this acceptable but a 'wrong' PA assignment is not?

[benallen002]

OK. No problem by me. I do like to overthink things. Ha. Then if I change some players' PA using an editor, say a 19 year old with 120/130, to 150 PA, then I presume it would not be of a crime that I may be accused of. Ya?

Of course not. The other thing I meant to add to my last post was that the most important things are that the developers gave you tools to play the game as you like and you are availing yourself of those tools to get as much fun from the game as you can. Absolutely nothing wrong with that!

[Arnoldzhu]

Well, I can understand. Thank you both. It's not that I cannot accept something, just since we're providing 'some thoughts' and this aspect has long been overthought by me, so ... In fact, I basically overthink everything in the world as well as the game. lol