Going Behind In A Game - Turning It Around (The Discussion)

[furiousuk]

Thanks. That worked perfectly except that the ref was a little biased in my opponents favour.

Yes, frustratingly that happens sometimes. You can try going aggressive and matching fire with fire but all that will happen is you'll pick up cards and give away stupid fouls and ref will be justified for being biased.

If you drop tackling to easy your guys will still make tackles but they'll only go into those with a higher chance of success, might help. You can match this with tighter marking to restrict space (so long as your players can carry out that instruction, tight marking a fast player with a donkey for example isn't usually a good idea)

[Cleon]

Also if you playing a more cautious game composure becomes even more vital. If you have a team who are low on composure then any decisions they make on the ball will be rushed and when under pressure this can be costly.

[Cleon]

Thought id bump this

[howard moon]

This is something I seem to struggle with on FM 2012. I'm in my 2nd season at Man United.

If I go ahead, I'll tend to go on and win the game, but if I'm losing after an hour, especially if I've not yet scored, I'll invariably lose.

I now play a 4-2-3-1 system, with control, fluid, short passing, mixed focus, high creative freedom (used to play a flat 4-4-2). I mostly use 'retain possession', 'work ball into box' and 'stay on feet' shouts.

I try various things - playing more direct, playing wider, playing narrower, substitutions, but I can't remember the last time I turned a game round late on.

The most frustrating thing is dealing with the opponents time wasting. They suddenly become very good at keeping the ball (despite having only had 35% possession up until that point) and taking ages over set pieces. When we do get the ball, we tend to lose it quickly. It means that we're not even creating many chances and just being unlucky.

I know I'm doing something wrong, but I'm out of ideas now...

[Cleon]

Do you watch games in full? Or portions of a game? Do you ever watch games back that you've failed to get a result? Do you use the analyssi tab?

[howard moon]

Hi Cleon - I watch in full when I go behind, but as I'm quite a slow player, I don't go back and re-watch games.

I check the analysis tab, mainly to see where passes and interceptions are taking place, as well as average positions to make sure the team's shape is right. I also check the same for the opposition.

The frustrating thing is when the opposition, who are mostly always inferior to me, start passing the ball like Barcelona, so we can't get it back, and we begin losing the ball. I try adjusting the shape, playing more direct, playing wider, making substitutions, but if we're losing after an hour, we tend to lose.

My league results illustrate the point. Between January and November, I haven't drawn a single league game, but have lost 6. In 5 of those games, we lost 1-0. Always away from home too.

I'm at a loss tbh

[Cleon]

Thought I'd give this a bump

[Babak G]

Bump-worthy.

[Sunwell2]

Cleon this thread is fantastic! Really what a nooby FM needs. I've felt like i have to a certain degree understood how to set up tactics, but identifying problems have been a real problem.

[howard moon]

Bump

I'm still having problems with this, the same as I mentioned above.

I took a break from the game but have come back to it recently and am having the same issue.

Playing as Man United, 1st season. I've not managed to score a single goal if I'm behind after 60 minutes. Often, if I'm losing away from home after an hour, I'll be lucky to even have a single shot on goal.

Something is terribly wrong. It's not like goal scoring is a problem - my team is generally free-scoring, but if we're struggling in a game and go behind, we lose. I've come to the point now where I've given up really.

I play a 4-2-3-1, counter strategy, balanced structure. Short passing, width settings (via shouts) depend on who I'm playing against. I don't touch player instructions, and just leave them as they are in the TC.

I try leaving it as it is. I try moving up to control. I try bringing an extra striker on and going to 4-4-2 (a formation we are fluid in). I try playing attacking or even overload. I try exploiting the flanks, or playing more direct. Nothing works.

How to people turn it round when your opponents are playing 'contain' or 'defensive'? I find that they can keep the ball very easily, we struggle to get it back (even with 'hassle opponents' on) and the game just peters out...

Would really appreciate some advice because it's ruining my enjoyment of the game

[howard moon]

A case in point.

Played away to City, who were 5 points clear of me.

I played a 4-2-3-1, which is my normal system.

De Gea

Jones (WB - A)

Ferdinand (CD - D)

Vidic (CD - D)

Buttner (Evra injured) (WB - A)

Carrick (DLP - S)

Cleverley (DLP - S)

Nani (W - A)

Rooney (AM - S)

Young (W - A)

Van Persie (DLF - A)

Counter strategy, drill crosses, more roaming, default passing and closing down

Shouts - push higher up, play narrow, exploit the flanks, play out of defence, pass into space.

The idea was to squeeze the middle and hit them on the break out wide. It worked well for 35 minutes, we had more possession, pushed them back, and looked to be in control. The only concern I have is out attack is a bit laboured. We aren't moving the ball quickly in the final third, and we're a touch sloppy in possession.

Then we go behind to a goal that had everything we had lacked. A strong, aggressive run down the flank, and low cross and a finish from one of 3 players who attacked the ball.

At this moment, we have had 5 shots, with 2 on target.

I don't change anything at this point, just to see if we can turn it around.

At half time, I move to a 'control' strategy, as it's supposed to increase the width and tempo. I use the shouts play out of defence, play narrow, exploit the flanks.

City are more defensive now, so I'm hoping to camp out in their half. I change Rooney to AM - Attack and Van Persie to DLP - support so they will be closer together.

Around 60 minutes, Rooney, who took a knock, is replaced by Kagawa - straight swap.

Around 70 minutes, Hernandez comes on for Young. He goes up front as poacher and we switch to 4-4-2 (a formation we are fully trained in) with Kagawa wide left. I'm outnumbered in the middle, so keep the 'exploit the flanks' shout. I add 'hassle opponents' to increase the tempo as it's still very laboured. Then I add 'get ball forward'.

We lose 2-0. City create a number of good chances throughout the second half. We create nothing. At the end, we've had 6 shots, 2 on target, meaning we had ONE SHOT in 55 minutes (a speculative long range effort which was blocked). We had 7 corners whilst the score was 0-0, and not a single one after that.

What's annoying and hard to understand is the way my players play. They are slow on the ball, often holding onto it until they are under pressure and then passing it, really slowly to an opponent, whereas City were quick on the ball, playing incisive one and two touch passes around my penalty box. We had a respectable (as we were away) 44% possession, but did nothing with it. We only completed 3 passes in their penalty box, and an alarmingly high number of passes were intercepted.

I've played this game for a number of years now, and I've never felt powerless playing it before.

[Cleon]

Bump

I'm still having problems with this, the same as I mentioned above.

I took a break from the game but have come back to it recently and am having the same issue.

Playing as Man United, 1st season. I've not managed to score a single goal if I'm behind after 60 minutes. Often, if I'm losing away from home after an hour, I'll be lucky to even have a single shot on goal.

Something is terribly wrong. It's not like goal scoring is a problem - my team is generally free-scoring, but if we're struggling in a game and go behind, we lose. I've come to the point now where I've given up really.

Well it is an issue if you can't turn a game around.

Firstly you need to look at the goals you concede and see if there is a pattern to them.

I play a 4-2-3-1, counter strategy, balanced structure. Short passing, width settings (via shouts) depend on who I'm playing against. I don't touch player instructions, and just leave them as they are in the TC.

I try leaving it as it is. I try moving up to control. I try bringing an extra striker on and going to 4-4-2 (a formation we are fluid in). I try playing attacking or even overload. I try exploiting the flanks, or playing more direct. Nothing works.

How to people turn it round when your opponents are playing 'contain' or 'defensive'? I find that they can keep the ball very easily, we struggle to get it back (even with 'hassle opponents' on) and the game just peters out...

Would really appreciate some advice because it's ruining my enjoyment of the game

If you play 4231 and counter, the midfield and defence will generally have a big gap between them. Ideally and with the players you have at the club you should be looking to minimize this gap by playing a higher d-line.

The first mistake someone makes when a team is defensive is to go more attacking. To me this just isn't logical as it means you'll be creating less quality chances. What I'd do is look at creating better chances rather than attacking. So you should look at the players roles and see if you have players creating space, dropping off and making movement between the lines. By the sounds of it from what you've posted you don't have this happening.

Without this movement you'll be static and very easy to defend against because you'll not have anyone who is forcing the opposition to step up and get caught out of position.

[Cleon]

A case in point.

Played away to City, who were 5 points clear of me.

I played a 4-2-3-1, which is my normal system.

De Gea

Jones (WB - A)

Ferdinand (CD - D)

Vidic (CD - D)

Buttner (Evra injured) (WB - A)

Carrick (DLP - S)

Cleverley (DLP - S)

Nani (W - A)

Rooney (AM - S)

Young (W - A)

Van Persie (DLF - A)

Counter strategy, drill crosses, more roaming, default passing and closing down

Shouts - push higher up, play narrow, exploit the flanks, play out of defence, pass into space.

The idea was to squeeze the middle and hit them on the break out wide. It worked well for 35 minutes, we had more possession, pushed them back, and looked to be in control. The only concern I have is out attack is a bit laboured. We aren't moving the ball quickly in the final third, and we're a touch sloppy in possession.

Then we go behind to a goal that had everything we had lacked. A strong, aggressive run down the flank, and low cross and a finish from one of 3 players who attacked the ball.

At this moment, we have had 5 shots, with 2 on target.

I don't change anything at this point, just to see if we can turn it around.

At half time, I move to a 'control' strategy, as it's supposed to increase the width and tempo. I use the shouts play out of defence, play narrow, exploit the flanks.

Have you ever thought that you might not need all the shouts you keep seeming to use?

Also if you felt you was playing well I don't see why you'd panic and chance strategy so early at half time. If you feel things are working then you should stick to your guns and not panic. You felt it was working for 35 minutes then concede and then panic.

You might also want to take a look at your half time team talks as motivation might be an issue.

City are more defensive now, so I'm hoping to camp out in their half. I change Rooney to AM - Attack and Van Persie to DLP - support so they will be closer together.

Around 60 minutes, Rooney, who took a knock, is replaced by Kagawa - straight swap.

Around 70 minutes, Hernandez comes on for Young. He goes up front as poacher and we switch to 4-4-2 (a formation we are fully trained in) with Kagawa wide left. I'm outnumbered in the middle, so keep the 'exploit the flanks' shout. I add 'hassle opponents' to increase the tempo as it's still very laboured. Then I add 'get ball forward'.

We lose 2-0. City create a number of good chances throughout the second half. We create nothing. At the end, we've had 6 shots, 2 on target, meaning we had ONE SHOT in 55 minutes (a speculative long range effort which was blocked). We had 7 corners whilst the score was 0-0, and not a single one after that.

When you say City are now more defensive, what exactly do you mean? Did they change shape or just seem to drop off more?

I'm not quite sure why you'd change to a 442 if City are playing their shape they always use as it will just rip you apart on the counter attack. You won't have enough defensive players to cope with the AMC's.

What's annoying and hard to understand is the way my players play. They are slow on the ball, often holding onto it until they are under pressure and then passing it, really slowly to an opponent, whereas City were quick on the ball, playing incisive one and two touch passes around my penalty box. We had a respectable (as we were away) 44% possession, but did nothing with it. We only completed 3 passes in their penalty box, and an alarmingly high number of passes were intercepted.

I've played this game for a number of years now, and I've never felt powerless playing it before.

Your main issue seems to be creating space and movement. Going on the details you've provided so far this seems to be your biggest problem and one of the reasons why you do well when you score first because the opposition will be more attacking to try and get back into the game. This will result in you having more space to play in which is a good thing. But its not good when this only happens because the AI is chasing the game and they are creating it for you.

You seem to have some flaws so you should take stock and have a look at the way you are playing and try and fix it because you have major issues. It could just be a case of using the wrong roles, especially as movement and options seem to be a big issue.

Have a read of my new thread, it might help you think a bit differently;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/352483-The-Chalkboard-Diaries

[howard moon]

Thanks for taking the time to respond Cleon.

Have you ever thought that you might not need all the shouts you keep seeming to use?

There are reasons for the shouts. *The 'play out of defence' came from the previous game, a defeat at Liverpool. *The centre backs were playing a lot of aimless long balls and giving up possession, so I wanted them to feed the ball through to Carrick. *The width settings where to defend the middle of the pitch and attack the flanks, as City play through the middle. *I'd looked at an analysis of their previous game, and the 3 AMCs had lots of the ball, so I wanted to narrow the side against that. *Same with 'push up'. *I wanted to squeeze the space.

Also if you felt you was playing well I don't see why you'd panic and chance strategy so early at half time. If you feel things are working then you should stick to your guns and not panic. You felt it was working for 35 minutes then concede and then panic.

Fair point. At the time, whilst the tactic was working in putting pressure on City, we didn't create many chances. We looked good to perhaps nick it 1-0, but once we went behind, I felt we needed a little more urgency, especially as we seemed to fade in the last 10 minutes of the half. But I see what you're saying.

You might also want to take a look at your half time team talks as motivation might be an issue.

When you say City are now more defensive, what exactly do you mean? Did they change shape or just seem to drop off more?

At first, they just dropped off more, but during the second half they started to take forwards off and replace them with defensive players, and played a flat 4-5-1.

I'm not quite sure why you'd change to a 442 if City are playing their shape they always use as it will just rip you apart on the counter attack. You won't have enough defensive players to cope with the AMC's.

The idea was to go more direct, getting the ball wide and into the box quicker. Although it probably wasn't the best idea in hindsight...

Your main issue seems to be creating space and movement. Going on the details you've provided so far this seems to be your biggest problem and one of the reasons why you do well when you score first because the opposition will be more attacking to try and get back into the game. This will result in you having more space to play in which is a good thing. But its not good when this only happens because the AI is chasing the game and they are creating it for you.

I think this may be the key issue too. We do seem to be very static, but I'm not sure why. The 4 forwards all have PPMs that encourage movement (Rooney and RVP - drop deep, Kagawa - move into channels, Young - cut inside, even Cleverley has 'gets forward' PPM. The front four are also given high creative freedom and are allowed to roam.

Earlier in the season, I had my wide players on support duties, or one on attack and one on support, in order to vary their runs from deep, but I found we were leaving the CF isolated. I also replaced Scholes with Cleverley, as he does make forward runs regularly.

I'll take a look through the thread you've linked too later - thanks

[howard moon]

If you play 4231 and counter, the midfield and defence will generally have a big gap between them. Ideally and with the players you have at the club you should be looking to minimize this gap by playing a higher d-line.

I thought that the 'push higher up' shout would combat this.

I've avoided 'control' because I wanted to have a patient build up against teams defending deep, but hit teams on the counter with pace when the opportunity arises. With control, I found that we were patient, but didn't break with pace (which makes sense, the control strategy isn't meant to do this as far as I can tell).

[howard moon]

Well it is an issue if you can't turn a game around.

If you play 4231 and counter, the midfield and defence will generally have a big gap between them. Ideally and with the players you have at the club you should be looking to minimize this gap by playing a higher d-line.

I've had a look at the tactics creator, and I'm confused as to why a counter strategy would lead to an especially big gap between the defence and midfield. The mentality gap is exactly the same as it is with standard or control.

The only way to change the gap is to change the style. I currently use 'balanced' as it gives a nice structure, with the CMs a bit deeper and the wide players pushed on. Fluid didn't tend to work, and I'm not sure it will work best for a counter attacking strategy.

I've taken a deeper look at the differences in mentality, passing, closing down etc that changing the style and strategy has, and I'm stumped as to the lack of movement to be honest. There's no obvious reason why we struggle...

[agentvinz]

Any advice when you're underdog and try to play against the big teams? I"m QPR and so far has lost 3-0 to Arsenal and City, and lost 2-0 to Man Utd, all away matches.

The problem is we just respect them too much by giving them time and ball. Their goals are either from long shot, corner, through ball, or shot inside the box with nobody to close them. I've tried 4-1-2-2-1 counter but because we're deep and narrow we just can't create anything, and they have lots of possession and shot, so it just matter of time for them to score. When I switched to control and use play higher, hassle, and retain possession shout it still don't work because my players seems to afraid and respect them too much by playing very deep (despite def line set to the highest) and misplacing lots of passes. Are there games where we just can't win because the opposition is just to strong?

[howard moon]

I've played around with my team a bit more, and come to the conclusion that there is a fundamental problem that I'm having playing against teams that are playing 'contain' or 'defensive'.

2 examples, in consecutive games.

1. Played Stoke away. Went with control, balanced, 4-2-3-1. Dominated possession and created good chances in the first half, but fell behind after a defensive mistake. But the way we were playing, there was no real need to worry. In the last 10 minutes of the half we struggled to maintain the pressure we had earlier, so I decided to change it at half time.

Stoke dropped even deeper, so at half time I changed the set-up to counter, fluid. (I'd found that counter - balanced made us a little too static) in order to drop a bit deeper and draw Stoke out. We equalised on the 50th minute, so I kept it as it was. We didn't get another shot on target. I went back to how we started the game, and towards the end brought an extra forward on for a midfielder, but Stoke were happily time-wasting, running to the corner flag etc, and we were not able to string 2 passes together.

2. Played Southampton at home. Injuries to wide players meant I switched to 4-1-2-1-2 and tested a counter, fluid set-up(which we are fully trained in). We raced into a 3 goal lead and Southampton had a man sent off on the stroke of half time. So naturally, they defended deep and time-wasted. We had one shot in the entire second half.

I can't work out the problem.

I watched both games in full, and what I noticed was once my opponents dropped to contain or defensive, they suddenly became very good at keeping possession with lots of short passes (turning on 'hassle opponents' seems to have little effect) whilst my players begin to dwell on the ball for a long time, and then either get tackled by a player who was originally no-where near them, or just pass it to an opponent. We don't seem to be able to string two passes together in our opponents half.

Why is that? Why does a team suddenly become unable to play basic football just because their opponents defend more?

I can think of no logical reason why my team of world class players suddenly becomes impotent in the face of defensive tactics (either chasing a game or trying to break down 10 men). I've read a lot of threads on here, taken on a lot of the advice, and nothing.

The frustrating thing is it feels like I have to solve some sort of mathematical equation (and I'm not able to) as opposed to being able to think in football terms how to turn it around. I've tried everything and I'm close to giving up on the game to be honest.

My basic shape at the moment is:

4-2-3-1

FB(A) CB(D) CB(D) FB(A)

DLP(S) DLP(D)

W(A) AP(A) W(A)/IF(S)

DLF(A)

I've been experimenting with counter-fluid and control-balanced. More roaming, high creative freedom, zonal marking. Everything else default. One of the CMs is set as playmaker.

[agentvinz]

Just have my best match of the season. A 2-1 home win against Chelsea with my QPR side despite conceding a goal in 18 seconds when the match starts lol! It was a bit 'text book' goal where Mata pass to Demba Ba and all he do is just shot and score. They play a deep 4-2-3-1 with DMs and I play a 4-1-2-2-1 which is perfect in countering their formation (my DM marks their AMC, and my MCs will dominate the midfield because they have deep DMs). They key changes I made is to set my DM to specifically man mark their AMC (Mata) and to use OI against Hazard on the left (tight marking never, because he's so fast, and show feet to his left foot, because it's he's weakest foot and he isn't a good crosser) and use the following shout: push higher, stuck in, hassle and retain possession.

After their goal we're playing very well, dominating possession and give Petr Cech lots of problem but Cech is having a blinder! By half time the score is still 0-1 and I told the lads assertively that they're playing bad , and all of them are motivated! Then I sub my AML Junior Hoilett who is having a terrible game with Adel Taarabt and I don't make anymore changes because the boy are playing well. Eventually we won 2-1 with a goal from Taarabt (penalty) and SWP and I was very pleased! Both Mata and Hazard don't have a good game neither of them have key passes which mean our formation and OI works very well. Mata is keep being marked by my DM and have no chances to influence the game and Hazard don't have the chance to cut inside with the OI I give to him. Benitez then switch to 4-4-2 but then it's too late...

Next match I will face Spurs away which mean it will be much more difficult.

[howard moon]

I'm bumping this rather than starting another thread.

Still having difficulties when I go behind in a game. It seems if I am losing after 60 minutes, I will lose the game.

It's a massive issue, and it's derailing my season.

I've settled on a good tactic that suits my players, based heavily on this. I can control most games and have a good record, but if I'm losing after an hour, I can seemingly do nothing to change it.

Just played Spurs away. Leading 1-0 at half time, only to have a nightmare start to the 2nd half, losing 3 goals by the 55th minute, all from individual mistakes. We scored a goal out of nothing on the hour to make it 2-3.

I had been playing control, with 'drop deeper', 'hit early crosses' and 'pass into space' so we could play on the counter attack. I figured we needed to be more proactive so I unticked all of these.

We didn't create any opportunities, or even have a shot at goal. We gave the ball away a lot and were second to most 50-50s. We were also struggling to get the ball back from Spurs when they had possession and were suddenly playing tiki-taka.

So I thought it would be worth moving to 'attacking' to increase mentality and closing down. I also dropped a forward into AMC so that we were not outnumbered in midfield. This was after 75 minutes (so 15 minutes of failing to put any pressure on).

By the 90th minute, we haven't had a single shot on goal, and put one cross in. We ended up having an effort in the 90th minute from a corner, but it was saved, and we lost.

I'm not one of those who thinks that the game cheats. But I have reached the end of my patience with it now because I can't seem to do anything to stop this from happening.

Maybe I'm just not very good at the game...

[Cleon]

I'm bumping this rather than starting another thread.

Still having difficulties when I go behind in a game. It seems if I am losing after 60 minutes, I will lose the game.

It's a massive issue, and it's derailing my season.

I've settled on a good tactic that suits my players, based heavily on this. I can control most games and have a good record, but if I'm losing after an hour, I can seemingly do nothing to change it.

Who are you playing as? It's hard to control a game using a 442 because you tend to face a lot of 3 man midfield's so you naturally lose the numbers game in a vital area.

Just played Spurs away. Leading 1-0 at half time, only to have a nightmare start to the 2nd half, losing 3 goals by the 55th minute, all from individual mistakes. We scored a goal out of nothing on the hour to make it 2-3.

What kind of mistakes? Were the mistakes forced? Does this happen often? Is it always the same players?

I had been playing control, with 'drop deeper', 'hit early crosses' and 'pass into space' so we could play on the counter attack. I figured we needed to be more proactive so I unticked all of these.

I don't understand the logic behind this at all. You want to play a controlling game which focuses on playing quite high and patient build up play. Yet you drop deeper, hit crosses early and pass into space. Doesn't make sense, why don't you just play a counter attacking strategy if that's what you are using the shouts to do anyway?

You are aware of what those shouts change?

We didn't create any opportunities, or even have a shot at goal. We gave the ball away a lot and were second to most 50-50s. We were also struggling to get the ball back from Spurs when they had possession and were suddenly playing tiki-taka.

What shape did Spurs use?

So I thought it would be worth moving to 'attacking' to increase mentality and closing down. I also dropped a forward into AMC so that we were not outnumbered in midfield. This was after 75 minutes (so 15 minutes of failing to put any pressure on).

What's the logic behind going attacking when you've not been involved in the game? If you are struggling to get the ball and have shots going more attacking isn't really the answer that will solve the issue. To me it sounds like you've got issues with movement which suggest a role/duty issue as people playing between the lines.

Also how does moving a striker back to AMC help with not been out numbered? The AMC won't drop back enough to make up the difference unless he plays a role that allows him to be really deep.

By the 90th minute, we haven't had a single shot on goal, and put one cross in. We ended up having an effort in the 90th minute from a corner, but it was saved, and we lost.

I'm not one of those who thinks that the game cheats. But I have reached the end of my patience with it now because I can't seem to do anything to stop this from happening.

Maybe I'm just not very good at the game...

You seem really confused about how you want to play. You choose one style then use shouts to create another or drastically change the original style. You need to get a clear picture on how you want to play and have a look at your roles/duties and see if they allow for this.

It might be worth you reading http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/352483-The-Chalkboard-Diaries

[Theron]

I don't understand the logic behind this at all. You want to play a controlling game which focuses on playing quite high and patient build up play. Yet you drop deeper, hit crosses early and pass into space. Doesn't make sense, why don't you just play a counter attacking strategy if that's what you are using the shouts to do anyway?

You are aware of what those shouts change?

What's wrong with playing a controlling game (Control Mentality) and dropping slightly deeper Cleon? With a Control Mentality, the DLine is 'Push-up' first notch ... and by using the shout to Drop Deeper, the DLine notch goes to Normal but very close to Push-up. So, it's not like you've instructed them to sit very very deep! The DLine is still high but not 'extra' high ... that's all. What's wrong with that? Barca play like that IMO .... they drop slightly deeper when they have the ball and they Control the match. So, why in your opinion it can't be utilised?

I sometimes play 4-2-3-1 with Control Mentality and I use the Drop Deeper, Play Narrower and Retain Possession shouts when I'm playing Away and I'm leading. It works brilliantly! This way I make sure that our DLine is not very high, that my players are closer to each other so as not to leave gaps and that I don't waste possession that could result in a goal against us!

So IMO and from experience, there's nothing wrong with using Control Mentality and the Drop Deeper shout.

[Cleon]

I don't understand the logic behind this at all. You want to play a controlling game which focuses on playing quite high and patient build up play. Yet you drop deeper, hit crosses early and pass into space. Doesn't make sense, why don't you just play a counter attacking strategy if that's what you are using the shouts to do anyway?

You are aware of what those shouts change?

What's wrong with playing a controlling game (Control Mentality) and dropping slightly deeper Cleon? With a Control Mentality, the DLine is 'Push-up' first notch ... and by using the shout to Drop Deeper, the DLine notch goes to Normal but very close to Push-up. So, it's not like you've instructed them to sit very very deep! The DLine is still high but not 'extra' high ... that's all. What's wrong with that? Barca play like that IMO .... they drop slightly deeper when they have the ball and they Control the match. So, why in your opinion it can't be utilised?

I sometimes play 4-2-3-1 with Control Mentality and I use the Drop Deeper, Play Narrower and Retain Possession shouts when I'm playing Away and I'm leading. It works brilliantly! This way I make sure that our DLine is not very high, that my players are closer to each other so as not to leave gaps and that I don't waste possession that could result in a goal against us!

So IMO and from experience, there's nothing wrong with using Control Mentality and the Drop Deeper shout.

Rather than picking a snippet of information and taking it out of context, look at the full quote I was replying to.

I had been playing control, with 'drop deeper', 'hit early crosses' and 'pass into space' so we could play on the counter attack. I figured we needed to be more proactive so I unticked all of these.

This is what I was on about and not just isolating the 1 shout that you mentioned. If you can't see the issue with using all these at the same time as using a control strategy then you either fail to understand what the shouts change or don't understand the strategy. Using the one shouts you mention is fine. But using all of the above at the same time isn't logical and goes against a 'controlled' game. He choose control yet set up the shouts to be counter attacking. It doesn't make sense at all and what he should have done is just gone counter, its easier, simpler and more logical.

But please, keep things in context.

[Theron]

Yes I agree Cleon ... the 'hit early crosses' and 'pass into space' don't really go with a Control Mentality. Sorry about that ... but I read your part where you said that he wants to control the game but drop deeper and I thought you were saying that it's not logical to do this.

I never use 'hit early crosses' and 'pass into space' when using a Control Mentality. As you said, it doesn't make sense. But the 'drop deeper', 'play narrower' and 'retain possession' shouts work brilliantly with a Control Mentality IMO. After all, they're all shouts related to controlling the game unlike the 'hit early crosses' and 'pass into space'.

[howard moon]

Hi Cleon, thanks for your response. I've not had time to respond until now...

Who are you playing as? It's hard to control a game using a 442 because you tend to face a lot of 3 man midfield's so you naturally lose the numbers game in a vital area.

What kind of mistakes? Were the mistakes forced? Does this happen often? Is it always the same players?

Free header from a corner, a defender mis-judging the flight of a long ball, and losing possession in midfield, as Spurs suddenly started pressing really high up the pitch and I was slow to respond (or didn't know how to).

I don't understand the logic behind this at all. You want to play a controlling game which focuses on playing quite high and patient build up play. Yet you drop deeper, hit crosses early and pass into space. Doesn't make sense, why don't you just play a counter attacking strategy if that's what you are using the shouts to do anyway?

You are aware of what those shouts change?

I've tried a counter strategy and found that it made us sit far too deep, and we couldn't get out of our half against good side, let alone create chances on the break. Even pushing the d-line up didn't help.

The other thing I've noticed with the counter strategy is that there is always a big gap between the centre backs and the 2 MCs, meaning the team ends up playing too many long balls from the back (even on short passing) as they had no passing options.

What shape did Spurs use?

4-2-3-1.

What's the logic behind going attacking when you've not been involved in the game? If you are struggling to get the ball and have shots going more attacking isn't really the answer that will solve the issue. To me it sounds like you've got issues with movement which suggest a role/duty issue as people playing between the lines.

As I said, it was to increase mentality, tempo and passing range. Keeping it the same was out of the question as we were not creating anything at all. I might have made the wrong choice, but it wasn't wrong to change it.

Also how does moving a striker back to AMC help with not been out numbered? The AMC won't drop back enough to make up the difference unless he plays a role that allows him to be really deep.

It was Rooney, who drops deep because of his PPM, and works hard. The MCs from Spurs were getting too much space, and I wanted Rooney to help press them. Also, I assumed adding an extra 'band', moving from 3 bands (4-4-2) to 4 bands (4-4-1-1) would allow more passing options and movement between the lines - which is something we really struggle with when chasing a game - hence why this is posted in this thread.

Going with 2 MCs and an AMC matched what Spurs had.

You seem really confused about how you want to play. You choose one style then use shouts to create another or drastically change the original style. You need to get a clear picture on how you want to play and have a look at your roles/duties and see if they allow for this.

It might be worth you reading http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/352483-The-Chalkboard-Diaries

The bold bit - in reality, I'm not. I know exactly how I want to play, I just can't translate that into FM13. I've never got around the playing styles in this version

I want us to be able to control possession, but also be devastating on the break when the chance arises. Lots of creative freedom for the forwards, who should be free to express themselves. I also recognise that there will be games where we will need to accept that we won't have possession and play more on the break

I have 2 formations, 4-4-2 and a 4-2-3-1 as I like to be flexible. Also, my squad has good wingers and great options up front, so playing a slightly more direct and wide 4-4-2 makes sense.

My tactics, whilst seemingly incoherent, don't do me too badly - but there is definitely room for change as you say. The main struggle is turning games around. We can dominate games and win, or grind out a tough 1-0, but if we're behind after an hour and not playing well, it's curtains - which is a major problem. We don't even create chances, we just go out with a whimper, which is incredibly disheartening.

I've read through your (and other people's) stuff before, but will take another look.

[howard moon]

I should add, that defensively, we're fine. We have the best defensive record in the Prem, and at one point conceded 2 goals in 14 games.

The issue is attacking. We just lack coherence, especially when chasing a game.