Heading / Aerial Ability in FM11

[Colorado]

Just wondering if anyone can give me some words of advice regarding aerial ability in FM11.

I'm a little confused as previously I assumed that jumping/heading were the main factors in determining aerial ability but following the debate about Tim Cahill's settings (jumping 14), I'm now confused as to what I show be looking for and just how significant each of these attributes actually is (i.e strength, anticipation, determination).

Also a question I've never found a definitive answer for is - Does height actually make a difference in the match engine?

Common sense suggests it should but I've heard people suggest here that it is purely cosmetic.

Any advice/suggestions welcome! Thanks!

[mantralux]

Just wondering if anyone can give me some words of advice regarding aerial ability in FM11.

I'm a little confused as previously I assumed that jumping/heading were the main factors in determining aerial ability but following the debate about Tim Cahill's settings (jumping 14), I'm now confused as to what I show be looking for and just how significant each of these attributes actually is (i.e strength, anticipation, determination).

Also a question I've never found a definitive answer for is - Does height actually make a difference in the match engine?

Common sense suggests it should but I've heard people suggest here that it is purely cosmetic.

Any advice/suggestions welcome! Thanks!

Read the description of the jumping attribute in this thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/238231-Player-Attributes-Explained

The jumping attribute decides how far the player can get his head from the ground. His height is point A, and the jumping attribute is point B.

If player A and player B have a 20 jumping attribute, but player A is 20cm taller, he will be able to jump 20cm higher. But that doesn't take strength, bravery, decision, form, etc, into account.

[Kawee]

Mantra is wrong, I'm pretty sure.

Height is, as you suspected, purely cosmetic. Jumping in FM terms, is the height at which a player can reach, when everything (his leap and his height) are taken into account. Cahill's jumping was reduced to 14 because it was argued that his leap is simply not enough to give him the same reach as someone much taller like Vidic.

But as you also suspect, jumping, although being the main attribute, is not the only attribute taken into account when fighting for headers. I'm quite certain things like strength, balance, OTB, positioning, etc also play a part.

[mantralux]

Mantra is wrong, I'm pretty sure.

Height is, as you suspected, purely cosmetic.

It's not. This was changed in FM2010. The height decides if the player needs to jump or not.

[Gavolo]

Mantra is wrong, I'm pretty sure.

Height is, as you suspected, purely cosmetic. Jumping in FM terms, is the height at which a player can reach, when everything (his leap and his height) are taken into account. Cahill's jumping was reduced to 14 because it was argued that his leap is simply not enough to give him the same reach as someone much taller like Vidic.

But as you also suspect, jumping, although being the main attribute, is not the only attribute taken into account when fighting for headers. I'm quite certain things like strength, balance, OTB, positioning, etc also play a part.

its been confirm alot of times. height is important in the game, its not cosmetic like u said.

here, read this

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/235979-Does-Height-matter

[Kawee]

It's not. This was changed in FM2010. The height decides if the player needs to jump or not.

My bad. So it does have some effects. But once jumping becomes involved, I stand corrected. Height has no bearing on whether one wins a header during a jump, only whether one has to jump.

[Joor]

From the 2011 manual;

11.1.1. Physical

Jumping

This attribute related to a player's aerial reach from a standing start. It is an attribute which is relative to every other individual on the pitch. For example, a player who is 190cm will be able to reach higher than a player who is 170cm even with a poor jumping effort, regardless of the jumping ability the shorter player possesses.

[mantralux]

Height has no bearing on whether one wins a header during a jump, only whether one has to jump.

Height decides whether the player needs to jump, but also decides the maximum height he is able to jump. If two players have a 20 jumping attribute, the taller one will jump higher.

However, this is just from a straight jump up in the air, with no opposition player around. As soon as the jump involves winning the ball, so many other attributes come into play that the height attribute becomes almost pointless. Decision, strength, heading, jumping, etc...

[Doctor Who]

If two players have a 20 jumping attribute, the taller one will jump higher.

Wrong. 2 players with 20 in jumping would get their head equally high above the ground, no matter what their physical heights are. Jumping is to be regarded as physical height + leap combined into one stat.

[mantralux]

Wrong. 2 players with 20 in jumping would get their head equally high above the ground, no matter what their physical heights are.

Not according to the person who created the match engine. They would be able to get their heads the same distance from the ground, but it's relative to their height. According to those who know, height is indeed a factor in how high a player can jump, and I've seen developers say that a tall player will always jump higher than a short player, regardless of their jumping attribute. Which makes sense if you think about it: if Arshavin and Crouch have the same jumping technique, Crouch would always reach higher, because he's 30cm taller.

So no, the jumping attribute isn't a general ceiling of how high it's possible to jump. The jumping attribute is how high a player can jump, with his own height as a starting point.

[Kawee]

From the 2011 manual;

11.1.1. Physical

Jumping

This attribute related to a player's aerial reach from a standing start. It is an attribute which is relative to every other individual on the pitch. For example, a player who is 190cm will be able to reach higher than a player who is 170cm even with a poor jumping effort, regardless of the jumping ability the shorter player possesses.

What this actually mean is not:

Player A (170 cm) and Player B (190 cm) both with 20 jumping, and Player B will reach higher.

What it means:

Player A (170 cm) and Player B (190cm) both with the same real life jumping capability will lead to player A getting 15 jumping in FM and player B getting 20 jumping in FM. That is why Cahill gets 14 for jumping. He's a much better jumper than most people but because he's not 190 cm, the maximum someone his height can reach is 14 FM jumping height.

When jumping is involved, height becomes irrelevant in FM. You gave me the link to that other thread. Go read it again and you will see that Doctor Who and I are right.

[mantralux]

What this actually mean is not:

Player A (170 cm) and Player B (190 cm) both with 20 jumping, and Player B will reach higher.

What it means:

Player A (170 cm) and Player B (190cm) both with the same real life jumping capability will lead to player A getting 15 jumping in FM and player B getting 20 jumping in FM. That is why Cahill gets 14 for jumping. He's a much better jumper than most people but because he's not 190 cm, the maximum someone his height can reach is 14 FM jumping height.

When jumping is involved, height becomes irrelevant in FM. You gave me the link to that other thread. Go read it again and you will see that Doctor Who and I are right.

No here's how it works:

If Crouch starts to jump, his starting point (top of his head) is 200cm off the ground. The jumping attribute then decides how far he gets his head from the ground, giving you a distance from point A (200cm) to point B (jumping attribute).

If Arshavin starts to jump, his starting point (top of his head) is 170cm off the ground. The jumping attribute then decides how far he gets his head from the ground.

If both players have a 20 jumping attribute, Crouch would still jump 30cm higher than Arshavin, as his starting point is further from the ground.

[moonlander]

No here's how it works:

If Crouch starts to jump, his starting point (top of his head) is 200cm off the ground. The jumping attribute then decides how far he gets his head from the ground, giving you a distance from point A (200cm) to point B (jumping attribute).

If Arshavin starts to jump, his starting point (top of his head) is 170cm off the ground. The jumping attribute then decides how far he gets his head from the ground.

If both players have a 20 jumping attribute, Crouch would still jump 30cm higher than Arshavin, as his starting point is further from the ground.

No, if both players have 20 in jumping, they would have the same aerial reach, because in FM jumping = aerial reach. If you wan't to translate this into actual ability to jump, it would mean that arshavin is something like height (170) + leap (very high) = 20 jumping. For crouch it would be height (200) + leap (poor) = 20 jumping.

So height is indeed used in FM, but only to calculate the jumping attribute. High players naturally have a higher jumping attribute because their starting point is higher, but shorter players can make some of that up by having a good leap.

[mantralux]

No, if both players have 20 in jumping, they would have the same aerial reach, because in FM jumping = aerial reach. If you wan't to translate this into actual ability to jump, it would mean that arshavin is something like height (170) + leap (very high) = 20 jumping. For crouch it would be height (200) + leap (poor) = 20 jumping.

So height is indeed used in FM, but only to calculate the jumping attribute. High players naturally have a higher jumping attribute because their starting point is higher, but shorter players can make some of that up by having a good leap.

So what happens if player A is very tall and have an excellent leap. You're claiming he would still only be able to jump as high as a very short player with an excellent leap. Which isn't right.

The height is the starting point of a jump. Which is exactly why a tall player might not even have to jump in the first place.

[moonlander]

So what happens if player A is very tall and have an excellent leap. You're claiming he would still only be able to jump as high as a very short player with an excellent leap. Which isn't right.

The height is the starting point of a jump. Which is exactly why a tall player might not even have to jump in the first place.

I believe leap can only add so much to the total aerial reach, so a short player with excellent leap would have 14-15 in jumping, much like Cahill. I'm guessing he is at the maximum jumping for players his height.

So arshavin would never be able to outjump crouch, not in real life and not in FM. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

[mantralux]

So arshavin would never be able to outjump crouch, not in real life and not in FM. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

That's what I'm saying. =)

[bieritarier]

Jumping = Maximum reach. Height has no influence on that. Go read the data issues forum - there are explanations in about every thread. This is the main reason why there were new guidlines expecially for the jumping stats. And Cahill, wo may well be the best pure leaper in the game (it's insane) is the prime example. He'S small so his jumping of 14 is considered the max he can ever get.

[Kawee]

That's what I'm saying. =)

No. What you were saying was:

Reach = height + jumping

what we're saying is:

Reach = FM jumping

Once a jump is involved, height has no barring on the reach of the player. Height only dictates how much "jumping" attribute a player gets. So a player of 200cm and 170cm with 20 jumping will have the same reach. However, it's stupid and almost unrealistic to give anyone who's height is 170 a jumping of 20, so you probably won't see that happening.

[mantralux]

Height only dictates how much "jumping" attribute a player gets.

This isn't true. Height decides whether or not the player jumps or not in any given situation. If the ball is 200cm up in the air, Zigic doesn't need to jump, but Arshavin does. As it seems, height gives an indication as to how high the jumping attribute should be, and the only way I interpreted it differently was from where the measurement is taken (from the ground or from the top of the head). =)