skyzekaizo

The game needs to be overhauled. It's not right to sell it given the amount of bugs there is. There is no role on the wings that attack the half space, even RMD, which means that W/IF/RMD/IW behave roughly the same. When using wingers, it is not possible to have WBs push further forward because wingers never leave the flanks.

Will this issue be treated?

The MEZ-a sits way too high and leaves a hole in your midfield, against good opposition generally you get punished for that. In the previous edition this was mitigated because the F9 would sometimes drop deep and rotate with the MEZ-a, but in this edition he's not doing that anymore and this is a problem. While the AP-a frequently drop deep to receive a pass and is less inclined to leave a hole in the midfield during build up. Also, IF and IW roles are basically identical in this game, the only thing that makes a difference are traits. An IW will behave just like an IF if you teach him to move into channels, and the only way you'll get your IF/IW to cut inside is if you teach him the trait, otherwise he'll run to the byline and cross or lose the ball like a regular winger. Finally, I think that having 2 IF makes the width collapse too early.

Hmm, I'd like to see your tactic and compare it to the one I use, as well as how your F9 looks like. Mine has comes deep to get ball as well as arrives late into box and generally he never drops past the opposite DM/CM. Also I'd like to see photos where we can see the F9 drop into midfield during build up. Edit: yeah no mate, I think we're playing different games. I just simulated a game on FM24 vs a lower division opponent playing a 4-4-2, my F9 is playing the whole game like a bad poacher even though he has the space, the instructions and the PPMs to drop deep. He has on his right side a MEZ-a and a W-s, on his left side an IF-s and a DLP-s and he barely dropped lower than the opp deeper midfielder.

Exactly it should, but it doesn't. Try it in both versions (in a 4-3-3 or 5-2-3 formation) and you'll notice that in FM23 the F9 drops deeper and more frequently, and moves into channels if instructed to do so. While in FM24 he stays rather static.

Hey mate, I have used your tactic in FM23 and I think it was insanely good. In this edition I think there are a couple of problems that inherently cripple your F9 and therefore nerf down the tactic. Due to positional play, it does not matter which traits you teach your F9 or which instructions you give him in order to drop deep, roam and move into channels. Your F9 is pushed into staying central and will play like an inefficient spearhead. I'll explain myself: I'm 100% sure that the ME uses some kind of repelling potential between players so that they don't occupy the same zones, as well as making sure there is a player in each of the five channels. Due to the fact that the 4-3-3 formation spans the field as efficiently as possible, you will generally always have deeper or wider players that either occupy (or are hard coded to move into) zones that the F9 could possibly roam into. So the only space your F9 can and must occupy is the "spearhead". Other than that, your IW-a is pushed wide by your MEZ-a (even during build up) and I don't think the FB-s will be able to help him once you get to the flank. So I think that your IW-a will frequently get into situations where he is hugging the byline and does not have an easy passing option to recycle, and will therefore get pressed easily during away games where the AI is more aggressive. Edit: It's even worse than I thought, the F9 can't drop lower than in between the opp defenders and the defensive midfielders. I've just made the test playing a 5-2-3 with no DM running forward. Even with acres of space in the midfield and nobody hard coded to occupy it, the F9 stays high. The role is completely bugged.

Just played a game, my world class IF gets outclassed by a D2 fullback at home, no dribbles, no passes, no tricks, nothing. Once the ball gets to your wide players you've effectively lost the ball. Edit: also because of the match engine, the wingback never helps the winger because that would mean that he has to enter a zone which is already occupied by the winger, which is prohibited in this edition.

Actually, I was curious if this issue was present in the last edition, so I decided to simulate 8 games in FM23 and FM24 against the same opposition with the same tactic and players, with no subs, using the save I imported from FM23, and re-simulating some blatant outliers. Because the amount of passes were in average a bit higher in FM23, I decided to look at the percentage of passes completed by the F9, as well as the percentage of combinations. The total number of combinations was computed to be twice the total number of passes completed. The results are quite interesting, and in average: - there were 18 more passes completed in total in FM23 than in FM24 - the F9 combinations take 8.02% of the total share of combinations in FM23, while only 6.74% in FM24 - the F9 completes 6.93% of total share of passes completed in FM23, while only 6.04% in FM24 - the F9 does combines with other player 21% more in FM23 than in FM24 (with the PPMs to come deep and arrive late in box), completing 115.5 combinations in FM23 while only 94.7 in FM24. This difference is huge and shows how hard it is for the F9 to link up in FM24. The standard deviations and coefficient of variations are rather close in both games for both completed passes and combinations, although a bit higher in FM24. If they were significantly different, I'd run more than 10 games before drawing conclusions. But seeing that they differ by not much I think that 10 games should be enough. A final short test I've made on couple games show that the traits like ball played into feet increases slightly (I'd say 5 more passes and 10-15 more combinations in average) the amount of passes/combinations in FM23 but significantly reduces them on FM24 (I'd say 10-12 less passes and 20 less combinations in average). If I infer correctly, this PPM should push the F9 to collect the ball more in deep areas, and this works just fine in FM23. However on FM24 the F9 barely sees the ball because he does not drop as frequently or as deep. To be honest, even in FM23 the number of combinations completed by the F9 is rather low for a playmaker. In a system without playmakers and if we count the goalkeeper in, a naive calculation would state that every players should complete 9.09% of the total number of combinations. Of course it's not as easy because statistically DMs, FBs and CDs see way more of the ball share than other outfielders. However I would expect that a playmaker which is the heart of the team, and which should roam on almost the whole pitch, should complete at least 9.09% of the total number of combinations in a game. I reckon that this should be the lower bound on the F9's ball share, and 6.74% is definitely not enough. F9 passes comparison.xlsx matches FM24.rar matches FM23.rar

hmmm, how exactly does the AI approaches matches differently in home from away games? Because right now everything points to a debuff in attributes, low composure playmakers, bad decisions from every players on the field, wingers that forget how to dribble, cut in and pass. Bad passes from playmakers, less runs in behind from attacking players with good OTB, players with high pace that get outpaced by turtles, midfielders and defenders either conceding fouls or shying away from tackles. Heavy first touches from highly technical players etc... Maybe it's just that the AI decides to punish us harder on away games and these issues were already existant during home games. But then, if a player with less than 15 pace can outpace a player with 17+ pace, and if a playmaker with 17+ anticipation, composure and decision can be pressed succesfully 7 times out of 10, then what exactly are attributes for?

I think there are a lot of AI managers playing with IWB/IFB or both, these roles make it really hard to press high for the opposition. The problem is that not every team has the required players to do that, and not every manager is playing possession football. But somehow, there are lot of teams that do not fit the bill like mid-table teams, relegation candidates, which even if they do not have the players to do so, play with IWB/IFB and don't get punished for this. Other problem is that even good teams that are not known to be playing IWB/IFB nor possession football, which turns into tiki taka teams in FM24 for no reason. Finally, I do not think that the marking system enables central midfielders to mark out DMs, or full backs before they come to their level on the field, which by then is too late. Therefore let's say you want your midfielders to mark out the IWB and the DM to high press the defenders, in this edition you can't do that as the midfielders will not mark them until the other team progresses high enough.

I understand that, however what does "tendency" mean? How frequent a behaviour has to be to be called a tendency? Is it dependent on the situation or at random? If it depends on a given situation, a player with a trait such as come deep to get ball, with a high decision attribute, should in principle recognize a propice situation to drop deep, and drop at least half of the time, otherwise can you really call it a tendency? Given this reasonning, the fact that the F9 role has it hard coded to drop deep, that my player also has the traits both to come deep and to like ball played into feet, and that I ticked the instructions roam from position and move into channels, why do I find my player playing so high during build up and progression, and pushing the defensive line with the same intent as an IF-a with traits to go further forward, get into opp area and to try to beat offside trap? Even without traits the F9, if I'm not mistaken, is a withdrawn striker that should drop deep in order to help dominating the midfield. But right now he doesn't and he isn't any different from any other striker roles on support duty. On another subject, I do not think that a F9 should lead the line in the final third and sit in the box because it negates all his technical attributes, he should leave the box or attack it as late as possible and be the prime target for cut backs.

Then it would be nice to see it change in this edition. I would really like to play with a free electron in the ST position, but it seems that every striker role I have tried so far behave approximately the same once we arrive in the final third. Sure, the CF-s, the TQ and the F9 sometimes drop a bit, but they make no impact whatsoever neither in the build up nor the progression phase, and therefore they snuff out every reasons to play these roles.

I would like to know, do away games apply a debuff on the attributes of my players? Because each away game I feel like my players suffer a drop down in mental, technical and physical attributes. On away games I tend to see a lots of bad decisions, errors of concentration, rushed attacks, wingers forgetting how to dribble, players taking bad first touch with 16+ first touch, lots of passes missed, intercepted or long passes that look more like clearances than through balls, and of course players with 17+ acceleration/pace that get outpaced by players with max 15 acceleration/pace.

That would make sense and this is what I've been suspecting for a long time now. An other example for that is when you try to train the corresponding PPM on a player, look at what it says: How does a player being athletic translates into being good at trying killer balls often? Are they any other instructions that don't fit the description?

it doesn't help that every AI manager in this edition either plays a 5 at the back, or a tactic with both an IWB and an IFB.

on away games, having a winger in your team can result in three things: - you selected overlap/underlap: your winger is gonna take his sweet time before making a decision, and will loose the ball 9 times out of 10 - you did not selct overlap/underlap: your winger is gonna run to the byline and will lose the ball 9 times out of 10, even if you choose an IW/IF instead of a winger. - your winger was already marked to death by the opp full back and will loose the ball before as soon as he touches it

right now, without the PPM to move into channels, the IF is a glorified IW.

I have been having similar problems in this edition. I think that because of positional play, players will rarely roam inside zones where another player already is, therefore you loose the meaning of playing a trequartista (or any role which thrives when roaming) unless you have a hole in your formation for the TQ to fill. For example, I have tried a 4-3-3 formation strikerless (I dropped the striker into the AMC position), the AMC (10) was an AP-s with the instruction to roam from position and move into channels, and the MCR (8) was a mezzala on attack, here is a heat map from one of the game I simulated: you can see here that my AP-s is effectively sitting inside the left channel the whole game, he does not drop down to link up because the game prohibits him from moving during build up. I'm also rather sure the same happens for the RPM, in last edition you could see the RPM switch around with other team mates and actively move from one side to the other to create overload. In this edition, I am almost certain that the heat maps of the RPM and the AP-s in the midfield strata are exactly the same. I think that the instruction "roam from position" should bypass the positional structure, otherwise you might as well get rid of it.

Hi, There are couple of things I'd like to adress in this post, but the main motive of this post is to be able to recreate guardiola's barcelona in the golden era. First, I'd like to say that the efforts you put in the rotations in the early build up are game changing, and I hope to see this applied even further up the field. Second, I'll state the "issues" I see in the game related to the F9 and how it interacts with other players on the field, and then bring on my suggestions on how to remediate to those "issues". In order to bring the subject, I feel like sharing the tactic I use will help me build my point (although it's mostly a tactic I downloaded from passion4fm and then tweaked a bit): The issues I see with the F9 are: during early build up, in our third, he mostly stays in the AMC strata and sometimes move into the left channel to let the AP-a move further up thanks to positional play. But it never rotates position with the AP or make the other kind of rotation I'd like to see, where the DLP drops deep, the F9 drops to form a midfield diamond (or box maybe), the CWB pushes up to fill the IF's spot and the IF pushes up and central to fill the F9's spot to create Cruyff's 3-4-3. These kind of rotations feel somehow prohibited by the match engine. during mid build up, in the second third, he wobbles around the AMC position and tries (unsuccesfully) to attack the opposition's defensive line just like an AF would do, instead of helping with build up and letting the IF and IW push the defense instead. In the final third, he simply reverts to a basic poacher, occupying the opposition's area and waits patiently for a cross like Peter Crouch instead of dropping down and helping to create. he barely tries to collect the ball, it just plays like an anchor in the AMC strata and rarely moves down the field to help. He always takes half measures like dropping a bit but not enough to link up and create space for the wingers, or attacking the defensive line but not enough to be real threat. the opposition's defensive line pushes up when it sees the F9 dropping, which negates most of the F9's strength, and renders this role a bit useless. There are also issues I see with other roles that I would like to tackle: the AP-a has two kind of behaviors, if the instruction to get further forward is ticked, he will position himself in the right channel in the AM strata and will extremely rarely drop down to collect the ball, look to break through the line like a MEZ-a (which I understand, he's an AP, not a MEZ), or rotate with the F9. If the instruction is not ticked, he will position himself almost as deep as the DLP (which I find problematic because he will hardly link up with the F9 and will push the IW to drop down to effectively link up with him). the IF/IW roles have two modus operandi; if the instructions to hold up ball or look for overlap/underlap are ticked, they take their sweet time and get pressed into loosing the ball against good opposition. And if these instructions are not ticked, they dribble down the flank to the byline 9 times out of 10, instead of recycling, cutting inside or looking for a one-two. On the other hand, roles like the new winger, the AP-s, and the RMD do way better in those aspects. The new winger cuts way more often than the IF or the IW, while the AP-s on the wing and the RMD do not dwell on the ball as much as the IF/IW, do not dribble as soon as they receive the ball, pass way more effectively, and are way harder to press down. the IF role is a bit obsolete, without the PPM to move into channels, it reproduces the IW's behaviour but in a more selfish way and it is not clear how the IF-s changes from the IF-a. the roaming playmaker does not really position itself very well either, it positions itself in between the AP-s and the AP-a, it drops deep but not as often as it should and in the final third it's roaming ability is limited, also a player's ability to play a RPM is inversely proportional to his tackling attribute. A player with a tackling attribute higher than 4 or 5 will never be more than competent in this role. (this is also the case with the TQ's role in the AMC strata and teamrate+work rate attributes) the CWB is too "strict" in its movement, it rather stays wide and look at the DLP getting pressed down instead of moving a bit inside to help (even with narrow width and much shorter passing), which I think is curious when you know that "roam from position" is hard coded into the role. On attack duty, it persists to dribble down the flank and cross even though his PPM/instructions do not incline him to do this, And on support duty he is a bit more intelligent in his decisions, but persists on sitting in the wide midfielder position during build up instead of attacking the space left by the IF moving into the channel. Finally, the behaviour of players in the final third is a bit too "one dimensional", and the only way I found to partially work around this is to play with the lowest tempo setting, which invites too much pressure on the wingers and the playmakers on away games (even with 17 to 18 in composure anticipation and decisions). Basically, with anything higher than "lower tempo", all the players in the attacking strata get into the opposition's box, no matter the role or the duty, the F9 leads the line, the wingers and the F9 sit into the box even though there is plenty of space everywhere else like on the wings or just outside the box. The wingback tries to cross every chances he gets, and the fullback and the defensive midfield strata start to shoot like it's call of duty. All in all, when arriving to the final third it seems like every player forget to make use their attributes like OTB, decisions or composure and the positional structure breaks down. What I have also noticed, is that there is either a time limite before one decides to shoot, or a limit on the number of passes in the final third because someone decides to shoot. Effectively, it feels like my team is playing final fantasy, and it has a timer on its attacking turn, after which it's the opponent's turn to attack. I think I'm done with listing the issues (and ranting about them), now it's time for suggestions: rotations between the F9 (and maybe the CF-s/TQ) and all the roles in the AM and CM strata should be implemented, like it has been done for the deeper roles, in order to reproduce the role more faithfully. Also the F9 should have the licence to roam freely practically anywhere from the CM or DM strata to the ST strata. (for my argument I'll use Busquet's famous assist to messi. This can be reproduced only if the DM meets the ST somewhere, and it better not be in the final third) roles with "roaming from position" should partially bypass the positional play structure and permit any two or three adjacent players, for which you tick on the instruction, to rotate around. For example, a MEZ could rotate with an IF or an IWB. there should be a PPM or an instruction that permits a player to completely bypass the positional play structure and look to collect the ball, either on the other side of the pitch to overload, or drop one or two strata down (like from AM to DM or from CM to defense) to help build up, without it inhibiting the ability to go further forward when needed. Another way that this could be done, is to have a new PI or TI named: look for overload / respect structural play for example. I think the PPM linked to movements should be revamped, the instruction "comes deep to get ball" should not impact the ability of a player to get further forward when there is a possibility to attack space, and vice versa, a player with get further forward should be able to drop deep if there is space behind. Maybe a "looks for space to attack" and "looks for space to create" would make the game a bit more dynamic. This would permit a player to fill the space left by another player, either in order to receive a through ball, or in order to create something from there. the F9 role should get the playmaker treatment and look to collect the ball more often, also I think the instruction "play with back to the goal" should be somehow implemented into the role because right now it just feels like a half AF when it really should look to link up between the wingers and the midfielders. In the final third, the F9 should delay his arrival to the box (with or without the PPM, I tried it and the PPM does help maybe 1 out of 10 times), or make the shuttle between the edge and the box. Otherwise there is no use to the F9 and I might play a DLF-a or a CF-a instead. The behaviour that is closest to this is the AP-s behaviour in the AMC position, he reproduces this kind of arriving late into the box way better than the F9. the opposition's defensive line should not push up and be shoulder to shoulder with the F9, the DM is already responsible for that job and I feel that pushing the defensive line up kills the role. the AP-a should roam more and behave more like the RPM does right now, he should both attack the channel and and drop deeper to collect the ball at an equal rate, making his average vertical position between the DLP and the F9. the IW should behave a bit more like the AP-s on the wing, with a 50/50 chance for him to pass or to dribble. He should be able to cut inside at least 6 times out of 10 without teaching him the PPM, and not 1-2 out 10 which is what happens as of now without the PPM. If I wanted a winger that dribbles through the flank I'd pick a winger. the IF should behave more closely to the RMD, it should attack channels as a standard behaviour and without having the need to teach him the PPM, and like the IW he should look to cut inside even without the PPM. He should perform way more one-twos (with the PPM) than he currently does and stop running down the flank at every opportunity he gets. He should also be able to play like a central threat on the attack duty and lead the line when instructed to sit narrower. the RPM should behave more closely to the BBM and drop deep on a more frequent basis, help with overload on each sides of the pitch and should be able to tackle. Right now I feel like the RPM is too focused on attacking (in positive mentality at least). the CWB should be able to move into channels in order to offer an option to pass for the midfielders, it should also move towards the byline once the half line has been reached, and act like a winger no matter what duty is on. The funny fact is that if you put the CWB in the DM strata, it does run towards the AM strata during build up, but then other problems occur and make this quite ineffective. Also, the CWB-a should be able to partake in more one-twos and stop running down the byline to cross on every possible occasion. I think the instruction to dribble more should not be hard coded for the following roles (W, IF, IW), because it ruins the player's ability to make a good decision. Another possibility is to create a blank role in the winger strata to allow more flexibility in the gameplay. In the final third, not all players should occupy the box constantly, and not every wingers/wingbacks should try to cross like their life depend on it. Not everyone is Mike Bassett's apprentice and I'd rather see some good cut backs instead of the regular run down to byline and cross. Right now, it is a complete chaos in the final third except for the defensive unit, which tries to shoot on every possible occasions even with the instructions and PPM to not do so. Players with support duty or good OTB attribute (or players with the PPM to look for space to create) should drop deep to revive the attack. IF/IW should also not attack the box in the final third when they are 5 foot tall and there are acres of spaces on the wings to occupy. Even when playing with a high defensive line, there should be a possibility for defensers to drop deep to stretch the space between the lines, same for the central midfielders, no matter their roles, and allow teams to stop squishing the pitch while building up, no matter where they are on the field. And when in the final third, the option to recycle possession should be the "go to" option instead of having a DM with the accuracy of a shotgun trying to finesse the ball into the net at every occasion he gets. Players should collectively feel that the box is too crowded and that it is wiser to drop down in each unit to have more space between the lines, specially in the final third. This would reduce the "final fantasy" feeling where each team takes a turn at attacking the other. I think this is possible to do using the same principle you used for positional play. Or via the use of some kind of repulsive potential between players of each team, making them effectively feel when there are too much players stacked in one area. Another thing, playing narrow should encourage the tricky one-twos or one touch passes that are so beautiful to watch and made football so interesting to watch in my opinion. Even near the edge of the box, a good team should be able to pull these moves even against the tightest defenses, and it should be considered in the ME as risky as taking a long shot, dribbling through the center or looking for a cross by the byline when your players are all midgets. Basically the "try killer balls often" and the "plays one-twos" PPM should push this kind of behaviour more often. Micro-movements and repositionning should be revamped or allowed via an instruction I think. What I mean by that is: to every player, assign a small circle on the field around him, in this circle the player is allowed to roam around to find a more effective position to receive the ball and allow the team to gradually break down the opposition's defense by repetitive micro-displacements. Maybe a motion governed both by Fick's (diffusion) and Hooke's (spring) law could do the trick, with the diffusion pushing the player to explore around the center randomly, and the spring making sure he comes back to his position with more eagerness the further he deviates from it. Thank you to those having the patience to read this long post, I really enjoyed playing fm23 and fm24 this past year and I hope that some of the suggestions I wrote here will make the cut for next year's edition.

Hi, is it possible to have more PI freedom in the winger position? Basically I would like to play with IFs or IWs without the dribble more instruction because I feel like they always dribble as soon as they get the ball instead of looking for better options first and they always get into cul-de-sac. I've tried other roles like AP(s) or RMD but the first one is too passive out of possession and does not attack channels, and the other one does not track back enough. And I don't feel comfortable using the dribble less TI for one or two players only. Also it feels like the dribble less TI make the players more predictable as in they won't try tricky passes or dribble to get out of trouble, instead they opt for safe passing options and they get pressed way more easily. Also, I've seen that WBs recently got the dribble more instruction revoked and I think it would be nice to have the IF, IW and W roles go through the same change.