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  • OTB movement and positioning are wrong, and PPM movements are not working correctly


    skyzekaizo
    • Public Status: Open PKM / REC File: R.JanvBarcelona.pkm Files Uploaded: PKM / REC File
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    Hi,

    after I've played couple seasons in this edition,I began to notice that something was wrong in the OTB movements of the players, as well as their positioning, I have simulated a game, and I'll try to pinpoint the issues which are coming in most of the matches I've played so far (before we start, I edited the players to have the PPM I want to, and they have completely mental attributes, in order to recreate what I'd like to see on the pitch):

    05:46 Messi has the PPM to drop deep, he should occupy the hole in midfield but stay attached to the defensers (even though he is a F9). Balde should be higher because he's playing CWBa but still somehow sits in the midfield strata. This issue is recurring a lot.

    06:48 Messi is behaving like an AF and runs into the box, he's a F9 he should roam and run to help Yamal and not behave like an AF.

    08:54 Messi is again behaving like an AF, he should be dropping in to link up but stays way too high for his role.

    17:10 Balde behaves like a FBs and does not run to help Fati which behaves like a winger and runs down the flank, again Balde is a CWBa and Fati is an IFs, this should not happen, and Messi stays central when he should move into the channel to help.

    23:00 This sequence shows both good things and bad things, messi takes his sweet time but finally drops where Prado is when he should be dropping as soon as the build up starts, Gavi gets the ball and both Messi and Pedri start running forward while Messi, as a F9 should stay deeper to collect the ball. At 23:18 there is a clear opportunity for Messi to run inside the channel, or even Pedri which plays mezzala. Pedri runs in late but still tries to do it, which is a positive thing. However Messi is completely oblivious to the run and stays deep, now is the time to run forward mate, not to stay deep, where is your 18 OTB attribute gone to? During the whole sequence Fati could stay more central and behave like an AF trying to make a run in behind, but half-asses it and stays in the channel.

    23:30 Messi has the perfect opportunity to move into the channel, but stays central and waits for the ball.

    23:56 There is a complete hole in between Fresneda and Yamal where either Pedri, or Messi could drop to, given that Messi has both "likes ball played into feet", "comes deep to get ball", and I've almost maxed his OTB, I'd expect from him to recognize this and drop into the space. Instead he wobbles around the defensive line. You're a F9 mate, not a poacher, neither an AF.

    24:00 Perfect opportunity here for Balde or Fati to run in behind, but no they prefer to wait for the ball to get into their feet.

    24:07 Both Fati, Messi and Pedri try to run into the box at the same time, again Messi has the PPM to drop deep, Fati has the PPM to beat the offside trap, Pedri is a mez on attack. Messi should drop deep to link up, Fati should attack the left channel, Pedri the right channel (maybe not at the same time but with a bit of delay between them). How do they all push at the same time given their role, attributes and PPMs?

    31:55 Another wasted opportunity for Messi to attack the channel and link up with Pedri, for Balde to run up and attack the left flank, for Fati to play centrally.

    35:07 There is a space to fill, which Fresneda try to fill because he's an IWB-s, however, it's still early in the build up, why don't either Messi or Pedri drop deep? Why don't they recognise that there is a space where they can drop to? 10 seconds later we see that Messi could again attack the channel, even Pedri, but they do not do that. Messi's movement is so passive when he should be the most roaming player on the field.

    40:59 Look again, at Messi's, Fati and Balde's behaviour. Balde is still in the midfield strata, Fati is a bit more central but again I think Messi's hindering him from going totally central. And Messi tries to attack centrally way too early in the build up, no mate, you should stay deep and link up with Gavi, you're a playmaker with all the PPMs for that, not an AF.

    49:22 The vertical space between Fresneda and Pedri is large enough to park Mourinho's bus in it, but again both Messi and Pedri are pushing the defense, why? Lamine, you're a winger with the PPM to beat the offside trap, why do you wait for the ball to come to you? Why don't you make the run in behind?

    49:35 There is a gaping hole in the midfield, does anyone with the PPM to come deep drop to receive the ball? No, let's push the defensive line because we're all playing poachers today.

    56:24 there is a hole the size of a crater in the midfield, why does Messi attack the defensive line instead of dropping deep? Also why is Pedri knocking the ball with 2 CB ahead of him instead of passing to Messi? Where did his 17-18 decision and first touch go to?

    I could go on, but I think that this is enough to make my point. The OTB movements are broken, the PPM movements are overwritten by positional play, players do not try to attack free space or drop deep into space that is not occupied, even with PPMs and the instructions to roam and be more expressive. They stay in their position because of positional play. It makes the game way more static than it should be. The F9 role is stuck in between behaving like an AP and a regular poacher, he does not roam, does not attack channel, just drops a tiny bit but far from enough, and attack the defense centrally like a poacher with 6 OTB and anticipation. He half asses everything instead of being the mobile player he should be, collecting the ball, dribbling and attacking channels to create.

    Other than that, even the MEZ should recognize the free space behind him and PPM as well as instructions make it impossible for an attacking minded central midfielder to drop to collect the ball and run into space. Balde as a CWBa should recognize that there is a whole flank to run into, he has like 16-17 in work rate, the PPM to get further forward, and maybe even the PPM to beat offside trap (I think I gave it to him but not sure). Fati, as an IFs with sit narrower, should recognize that there is space to attack centrally when Messi drops. Also both Yamal and Fati should try to run behind the ball way more than they do right now.

    The defensive line, as well as the Gavi and De Jong, should recognize that the distance betwen them and the opp defensive line is too short, the pitch is too compact, and therefore they should recycle and start to create space between the opposition lines for the attacking line by dropping deeper. But right now, if you play a high d-line, your defensers will go as high possible, and therefore against an opposition high d-line the pitch is completely squished. Add to that the fact that every offensive players attack the space together and they rarely make runs in behind and you kill possession based tactic unless you play possession in your own half. Defensers and defensive midfielders should drop deep to create space, this is imperative to play tactics like Guardiola's, and this should not be linked to how high is your d-line out of possession. 

    Also, the offensive line lead by Pedri, Fati, Messi and Yamal feels like they are all effectively playing on one line and pushing all together simultaneously like they are all linked by an invisible line, to be honest it just feels like they came out straight of table foosball and they are linked by a metal bar. This is wrong on many levels, why are there duties and roles if at the end of the day, all offensive players behave the same?

    These issues could be remediated by:

    • having the CWBa attacking the defensive line sonner 
    • letting players with roaming from position bypass the positional structure, allowing players to quit their zone for a moment to go into zones occupied by other players in order to link up
    • having the F9 effectively dropping and collecting the ball more instead of trying to attack the def line and bypassing positional structure
    • blurring the line between support and attack duties, right now attack duties are somehow forbidden to drop to attack free space left behind
    • allow for more recycling of possession no matter where you are on the field, at least for positive mentality
    • allow the CBs and DMs, as well as the CMs (even the attacking ones) to drop deep to create space between lines
    • deleting this invisible metal bar that is present between players in the offensive strata
    • allowing for more nuanced movements in the offensive third, not everybody has to attack the area at the same time
    • allow for players to recognise free space and channels and leave their position to attack it intelligently
    • create more rotations between players in the offensive strata

     

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    Then it would be nice to see it change in this edition.
    I would really like to play with a free electron in the ST position, but it seems that every striker role I have tried so far behave approximately the same once we arrive in the final third. Sure, the CF-s, the TQ and the F9 sometimes drop a bit, but they make no impact whatsoever neither in the build up nor the progression phase, and therefore they snuff out every reasons to play these roles.

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    I understand that, however what does "tendency" mean? How frequent a behaviour has to be to be called a tendency?

    Is it dependent on the situation or at random?

    If it depends on a given situation, a player with a trait such as come deep to get ball, with a high decision attribute, should in principle recognize a propice situation to drop deep, and drop at least half of the time, otherwise can you really call it a tendency?

    Given this reasonning, the fact that the F9 role has it hard coded to drop deep, that my player also has the traits both to come deep and to like ball played into feet, and that I ticked the instructions roam from position and move into channels, why do I find my player playing so high during build up and progression, and pushing the defensive line with the same intent as an IF-a with traits to go further forward, get into opp area and to try to beat offside trap?

    Even without traits the F9, if I'm not mistaken, is a withdrawn striker that should drop deep in order to help dominating the midfield. But right now he doesn't and he isn't any different from any other striker roles on support duty. On another subject, I do not think that a F9 should lead the line in the final third and sit in the box because it negates all his technical attributes, he should leave the box or attack it as late as possible and be the prime target for cut backs.

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    Actually, I was curious if this issue was present in the last edition, so I decided to simulate 8 games in FM23 and FM24 against the same opposition with the same tactic and players, with no subs, using the save I imported from FM23, and re-simulating some blatant outliers. Because the amount of passes were in average a bit higher in FM23, I decided to look at the percentage of passes completed by the F9, as well as the percentage of combinations. The total number of combinations was computed to be twice the total number of passes completed.

    The results are quite interesting, and in average:

    - there were 18 more passes completed in total in FM23 than in FM24

    - the F9 combinations take 8.02% of the total share of combinations in FM23, while only 6.74% in FM24

    - the F9 completes 6.93% of total share of passes completed in FM23, while only 6.04% in FM24

    - the F9 does combines with other player 21% more in FM23 than in FM24 (with the PPMs to come deep and arrive late in box), completing 115.5 combinations in FM23 while only 94.7 in FM24. This difference is huge and shows how hard it is for the F9 to link up in FM24.

    The standard deviations and coefficient of variations are rather close in both games for both completed passes and combinations, although a bit higher in FM24. If they were significantly different, I'd run more than 10 games before drawing conclusions. But seeing that they differ by not much I think that 10 games should be enough.

    A final short test I've made on couple games show that the traits like ball played into feet increases slightly (I'd say 5 more passes and 10-15 more combinations in average) the amount of passes/combinations in FM23 but significantly reduces them on FM24 (I'd say 10-12 less passes and 20 less combinations in average). If I infer correctly, this PPM should push the F9 to collect the ball more in deep areas, and this works just fine in FM23. However on FM24 the F9 barely sees the ball because he does not drop as frequently or as deep.

    To be honest, even in FM23 the number of combinations completed by the F9 is rather low for a playmaker. In a system without playmakers and if we count the goalkeeper in, a naive calculation would state that every players should complete 9.09% of the total number of combinations. Of course it's not as easy because statistically DMs, FBs and CDs see way more of the ball share than other outfielders. However I would expect that a playmaker which is the heart of the team, and which should roam on almost the whole pitch, should complete at least 9.09% of the total number of combinations in a game. I reckon that this should be the lower bound on the F9's ball share, and 6.74% is definitely not enough.

     

    F9 passes comparison.xlsx matches FM24.rar matches FM23.rar

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    The game needs to be overhauled. It's not right to sell it given the amount of bugs there is.

    There is no role on the wings that attack the half space, even RMD, which means that W/IF/RMD/IW behave roughly the same.

    When using wingers, it is not possible to have WBs push further forward because wingers never leave the flanks. 

     

    Edited by skyzekaizo
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    It’s refreshing to see someone else with the same idiosyncrasies as me, with respect to this game. I’ve played many iterations of the game, trying to recreate the same desired F9 movement. I’ve tweaked stats and PPMs to see if i’ll get my desired conclusion. I’ve made tactics that register 650+ passes and the false 9’s contribution to that is somehow just in the late teens. the max i’ve seen is 24 passes. I’ve dropped him into the AM strata to try accommodate for the F9’s lack of movement but the result is the same, in fact worsened because we no longer have any pressure when opposing CB’s hold the ball. I’ve tweaked surrounding roles, the Team mentality and team width, because everyone will tell you roles operate on-towards the collective, the false 9’s individual mentality is too high or that it needs space to drop into. The regista ALWAYS roams from its position of a single DM pivot. something not seen in the DLP, normal DM, Anchor or HB. the mezzla LIVES in the half space. he almost exclusively stays in his respective channel. those are not tendencies, those are rules to the players’ roles. all professional footballers have tendencies to perform an action. Giroud can drop deep from time to time to link up play. and so can Icardi or Osimhem. For Messi that is a rule. Irrespective of what system he plays in or whether another player’s role might tell them to occupy the same space. HE DOES!! that is his defining trait, his preferred move!! If PPMs operated like this the community would struggle as there is always a reliance on attributes when considering recruitment. Player traits/PPMs should override individual instructions. When a trait compliments an individual instruction AND a team instruction the action should be almost habitual. players with high teamwork should have the right ‘character’ to have their habits (traits) become tendencies IF it doesn’t align to the tactical set up.

    And on the issue with Balde and Pedri not utilising space properly, players, the game, operates far too one dimensionally. Intelligent patterns escape them. I rarely see consistent rational patterns. I know it’s just 1s and 0s at the end of the day but I’d like to see my RPM with 15+ OTB, ANT, VIS and DEC exploit the space that has appeared yet again to progress our play. On that note, i also don’t see third-man-passes or actual one twos (despite sufficient players having the trait) explored. If you tried searching for it on the internet you’re met with discussions on the third man run; which is not the same thing. And the most common answer to the third man run is a CM(A) or Mez(A). Someone making lateral runs to receive a pass in the box. A solution that is too one dimensional.

    I’ve got many gripes but my biggest is with how the F9 operates as an AF. Has been like that for years. Have waited and hoped for it to be fixed but nothing at all. 

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