pats
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Posts posted by pats
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I like to manage mid to low table teams with ambitious to qualify for Europe in few years time. Any suggestions from Bundesliga, Serie A or La Liga?
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Play them on support but increase the team mentality so they have higher individual mentality even on support. Balance roles of other players accordingly so that you are still defensive overall. Also have less aggressive team instructions. For e.g. lower DL, lower LOE, less urgent pressing etc..
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Thanks for all the responses so far. One more observation regarding their tactics- they foul a lot but they don't go to ground while making tackles, so definitely no 'Get stuck in' instruction required. It simply means they apply intense pressure on the ball and get really tight while doing so, hence high amount of fouls. In FM terms this means very high intensity pressing TI. Basically their style is to use pressing as a defensive strategy rather than wanting to win the ball back to play their game.0 -
Has anyone able to recreate Jose Bordalas' Getafe tactics in FM20? Basically his tactics has these elements:
Defending:
- Always 4-4-2 shape.
- Extremely narrow and compact shape (both horizontally and vertically) while defending and attacking both. They just never lose their shape.
- Ball oriented pressing.
- Not allowing opponents to play their game. Disrupting the flow at every opportunity by applying constant pressure on the ball (not the men).
- Keep opponent away from their 18 yard box as much as possible.
- Lots of fouls. Due to extremely aggressive pressing.
- Very disciplined. Carry out Bordalas' instructions blindly.
Attacking:
- As mentioned above, extremely narrow shape. Always 4-4-2.
- As soon as they win the ball back, look for a vertical pass. Preferably to their 2 center forwards.
- Cross at every opportunity.
- Very disciplined. Carry out Bordalas' instructions blindly.
Some facts:
- Conceded least number of shots on target in the whole of top 5 European leagues last season. Man City were the second best.
- Most number of fouls and cards in La Liga last season.
- Bottom 5 in possession stats in La Liga last season.
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On 26/12/2019 at 08:02, cwc1 said:
Did you read the part where I stated I was playing with a balanced mentality and a low defensive line?
In what world is that known as being too offensive?
Your players take time adjusting to your tactical changes. Once they are familiar, they will be more responsive to your changes even on 'Much higher defensive line'.
Not that it matters to you but look at Mourinho and Tottenham combination in real life at the moment.
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I don't have any problem with the same setup as yours so you must be doing something wrong tactically.
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On 15/12/2019 at 22:03, Mitja said:
City doesnt play high line they play highest line at the moment, their DCs play well inside opponents half. Its a big difference and bad example. I dont think its even possible to play such high line in fm. Why would playing high line be such an issue? Except against top teams of course.
I have seen my CBs play well inside opposition half so that statement in bold is blatantly incorrect.
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1 hour ago, akinozcan said:
And no possibility a hotfix until Christmas?
A hotfix is for a game breaking bug. There is no game breaking bug in the ME at the moment, hence no 'hotfix'. There may be a 'patch' but only SI knows.
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What's disappointing and unrealistic to see is Man United in the top 4 in almost everyone's save I have seen so far.
Oh and just noticed they finished above Liverpool as well. What the actual fark?
I'm not surprised to see Wolves doing a Leicester in the game tbh. They are a very good team irl managed by a very good coach.
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1 hour ago, robinthebest said:
this is why i dont play anymore, why do I have to accommodate myself to an obvious ME issue, that ruined the fun of playing FM, playing the formation i desired, playing the way I want, i used to play with 4231 all the time, concede to counter attack sometimes, its fine
but now every game just concede 5-6 long ball and 1v1, although they couldnt score, i couldnt enjoy it anymore.
The system tried to keep the scoreline normal by nerfing 1v1, but long ball over the top happens so often, thats why we see so many missed 1v1, that's the problem of the ME, they compensate long ball bug by making 1v1 failing
The ME got wiser this year to the gung-ho tactics and duly punishing everyone for it. Just like in real life. You can do the same to AI too btw. If you see a high line, what will you do? Pass it around in your own half waiting for them to get back in shape so you can get hit on counter again?
The issue with ME imo is defenders not reacting to these balls in time. If that's improved, then it will be very interesting to watch matches in ME. I also think there should be less Toby Alderweireld and Virgil Van Dijk type passing in the game. At the moment my technique 6 defender can play a perfect pass sending my 11 acceleration striker through on goal against the opponent 13 anticipation and 14 acceleration defender.
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2 hours ago, robinthebest said:
it's okay man, the ME is perfect for u, I must be lying or playing a fake version of FM 20
Where have I said ME is perfect for me? I was just saying you need to adjust with each new version and it takes some time figuring out those adjustments.
Since you concluded ME is perfect for me, I would like to inform you that I have issues with ME myself. But I always try and see if I can do something to improve myself unless it's something officially accepted as a known issue, in which case I either wait for the fix if it's something I can't avoid (the determination bug and penalty bug for example) or I try to find an alternative way.
Your problem is absolutely tactical and I understand it may be hard to figure out the solution for you or you don't want to tweak it any further. Only you know the answer.
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3 hours ago, robinthebest said:
well my banned period on here has gone, and i tried to start a new season in the prem again this few days, first game of the season versus Everton.
Conceded 6 CCC which is 5 long ball over the top and 4 of them is Sigurdsson with 10 acceleration runs past my defenders just to put it wide
And 1 of them is Richarlison misses, does the ME team see the game how many over the top balls do a team usually concede
I immediately shut down my game after, it has no realism at all
By the way, I play with anchor man, and deep back line and balanced mentality
I can guarantee you if I played with an anchor man, deep back line and balanced mentality, my team would be lowest in CCC conceded in the league.
Restricting chances need much more if what you have tried is not working so far. In the beginning of a season you may concede more chances due to lack of team cohesion (not tactical familiarity), couter, conter pressing and marking instructions, player roles, duties etc..
I understand it's not easy for everyone to understand where they are going wrong but you need patience and will to learn to find out the behaviour of AI.
Finally, just because you have played FM for 50 years, doesn't give you automatic head star over AI. There would be no need for a new version otherwise. Believe it or not but every new FM comes with a 'learning curve' even for a seasoned veteran.
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The defenders (specially top defenders) randomly not reacting to the long balls allowing one on one to the inferior strikers is the single biggest disappointment at the moment. Yes, the high DL needs to be punished but it should look natural. Currently it looks as though the defenders are re-tard-ed which is main source of frustration.
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After playing 15-20 more matches, I also feel that the long passes are a bit too accurate and the defence reaction time to these long balls also looks a bit low. Only slight tweak is required in both these areas imo. Nothing too drastic.
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2 minutes ago, Bakiano said:
This ME has potential to be the best ever just need a couple of tweaks like reducing 1 on 1s and better conversation rate.
Just scored this goal:
What a goal! There's so much off the movement in that clip! It proves what the current ME is capable of.
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First of all, the guy who posted the video above in the feedback thread was really happy with the movement of the front three and the subsequent goal that was scored. This proves the guy didn't think there was anything wrong with the movement and he also didn't think the wide forwards were narrow. He may also have been using narrow tactics which requires players to overload the center.
Here is the original post in which the video was posted. The guy actually liked the ME:
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3 hours ago, Icy said:
I was one of the critics because no way to play short passing game and that there were no through balls nor strikers involvement but in my first game after the patch I just scored two goals I haven't seen before in FM20.
Both nice goals. Specially the first one. Nice movement between the front three and through ball for the first goal. Shows the improvement in current ME. You can achieve whatever style you want to play.
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The similar issue regarding full backs being wide open has been recognised as an issue by QA team and is currently under review.
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7 hours ago, JEinchy said:
After some initial grumblings with the game, I've found something that works for me and can't quite pull myself away. That's Football Manager for you. Just one more game...
Having played nearly two seasons with a myriad of different tactics, I feel confident in saying that this year's FM has made playing a high risk approach tricky. A few pages back, I posted the stats from a match I played that ended with nearly 30 shots a side, with about 15 CCCs between both teams. I kept the same tactic from that game and although I was winning, I was conceding about 20 shots a game, whether it was against a good side or a struggling team down at the bottom of the table. Obviously, this couldn't continue, so I thought about why this was happening and how we could tighten up and concluded my team were taking far too many risks and getting hurt far too often in transition. I made some tweaks, reduced the amount of risk my team was taking, and now have a team which creates chances without conceding a bunch. I have hit that "FM sweet spot" of around 15-20 shots and 55-60% possession per game.
This isn't a revelation, but it turns out, playing with a high defensive line, high line of engagement, counter-press, counter, mixed passing and a fairly high tempo, all on a positive mentality, creates a lot of turnovers and leaves my team out-of-shape and exploitable. I'm not saying this approach can't work, but in my experience, it's been one of the most punished set-ups in this year's FM and the number of players using it and struggling seems to support that. There are some ME issues that exacerbate this, too, such as some iffy final third decision making (the tendency for a player to shoot rather than wait for a run so he can pass is a lot worse playing with a high-risk set-up, for example) and slow reaction times from defenders (which I'm currently in the process of filing a bug report about, assuming nobody beats me to it) but I'm not here to talk about them.
Rather, I think a big issue is the ambiguity of the tactics creator and the advice which is given the player in-game. There's a disconnect between what the game says will happen and what actually happens. For instance, Positive mentality says its good for teams who are favourites, want to control possession and manage counter-attacks, but in reality it's an aggressive setting that sees a lot of direct passes, dribbling and shots, which are all scenarios that can lead to counter-attacks. It's a deceptive description which can trip up a lot of players because it's not clear they're taking a lot of risks by using it. What's more, that it's said to be for teams who are favourites is a misnomer because Positive and above mentalities are often used in successful counter-attacking systems, precisely because of the more aggressive risk-taking. Yet, if you wanted to build a counter-attacking system, players would instinctively choose Cautious because it's stated in-game to be a specific feature of that mentality. Cautious can certainly be used for counter-attacking, but it's not the counter-attacking mentality. It says it can facilitate aggressive counter-attacks, yet in actuality it lowers tempo and gives players a lower individual mentality. The names being changed from the old "Counter/Control" was good, but it really seems the descriptions weren't changed accordingly along with it and that doesn't help players make better decisions when building their tactics.
To compound this further, the team instructions editor will show the changes mentality has on passing, tempo, width, pressing and defensive line, but these do not show up in the sidebar as active instructions. So playing on Positive, my tempo is automatically set to Fairly High, but it's only when I set it to "Higher" that it'll appear in the sidebar. In this case, it's not immediately clear to players how mentality changes their approach. Stranger still, if I play on Balanced and increase tempo to "Fairly High", it'll show up as a TI. TIs decided by the user will appear, but the ones inherent to the mentality do not, and I think that creates unnecessary confusion.
This brings me on to the advice the player is given on how to approach games. My ass man will frequently suggest that I should play with an Attacking mentality, and then play with four/five attacking duties because that's "appropriate for such a mentality", but this is, frankly, complete and total bull. If Attacking already makes my team more aggressive and take more risks, why do I then need to add even more aggression and risk taking on top of that? In effect, the AI here isn't promoting well-balanced tactics - it's promoting the bad habit of doubling down and making things more extreme, which creates tactics that make very little sense. While the player is free to ignore this advice, I'm concerned AI managers are following the same logic and creating unbalanced set-ups. Obviously, there has to be some poor decisions because real life managers do the same, but there are top managers in-game who under-perform because of this (hello, Pep Guardiola).
I may put this in the features request, but I really think removing CCCs and Half Chances would be a step in the right direction. What the game determines to be a chance versus what the player determines to be a chance are too far apart for those stats to be worthwhile. My more successful teams in this series have never generated a lot of CCCs, by the game's definition, yet frequently win and score plenty of goals. This alone renders the stat pointless. It's existence causes a few other issues, too. Players playing only on Key or Extended highlights (which I feel like is the majority?) may judge their tactic on the generation of CCCs, but as we're seeing now, this is incredibly misleading. The game considers most 1v1 situations a CCC, but as has been pointed out, this isn't the case in reality - 1v1s are actually harder to score than they look. Meanwhile, a straight-forward tap-in from a cut-back is often not considered a CCC in game, despite this being one of the most common types of goals scored in real life. Players who fail to convert CCCs receive a penalty to their rating, which in turn effects a lot of other things, such as their confidence and body language, and the likelihood of them being subbed (it also leads to the infuriating "he should have done better/how did he miss that?" commentary line).
The game's assessment of chances is just weird in general. A player running onto a through pass to score is a routine move, but is often considered a "great solo effort" by the game and can even appear in goal of the month competitions. It seems any player that has to run more than 10 yards to get on the ball is deemed to be in the middle of a great solo goal. I have to wonder if this affects the quality of finishing at all; if it's not a case of the game deeming these chances more difficult, and therefore applying more inconsistent shooting to ensure that "great" goals aren't being scored all the time.
While I'm at it - and I've complained about this before - the player ratings system is too rewarding for players who score penalties and long-shots. Any player who scores a worldie or penalty gets a significant increase despite how poorly they play. I have had striker miss every chance and give the ball away at every turn, yet still end the game with a 7.5 because they buried a pen. To say nothing of an opposition player scoring a screamer within two minutes, and my ass man telling me to close him down because "he's pulling the strings" or "running the game". This is more of a syntax issue than anything, but I do feel feedback shouldn't be attached to player ratings at all. Or, if it has to be, then player ratings should not be so easily influenced by one-off events. If this was a case of the in-game media assigning the rating, then sure, that'd be added realism. However, player ratings play a significant part in player assessment, so I hope this can one day be addressed.
I think tweaks in these areas can really help make things easier for the player. Most of the time, problems come from the player not actually knowing what everything in games does and how it affects their team, which leads them to making unbalanced set-ups.
Excellent post. I would just like to add here that people were already spoiled by last year's overpowered nature of this kind of tactical setup - 'Positive mentality', 'Very high DL', 'Very high LOE', 'Extremely urgent pressing', 'Mark tightly', ' Get stuck in', 'counter', 'counter press', 'high tempo'.
Now that the above risky kind of setup is balanced in the ME and is getting punished more (rightly so, should be very hard to play like that in the first place), people are finding it hard to adapt IMO. Most of these setups now concede bucket loads of chances each game. As a result, users get frustrated but the problem is, rather than trying to reduce some of the extreme tactical instructions and trying to balance out their tactics, they come here to moan.
Should a simulation be berated for making you think and adapt? No. The tactical module was overhauled in FM19 and imo it took about a year to get polished. I'm sure the developers will continue to strive for perfection but it's certainly a much better and more balanced game this year imo. Far from being 'unplayable' or 'broken'. Based on my own playing experience so far.
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20 minutes ago, Mitja said:
Good luck you will need plenty. What have we achieved there in last two years?
Man you are like an activist. As soon as there is a negative comment, you are the first one to jump on it to support the guy. You actually haven't provided any feedback whatsoever. All you have done in this thread is just pick the negative comments and add your own without actually providing any feedback. And you are in the demo and don't actually own the game as per your own comments. May be you think you are 'putting pressure' on SI this way but this activist mentality is not going to work. Every time I visit this thread all I see is your comments on almost every page. You are basically living in the forum since beta release. No problem with that but you are doing nothing but moan, moan and moan. It's getting boring now. Either add some value in a constructive way or stop polluting the place.
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Noticing a pattern in this thread that most of the frustrated users are those who continued their save from before the last update. I personally just abandoned my last save after update and started the new save. I'm not experiencing the problems to the extent people are describing here. No where near. May be it's just my tactics.
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8 minutes ago, Mitja said:
So like fm19? Jesus. Too many crosses?
No. Not at all. It's purely tactical I can confirm. Also, they will only hoof it if they don't have options/ability/composure/lack of tactical familiarity and many more factors.
Also, you don't need to panic every time someone makes a negative comment. You simply can't judge the ME based on one or two matches.
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Just played a match where my defense mopped up several long balls which the opponent tried to exploit behind my defense. They only created 1 half chance and 0 CCC whole match so yes it is possible to defend long balls even on higher mentalities and adventures formation if your setup is right. Here was my set-up:
- 'Positive' mentality with '4-2-4 extremely wide width formation'
- 'Standard defensive line'
- 'Standard line of engagement'
- 'Regroup'
- 'Hold shape'
- 'More urgent' pressing intensity
- 'Standard defensive width'
I won 3-0
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Football Manager 2021 Early Access Beta Official Feedback Thread
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted
Are there any new player roles or changes to existing player roles this year?