pats
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Posts posted by pats
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If AI can handle vanilla MR/L roles, then why can't it handle vanilla AMR/L roles? I just don't understand the thinking behind it. It also seems like with hard-coded instructions like 'cross more' and 'run wider', more attention is given to lower league football then modern football. It frustates me that I can't replicate Pep and Enrique's wide players without compromising my other team and player instructions.
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On 22/09/2021 at 14:43, Tsuru said:
Maybe a FB-Su with the overlapping/underlapping TI on that side and some individual instructions can do that - I think on a Balanced mentality he would have a Positive individual mentality, for example. I believe that with a good partner on the same flank or even alone the right player could do very well, even though it looks like an improvised solution.
Regarding "natural" game roles, WB-D, IWB-S and FB-At maybe are the nearest to what you are describing. But I agree that a "modern fullback" role is missing on the game, something like a "Complete Fullback".
Agree. Modern full back and modern wide forwards both are missing from the game.
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Anyways, I'll work with what tools are available in the game and try to replicate the way I want to play.
Here's the next update on my season:
So our dream run of clean sheets ended and we conceded in 4 consecutive matches. There could be multiple reasons for this:
- My 31 year old CB wanted a new 3 year contract and I was only willing to give him 1 year + optional 1 year. He rejected it, became unhappy and complained to one or two others disrupting the morale slightly.
- Played few kids in defense for roation and giving chances to promising prospects in a Europa league match against the weakest team.
- Experimented a little with width and few tactical options.
I then analysed my results and tactics so far this season and realized we were not controlling matches with possession but rather by solid defense. My aim here is to dominate matches by posession though so I now have to make further tactical tweaks. This is what I want:
- I want to dominate and control possession by stretching teams using width and depth. But with 'standard width' + 'short passing', my players are not always finding each other with passes. You need your playes to be close together to be available for short passing so a slightly narrow width is needed. I will then stretch teams using roles and duties like mezzala's, wide midfielders and full backs with 'stay wide' instructions etc..
- You need lots of movement to achieve meaningful possession and move defending teams all over the pitch. To achieve this without using 'Be more expressive' TI, I need to tick 'roam from position' individually for my midfielders and forward.
- The center backs with CB role hoof and clear too much. If you want them to take some risks and play their way out of trouble, you need to give them BPD roles. And no, that won't them play long passes unless they have poor technique. They will play sensibly.
I already tried the above 3 changes in my last match and I was finally satisfied with how I wanted my team to play. They dominated the match by moving the opposition all over the pitch and scored 2 beautiful goals by manufacturing the space like the Spanish way.
Here's the tweaked tactic:
Match stats for the last match I played:
Heat map (See the problem with pulling back the forwards to midfield slots? I want my #6 and #7 to be higher than my mezzalas. Closer to my forward):
)
Updated results so far:
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Let's see the available roles in AMR/L slots and their behavior:
W: Has hard coded dribble more and run wide.
IW: Has hard coded dribble more and cut inside.
IF: Has hard coded dribble more and cut inside. Also take more risks. What if I don't want my inside forwards to take risks. Don't we have center forward roles which take less risks? Why not at AMR/L?
AP: Plays in the center and ball magnet. Completely different.
T: Only available with attack and doesn't contribute much to defense. Very specialized role with all kinds of hard-coded instructions.
Raum: Same as T.
WTM: I don't want my team to go look for this guy at every opportunity. I also don't want any outlet for long balls and clearances. I play with short passing.
So why can't there be a role called 'Wide forward' (WF), who we can just ask to 'stay wide', 'get further forward' and keep it simple like PF or poachers?
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1 hour ago, Burbian De Bay said:
I have recently experimented with the Wide Midfielder role in a flat 4-4-2 formation. It is an incredible flexible role in my opinion. My WMa often acts like an IF, and it works very well when counter-attacking. Maybe WMd/s is what you are looking for?
Agree. See my reply above.
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21 minutes ago, Luizinho said:
A Winger has dribble more hardcoded. They will dribble with the ball regardless of the team instructions.
The wide players should 100% be in the MR/L slots.
When you put players in the AMR/L slots, they’re essentially wide forwards. Which I would assume is not what your looking for?
I want supporting wide forwards who can decide for themselves whether they want to dribble or not and whether they want to dribble wide or cut inside. Currently there is no role available in FM in AMR/L slot which achieves that. You can not replicate in FM how Ferran Terras is currently used by Luis Enrique in real life. He just sits as high and wide as possible most of the time and has pass first mentality. He very rarely dribbles. To replicate this behavior to some extent in FM, you need to make compromise and pull AMR/L back to MR/L and use the customized wide midfielder role.
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I just conceded in my last 2 matches due to rotation and tactical changes. One was a 4-2 win and other was a 1-1 draw.
I'm still not fully satisfied with my tactics though. Even with 'Dribble less' team instructions, my wingers are still dribbling from the deep too much at every opportunity. I want them high and wide but with 'pass first' mentality just like Ferran Torres with Luis Enrique's Spain. I want them to only start their dribble once they are around the final third. I also don't want them to play as IW or IF because I want them to remain wide and cross/pass from byline to provide for my forward and other players arriving in the box. Any ideas/suggestions how I can solve this?
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39 minutes ago, bosque said:
It surprises me you don't have problems with a high block + tighter marking. Are your defenders very good for that instruction? Because maybe teams will try balls over the top, leading to shots on goal.
I reckon the 'Balanced' mentality takes care of that. Anything higher and we would have had problems with balls over the top, but not with 'Balanced'.
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Ok, here is my tactics (see the explanation below the pic):
Both wingers and both my fullbacks are told to 'Hold position' so they don't bomb forward at every opportunity. We need them to be conservative about their runs and only make runs when chances of success are higher than when runs are forced by the tactics or their PPM.
Both box to box midfielders are told to 'move into channels' to utilize available spaces out wide when wingers are in the box in the final third.
As I said in my previous posts, a goal scorer is very important not only to score important goals but to stretch defenses. Your striker just need to be a good finisher. We don't need him to be tall or fast. Good heading accuracy is important though. I prefer a poacher type player here.
No 'work ball into box' is used because we have already asked players to play on 'Hold shape' in addition to 'slow tempo' and 'dribble less'. 'Hold shape' is very important. We don't want lot of running or counter attacks for that matter. Our philosophy is to play creative football with technical players. Having said that, if I'm leading by 2 goals, I sometimes use 'work ball in the ball', raise 'time wasting' to highest and tempo to lowest settings.
All 5 of my midfielders are dimunitive, lightweight but very technical. They are also very hard working (at least 13 work rate) . The tactics won't work with lazy technical players. (We need more David Silva's , not Mesut Ozil's)
As with every tactics, PPM's are important. You want intelligent, agile and technical players not pace and power merchants. Passing needs to be short and simple. I'm currently teaching lot of my player 'plays short simple passes' PPM.
Let me know if you have any questions, feedback people!!!!!!
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47 minutes ago, Luizinho said:
I would actually lean the other way. I'd have 2 or 3 playmakers.
Yes I was wrong about not having any playmakers. I'm using at least one right now. I could use more but then the thing with these kind of tactics is to have multiple goal threats otherwise you will find it hard to break teams down. Remmber, winning is priority first and foremost!
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3 hours ago, duesouth said:
@pats Any chance you could post a screenshot of your tactic? I'd be really interested to have a look at it. I did something similar with a 4-1-4-1 in FM19 - tended to result in too many 0-0 scores though!
The key is to have a goal scorer always. Even Spain had Villa and Torres and only had success with false 9 when all their midfielders played together for so long that they had telephatic understanding between them.
I'll post my tactics soon.
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Sorry about my minor absence from this thread for 6-7 months.
Life came in the way between me and FM but I still kept playing here and there. Didn't post much here because I wasn't satisfied with my tactics. Now I have another save going which will hopefully fulfil my objective of boring teams to death whilst still winning. Here are the season 02 results so far for my Koln save in Bundesliga.
As you can see, 11 clean sheets in 11 matches is impressive even though 6 of them were friendly matches. And even though the midfield and forward line personnel has seen a lot of changes this season along with tactics, we are still getting what we are looking for. The key to these results in my opinion is the stable back 5 with some strong leaders in Timo Horn, Jonas Hector, Sebastian Bornauw, Rafael Czihos and Noah Katterbach.
Tactics is my own 4-3-3 control possession on 'Balanced' mentality. We have hardly allowed a shot on target so far which makes me happy. Will try to post more updates as I progress more into the season.
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Nice thread. Just one question. Do the OIs apply to set-pieces as well? For example, if I set the opposition CBs to be never tight marked and closed down, will they be left loose on set-pieces as well?
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18 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:
So you want to be the Spain team that bored everyone to tears earlier this century?
Yes, that's pretty much the plan. I have started watching videos of Spain's Euro 2012 matches to study their methods.
18 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:It should be interesting. Although I think aiming to win 1-0 is a little risky. You can be boring and score 2 goals!
Yes, I would not go more conservative unless I'm at least 2 goals up. Sitting on 1-0 is too risky for me too.
I'm going to post screenshots of my tactics and some results soon.
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42 minutes ago, Jean0987654321 said:
Oooohhh... this reminds me of my previous attempt at Emulating De Zerbi's tactics.
If you're gonna do that, high time-wasting and lowest tempo possible is a good start. Obviously, Shorter Passing and Play Out Of Defense are important there. I would also recommend trying to win the ball back high up the field as well (so High Line, High Pressing)
Cheers! We are close here.
- Positive mentality (to play mostly in the middle third to final third)
- 4-5 defend duties (to avoid getting caught on the counter and giving away attempts at goal)
- Shorter passing (to keep it simple)
- Balanced attacking width (to find space wherever it is available)
- Much lower tempo (patience is key!)
- High time wasting (if the ball is not in the field of play, no shots on goal + time to recover stamina)
- Hold shape (no counter attacking as it will give the ball away)
- Be more disciplined (Follow my tactics, do what I want, don't do your own things
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- Higher LOE, Higher DL, More urgent pressing (be intense but not too much, just hassle them enough so they can't choose a meaningful option)
- Tighter marking (don't make them a good passing option, don't give them time to shoot)
- Defend much narrower/Force them wide (Pack the center, if the ball is not in the center, you can't attempt shot at goal)
- Dribble less (just keep passing so the risk of losing the ball can be reduced. Only wingers are allowed to dribble if they are good at it)
- Play with wingers on attack duty on both sides (so they can run with the ball near the touchline, forcing the opposition to tackle them so the ball goes out of play for throw-ins. I have tried this and found 25-30 throw-ins every match makes it very useful for time wasting+stamina recovery)
- No playmakers (they try their own things too much, keep it simple)
.... to be continued
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UPDATE 26 Sep 21:
First of all have a look at this sensational 65 pass Guardiola-esque team goal. Pep should be proud!
Now on to the thread origin:
So after trying many different challenges over the years, I have decided to start a new save (FM21) with the aim of playing the most boring football ever. By boring, I mean a 1-0 victory every match with my only shot on target and 0 shots on target for the opponent (this is important!). I want to put everyone to sleep including myself.
Here are some of my tactical considerations so far:
- I want to restrict shots at my goal so 'parking the bus' won't work as the opponent will be playing too close to my goal and inevitably there will be shots at goal.
- When I win the ball back, keep it for as long as I can so the opposition can't have it.
- I would still try to attack but patiently and sensibly. No unforced risks shall be taken.
- The tactics should be able to work with minimal adjustments regardless of opponent approach. i.e. it should work with sitting back and gengenpressing opponents both and with only slight adjustments.
- I'm thinking I can't foul a lot as the set-pieces encourage shots at goal. I want to win the ball mostly cleanly and just far enough from my goal.
- As an example, I am thinking a 'Balanced' or 'Positive' mentality will be good with a 4-1-4-1 kind of formation so that we can defend in numbers and keep the ball well when we win it back.
I have many more ideas and have already tried some of them but I would like to know the ideas and opinions of all the other tactical masterminds over here. How would you guys go about achieving this kind of style?
Edit 1:
More tactical considerations:
- Positive mentality (to play mostly in the middle third to final third)
- 4-5 defend duties (to avoid getting caught on the counter and giving away attempts at goal)
- Shorter passing (to keep it simple)
- Balanced attacking width (to find space wherever it is available)
- Much lower tempo (patience is key!)
- High time wasting (if the ball is not in the field of play, no shots on goal + time to recover stamina)
- Hold shape (no counter attacking as it will give the ball away)
- Be more disciplined (Follow my tactics, do what I want, don't do your own things
)
- Higher LOE, Higher DL, More urgent pressing (be intense but not too much, just hassle them enough so they can't choose a meaningful option)
- Tighter marking (don't make them a good passing option, don't give them time to shoot)
- Defend much narrower/Force them wide (Pack the center, if the ball is not in the center, you can't attempt shot at goal)
- Dribble less (just keep passing so the risk of losing the ball can be reduced. Only wingers are allowed to dribble if they are good at it)
- Play with wingers on attack duty on both sides (so they can run with the ball near the touchline, forcing the opposition to tackle them so the ball goes out of play for throw-ins. I have tried this and found 25-30 throw-ins every match makes it very useful for time wasting+stamina recovery)
- No playmakers (they try their own things too much, keep it simple)
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Thanks for the great work on the pitch texture!
Just one question though. Is there anyway I can increase pitch brightness in my current save without adjusting it via monitor? It's too dark in day matches and I can hardly see anything without increasing my monitor brightness all the way up to max.
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In FM21, how do I know which mentality my opponent is using during a match? In the previous versions, I could see from the formation widget what mentality teams were using by the title of the formation like 'Positive 4-1-4-1', 'Cautious 4-4-2' etc.. but this year, although I can see the formation, I can't see the title of the formation during a match.
Sorry if this has been asked before, I can't find anything from the search. Either that or I am a bit lost in the new match UI design.
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Good positioning and anticipation could be a factor. The wing back may be finding himself in good positions to make a tackle most of the time.
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Wow that's impressive by AI. What's their formation and manager's tactical preferences?
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Are there more injuries, fitness drop or some kind of penalty for using gegenpressing 24x7 in FM21 though?
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Are these observations from friendly or early season matches? Because if that's the case, then lack of team cohesion might me affecting the decision making of the players.
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Wow.. 71% find it too easy. Can't be a coincidence.
Count me in 'too easy' camp as well.
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The 'We will bore you to death by passing' tactical challenge (UPDATE: Scored a 65 pass goal)
in Tactics, Training & Strategies Discussion
Posted
Cheers. As with any other possession based tactics, you need players with good technique, vision and movement. Of course tactical familiarity is important too as the players need to learn about each other's movement and strength. You also need to have a confident goal scorer up front unless your players are playing with each other for a long time. This tactics does not create lot of chances but rely on that moment of magic, that one killer pass or an intelligent run to unlock the defense. It will work well if the players get a full pre season under their belt with a settled squad. Finally, no team can do well consistantly without at least one or two strong leaders. It's very important.