[Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread]

59 minutes ago, roykela said:

In-game i've been with Roma for 2 or 3 matches, after moving from Rosenborg - Norway.
So this will not have been on full detail.

Aaah, there it is. It was too weird to be true, I'd be going insane if that wasn't the case 

[Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread]

59 minutes ago, Muja said:

Are you actually managing in Serie A, or is it simulated in background? You can check this easily if you try to view a match. In the latter case you won't be able to.
I'm asking you this because I've noticed that in my save, the top assist-men list in the Bundesliga is realistic-looking like yours (Havertz is often at the top of the list), but it's been simulated so no real match has been actually played by the ME.
Maybe when the ME is not directly involved the game returns more realistic results with more variety.

P.S.
In which year are you playing, dude?? They're all regens!
Or did you start a new game without real players?

Never mind that, I see now you're managing Roma.

This is mind-boggling. So it's just my save? For three years in a row?

[Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread]

1 hour ago, roykela said:

This is Serie A March 31st 2040 in my game. Top 20 players with assists. 31 rounds have been played. Well, there are 4 teams on 30 games but that's probably because it's a Saturday.
Not trying to prove anything for nor against. Just saw that bolded part and decided to boot up my own save to see what it looked like. This was the result.





 1. Brckovic - MC - AP
 2. Leo - MC - DLP
 3. Company - MR - W/DW
 4. Poli - MC - DLP
 5. Kostic - AMR - W
 6. Camino - MC - AP/RP/DLP
 7. Anchila - DMC/MC - DLP
 8. Di Mauro - MC - DLP/CM
 9. Lucumi - AMC - AP/AM
10. Noah - ML/AML - W
11. Diaz - AMC - AM/AP/SS
12. Da Rosa - AML - IF/IW
13. Villaruel - DMC - DLP
14. Silva Souza - AMR - IW/IF
15. Urbini - ML/AML - IW/WP
16. Kirev - CM - DLP
17. Carnevale - CM - DLP
18. De Fraia - FB/MR/AMR - CWB/W
19. De Lange - SC - AF/P
20. Valdir - SC - AF

Are you actually managing in Serie A, or is it simulated in background? You can check this easily if you try to view a match. In the latter case you won't be able to.
I'm asking you this because I've noticed that in my save, the top assist-men list in the Bundesliga is realistic-looking like yours (Havertz is often at the top of the list), but it's been simulated so no real match has been actually played by the ME.
Maybe when the ME is not directly involved the game returns more realistic results with more variety.

P.S.
In which year are you playing, dude?? They're all regens!
Or did you start a new game without real players?

[Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread]

6 hours ago, Cadoni said:

Nice movements.

I have see it from my team, about 2-3 times during the whole season.

 

Since I've been quoted...

On 25/03/2020 at 14:25, 91427 said:

Any solution to the lack of central chance creation? Any way in the in-game editor to make opposition defences not play ridiculously narrow every game? 

I don't think anymore it's about width. It's about depht. Through balls are rare by default, but If the opponents are defending deep you can absolutely forget about them. The ME registers there's not enough space behind the defense - even though, visually, there is - and that's it.
This has been confirmed for me by @Zemahh's gifs.

Look here:

And here:


The opponent's defense is playing very high in both examples, that leaves space behind it to exploit.
But once the opponents perceive you as a dangerous opponent they'll never defend that high again. They'll park the bus. And that's when the struggle begins.
That's when this behaviour start to appear:



In this GIF you can see my AMC having not one, but TWO perfect chances to play a through ball... but he does not, both times he passes the ball backwards.

This one especially:

There's NO reason why 28Blue should not make a through ball for 7blue. But he does not.
What's the big difference? The defense's depht. In this instance they're defending deep, so for the ME there's no chance to play a through ball. 
I'm quite convinced this is the problem.
 

1 hour ago, Zemahh said:

Here, have some more lies about strikers scoring goals:

With a decent number of assists coming from through balls straight through the middle:

Currently in January, but will gladly update you again at the end of the season.

Don't let me interrupt your whinging sir, carry on! 

Don't take it the wrong way, @Zemahh, but this doesn't really prove what you're trying to prove.
The analysis of my team's assist look exactly the same. 


Apparently, I'm scoring a lot from through balls too, right?
But that's actually wrong, I can't exactly explain why but this doesn't correspond to the truth at all.
My AMC especially (in 4-3-1-2) has been performing poorly for 3 years in a row.

What does the game register as "through ball" I can't say (maybe free kicks? long passes? I don't know), but what I "SEE" is quite different from what I read in this analysis.

What I SEE in most of my games, is this:

Very few passes from the middle to the center of the box (in this case, there are NONE). Even though I've instructed my players to play through the centre.

I think the last picture makes it painfully evident that there's a problem with central play.

What's more, there's really a much simpler evidence. Just check the top assist-men list of the league in your current save, do it right now - they'll all be wingers and fullbacks, with almost no exception. Then compare it with the one in the real world - in Serie A most players in that list are AMC or even CC. 

This is enough proof that this problem affects every single A.I. team too. 

It's a real problem, one we need SI to aknowledge because the game's illusion of realism suffers quite a lot from it. 

[Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread]

Guys, I've created a topic in the bug/ME section of the forums to discuss the problem about the lack of central play. Made lots of test and decided to share my "findings", in the hope they could prove useful for the devs, even if a little.

If anyone wants to contribute or add any other insights and/or ideas on how to solve this, that'd be great

[Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread]

13 hours ago, chris31k said:

I think you're missing the point. If ME calculates that playing trough the middle against a defensive packed team is impossible, that's totally fine. It's dumb to try to break a low defensive line well placed with play through the middle. The ME behavior is totally natural and realistic. The problem is that parking the bus is a very demanding tactic. Not every team is Mourinho's inter. If you lose your concentration just a second it can be deadly because the opponents are very high in your own half. That's the problem of FM, the problem that you talk about. Lack of punishment for choosing an extreme tactic. It's the same problem when you go for an attacking gegenpress : you're not enough punished for playing such a risky tactic.

I don't know if you were talking to me specifically, but that was actually my point, I agree with you. 
A deep and narrow defense should defend well against through balls, it's true, but they shouldn't be able to NULLIFY that threat completely for 90 minutes. Especially if their defensive side is weaker than your offensive side. 

 

12 hours ago, kandersson said:

@Muja that looks like a through ball from AMC to striker in a 4312... the holy grail of FM 

Ahah that's exactly right! How I love such a play! 

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You have to remember that just because you have set the AI to defend wide, this doesn't mean its players are all going to start standing further away from each other leaving pockets of space open. Defending wide simply instructs the team to try and deny easy access down the flanks, which means they will try and close down or tackle players there. Everything in this match engine is relative as well, so if the opposing team is playing narrow and encouraging passes inside, then the positioning of the defending team will also be relative to the attacking team. This means they will still stand relatively close.  You can see when the No 3 fullback gets up the pitch, he is immediately closed down.

That's a very interesting point, Rashidi, and it really helped me to better understand how it works.
I said earlier that defensive width doesn't matter, but that might not be completely true, I guess it's a combination of the widht and defensive line values. 

The thing is that, whatever the tactical instructions of the opponent, if you win the possession battle you'll eventually cage your opponents in their half, and then the players positions look exactly the same, wether they're defending narrow or wide, deep or high. 
Visually the difference is minimum, the space behind the defenders it's still there, but probably the ME is calculating that there's no such space and it stops the creative players from even trying that option.

Which brings me to another gripe I have with the game: the visual in-game feedback.
If I tell my player to try more risky passes, he should do that. And that's it. Now, if there's no space behind the defense, I should see all this through balls being intercepted by the keeper or the defenders. Instead I see my players not even trying that option, because the ME's calculations say it ain't possible, and then they pass on the flank and my tactics gives birth to the crossing game even though I wanted the exact opposite. 

For another example , that's true for short passes from your defenders, too: if they can't see a free teammate in front of them, they hooff the ball forward. Instead they should make a short pass and fail it.

This kind of feedback would feel "fair", because the players are evidently making mistakes based on your instructions, and it would also let you see with extreme clarity what is wrong with your tactics.

... Now let me add that okay, I'm being very critical, but that's what this post is for, right?
In the end I quite love the game, having lots of fun with it, I'm here specifically because I love it so much and I see the potential for it to be even better.

[Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread]

Guys, I've made a test. 
I've also saved the pkm for this test, and I'll make a more comprehensive post in the bug/ME section of the forum, in the hope that it can help the devs to figure this out. 

For now, I'll just say I played a match while controlling both teams, one on the offensive, focusing play in the middle of the pitch, the other one defending high and wide.

And voila:


This is a fine example of the possession style of football, based on short passes and slow tempo. This is what some of us want our teams to do consistently.
Players patiently pass the ball to each other until one of the creative players find the chance for a beautiful killing pass.

I said "consistently" because that's the problem here. This kind of play is too rare. I've played two seasons and I've never seen it ONCE. I had to simulate a game against a wide, high defense for this to finally happen. 
And then the AMC, who's always struggled to get a decent rating until now, is finally making decisive passes and creating chances. My forward with good off-the-ball movements  and finishing skills finally puts them to good use. 

But let's watch the gif carefully, everybody... Does it seem to you like the red team is defending wide, or particularly high..?
It really doesn't. It's congested in the middle and getting very defensive. That's the whole point of this kind of possession style, you WANT to "cage" the opponents inside their half ot the field, because that's when this kind of magic can happen.

And yet the ME calculates that their defense is high because of the tactics settings, calculates that there's space behind the defense and then it decides that such a play is possible, and it happens.

Unfortunately this NEVER happens if the opponents's tactic is to sit deep. (It doesn't have anything to do with width, as I've made another test with the same team defending high and narrow, and this kind of play still happened).

The problem is that when a team is defending too deep, the ME calculates that there's no space behind them, that such a play isn't possible. Hence the players shoot from distance, or pass to the wingers, or lose the ball altogether. Hence why central creative player struggle to perform, while the best assist-men in the league are wingers and fullbacks.

Devs just need to find a way to make this calculations more in favour of through balls, so that yeah, a team defending deep is stronger against them, but cannot and will not totally prevent them. This kind of perfect defense isn't real.

In reality, when a team is pressured inside their own half for a whole match, they eventually tire, lose focus and/or make a mistake.
That's in the description of the "tiki-taka" style, too.
The problem lies in this sentence: "waiting for space to open up as opponents lose focus".
It simply never happens.






 

[Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread]

2 hours ago, ferrarinseb said:

To an extent yes @Muja You can edit preset tactics of AI managers with IGE. Editing their Sitting back line and Width line of AI manager it can make them not sitting deep and Possibly not narrow as well. 

I've just bought the in-game editor, fiddling with it now... are you more experienced with it? Is there a way to, for example, reduce by 5 the sitting back and width stats for ALL managers in-game without doing it manually for each one of them?

[Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread]

Anyway, I concur stars may be misleading. 

I want to focus on the lack of central play, though.

I've got to a point I'd like to edit the preset tactics of all the AI managers so they don't always sit deep and narrow that much (can it be done?)

[Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread]

1 hour ago, thiagoanjo said:

So the league where you are doesnt make any difference in the stars? If your player in the Serie A are 3,5 stars at your squad, he can be poor for Serie A? 

I think the stars represent the player's abilities compared to your GOAL for the current season.

If your goal is to escape relegation and your players have 5 stars, it means he's very good for THAT, not that he's among the best players in the league.

So, for example, in my save I manage Empoli in Serie A, and my striker Zaza has 4 stars. He'd have at least a star less if I was managing Juve

[Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread]

If you need proof for the lack of central play, look no further than this:

Only a few games left before the end of the season, this is the list of the top assist-men of the league. 
They're all wingbacks and wingers, those who play on the side of the field. 
There's no single AMC player in that list, or even central midfielder for that matter, except for Stulac (but he's my player and I know he made those assists with set pieces).

The list of the top assist-men in the current Serie A season is quite different, As shown here.
Luis Alberto, Gomez, Pellegrini, Kulusevski, Bentancur, most assistmen play in the center of the field, almost all of them play as AMC in real life, and much of these assists are short through pass from just outside the box.

I'm enjoying the game but I think the current ME is failing to represent realistic central play because defenses sitting deep and narrow seems impossible to break with a central through pass, while it shouldn't be THAT difficult.
Besides, you can see it's not a "it's your tactic" problem, as it affects all the teams of the league, mine and AI's.

[EDIT]
Another thing that it's breaking the game's realism for me, is... (and this will unsettle most players, I'm sure) 

... tactics matter too much.

There, I've said it.
I'm managing Empoli in Serie A, freshly promoted... And I'm third after 34 games, I know I'm good but I shouldn't be THAT good, my players skills shouldn't allow us to be up there (and trash all bigger italian teams) even if Pep Guardiola himself was the coach instead of me. 
I expected a challenge to survive relegation, not to play in the Champions League the next year...

 

[Has anyone managed to make a (winning) tactic that doesn't use crosses?]

Thank you, everyone, for your input!

I've tried various things in the meanwhile.
 

On 02/09/2019 at 18:16, Piperita said:

A playmaker instructed to hold position (e.g. Enganche) together with at least one attacking player running into the box hard

@Piperita your suggestion to use an AMC with the "hold position" instructions really made things better. A little. Problem is, I'm not using the 4231 wide formation, as I don't have the players for that.
 

On 02/09/2019 at 16:51, herne79 said:

But we have no idea how you are trying to play so posting your tactical system would be a big help if you want advice.

@herne79 you're right, I didn't post my tactic because I was actually looking for some examples of this strategy done right (and mine wasn't ).

Anyway, I've attached my current tactic here.
It's a 442 diamond. I've read somewhere this is the hardest formation to setup in FM2019, but I don't really have any other choice with this roster.
I've put both my WB on defend, so they can give support to the midfield but they won't run down the flanks. 
My two tops, a forward and a poacher, will give the chance to try some direct passes to them, if the opponents leave any space behind their defense, as they both will attack that space. With an attacking mentality, this works quite well.

As you can imagine, I'm having lots of possession with this tactic. But it's pretty much sterile, especially when the opponents are parking the bus. We'll close them in their half of the pitch, but we rarely find the chance for a defense splitting through ball.

Any suggestion? How could I change this tactic?
Or is it completely off, and I should recosinder everything from scratch..?

Thanks again, guys!

 

[Has anyone managed to make a (winning) tactic that doesn't use crosses?]

Hello everyone, I'm here to ask you guys for help again because, apparently, I very much suck at this game.

In my current save I'm managing Lecce, in italian Serie B. After 20 games I'm second in the league, very close to first place. I win lots of games, draw a few one, only lost one time. My board is extremely happy, my fans love me.

.... and I feel very miserable because I'm winning but I'm not playing "good" football. Or, at least, not what I *think* is good football. 

When I started the save, predictions put my team in the low-middle place of the league. So, my opponents underestimated me. And I scored mainly like this:



(as the gif says, the games calls these kind of passes "through passes" but they're NOT.  At least, I'd call these "passes over the defense", or "long passes")

After I got my first wins, though, lower teams started to approach me more cautiously. Meaning, they started to park the bus. My previous tactic became therefore useless, and the opponents defense didn't leave any space behind them to exploit anymore.

So, a few tweaks and a few draws, and I started to win again! But now most of my goals come from set pieces, corners, and crosses. An insane amount of crosses. God, how much I hate crosses.



I really hate crosses. I consider this kind of football very old-fashioned. Besides, you need a very tall and strong forward to make it work. And in Lecce I don't really have any. 
... I still score from crosses, somehow, but that's not the point.

I want to play in a different way! I want to see one-twos and through passes in the middle of the pitch! I want my AMC to shine and use his creative skills!
I've tried everything, anything. but I simply can't. Even if I try to make a narrow formation, in the end all of our plays will end with crosses. And if I refuse to use crosses, well, good luck. I lose.

This is what happens in most of my games when I have the ball


The other team parking the bus is not a problem for me. On the contrary, I almost want this. But when I'm in this moment of the game, what happens is that if I have fullbacks/wingers, they're mostly free and they'll receive the ball (and the cross).
If I don't have players on the flanks, I will simply lose the ball.

But what I want to happen is this:


... or at least, I'd like to see the AMC try this solution, and fail the pass, or see the opponents intercept it. 
But my AMC doesn't even try to make that pass. Even though I tell my team to work the ball into the box, to play through the middle, to underlap. They don't even TRY.





Before you say that Lecce is a very bad team (and you'd be right),  too bad to make this kind of football, please consider that in Serie B there aren't many teams that are better. 
Consider that in real life Lecce got promoted to Serie A. 
Playing this kind of football.

You don't need Iniesta and Messi to do this.
World class players can make this strategy astounding and clinical, but in reality it's not that hard to pull of. It's simple "pass and go", coaches teaches it to you when you're 12.

Blackburn Rovers can do it. And they don't have Iniesta nor Messi. And the opponents are parking the bus.

... So, excuse me for the long post. In the end I even vented a little. but I'm really frustrated by my inability to do this. I've tried EVERYTHING.

So, has anybody been able to make a tactic that succesfully uses this strategy instead of the crossing game?
And could I please have a look at it, so I can learn a few things from you?