[Gian Piero Gasperini at Atalanta Case Study]

On 01/11/2021 at 21:00, Fantasista10 said:

It is looking quite promising but I am reserving some judgement until the full release but so far it’s produced some exciting football! Just a matter of tinkering with the roles of the front 3 (specifically the Gomez role) to get the desired movements. 
 

And you’re right about pressing - it isn’t viable to press so high and intensely for the whole game.
 

I’d be happy to share the tactic and some results once I’ve done some more testing if anyone is interested. 

So, I know I said previously I'm waiting until the full release and to test it further blah blah blah... 

But I think I've created something that is already worth sharing. This probably isn't the finished article and I would expect to make some tweaks when the full game is released and hopefully some ME bugs/issues are resolved, however this is the closest I have come to a Gasperini recreation that has produced some great football and results.

Here's the main tactic currently:

There are some quite obvious similarities between this and the OP's recreation, mostly because a lot of @SixPointer's great work still applies in FM22. However, I'll try and break down some key aspects and what I think are non-negotiable for this style in the current ME.

Mentality - Attacking

First up, and probably the most important thing, is selecting the Attacking mentality. For years, I've almost exclusively created tactics on Positive mentality as for me it perfectly balances risk and reward when creating possession orientated systems. However, Gasperini's side don't keep possession for possessions sake. As with most Total Football sides - and in my opinion GpG's style of play is greatly influenced by that school of football - we need intent with our possession, and not countless sideways passing. I won't ramble too much about Gasperini and his philosophy as I think the OP did a great job in analysing this for us. 

As others have previously mentioned, increasing out team mentality also has the knock on effect of increasing individual mentalities. I think @crusadertsar mentioned this recently in his brilliant Total Football thread - about the need to have your back 3 (or defenders in general) on a higher mentality to aid playing out from the back and not hoofing the ball upfield constantly. Therefore, Attacking is the best fit as it means our two WCBs are on a Positive mentality and the BPD is on Balanced (I did experiment with a Libero but more on that later). 

Team Instructions

I usually have a set template for Total Football inspired tactics, but this has required some tweaking to get the desired movements - particularly those wide diamonds and overloads used so frequently by Gasperini and Atalanta. The most important here is the use of Focus Play Down Left & Right. This means we are looking to encourage our players to use those wider areas, whether it be moving wide/into half spaces to create overloads, or focussing our passes into those areas. As a result of this, I felt no need to use Play Wider as a team instruction as we were already using those areas enough, and increasing width meant we exclusively attacked down the flanks and pretty much ignored the middle and we became much more threatening with width left on default. 

You can see this in action in the below image. The ball is with our RWB (Lazaro) and he has the RCB and DLF in close support, with the CAR and AP also on moving over towards that side. Meanwhile, we maintain our width on the left flank - an important part of Gasperini's game, so we can take advantage of a possible switch in play. There's also a sort of diamond/rhombus shape on that left side with the LCB, LWB, LCM and Poacher. 

I think Slightly Shorter Passing and Play Out of Defence are quite self explanatory and don't require much detail as this is key to Atalanta's build up and philosophy as previously covered by the OP. I did however add Work Ball Into Box as this reduced the amount of crosses and long shots, and has actually led to some great intricate play in and around the box, akin to some of Atalanta's goals in real life! 

In Transition, Roll it Out and Distribute to Centre Backs again aid our build up play - nothing fancy here, but essential in maintaining possession and creating numerical superiority in the first phase in conjunction with our In Possession instructions. Like a GpG side without the ball, we also instruct the team to Counter Press, with the aim of winning the ball back instantly. 

Lastly, Out of Possession, we perhaps surprisingly, look to Force Opposition Outside as opposed to leaving this on default or Inside. This is a bit of a personal preference, as I like to keep my team as compact as possible and make us difficult to play through. It can be a bit risky in this shape as we have Wingbacks pretty much on their own out wide, and only two CMs, but the AP tracks back and helps form a 3 man midfield. We essentially defend in a compact 5-3-2 shape, quite like Atalanta do. As always the key to any GpG recreation though is the use of Tighter Marking and More Urgent pressing - a must have for this style. 

Player Roles & Instructions

The goalkeeper being set to SK(S) is pretty standard stuff, nothing too risky nor too passive. 

Now the Back Three is where it gets funky - and a massive thanks to SI for the introduction to overlapping Centre Backs! We can now easily recreate those patterns of play which Atalanta use so often. For me, there is no need to use the Attack duty on these guys, just leaving them on Support means they get forward plenty enough and actually get the odd goal and assist! Using Focus Play as well as this role, means we often overwhelm the opposition in wide areas with as many as four or five players drifting across to support play out wide. 

For the middle centre back, I started out using a Libero on Support, but did not really notice any benefit in possession and for some reason (not sure if it is a bug) he would always have the lowest rating in the entire team, even when completing loads of passes and looking good in other stats. Since changing to a BPD, ratings improved slightly but this is still an issue which makes me think there is a bug? Either way, the BPD still brings the ball out from the back with the Dribble More instruction and the Stopper duty has actually improved us defensively - which wasn't really a massive issue to begin with. 

The next part is probably make or break to the whole system - the Wingbacks. Because they are the only wide role in the team, they need to be able to provide width, be an outball, have the ability to beat their man in 1v1 situations and have excellent stamina and work rates to go up and down for 90 minutes. For Atalanta, the wingbacks usually stay high and wide - therefore an Attack duty seems best for me. I don't like using Overlap/Underlap TI's, I prefer to keep it minimal and get those movements through roles and instructions. At the moment, these guys are vanilla. I was using Stay Wide but their ratings suffered. Since removing it they are both contributing with plenty goals and assists! 

As I said above, there are quite a few similarities between this and the OP's tactic. For example, the roles for the double pivot - Mezzala and Carrilero - are still the most accurate roles for this system as they are hard coded to stay wider and help create overloads. The only instruction they have is to Shoot Less to reduce the number of long shots and encourage some more interplay. You don't see De Roon or Freuler scoring many worldies either so I prefer to keep it simple here. 

The same can be said for the strikers. It's difficult to shoehorn Josip Ilicic into one role, he's a cross between an Inside Forward/DLF/False Nine/Treq. Basically he can do it all, and he spends a lot of time in the right half space. I've found a DLF(A) with instructions to Roam and Stay Wider helps replicate some of his movement, and Rafa at Benfica has been brilliant in this role.  As for the Zapata role, this is really dependent on the player you have. I see him as either a Target Man or Complete Forward, but I sold my only real Target Man in Seferovic, and the CF role hasn't really worked as well as a Poacher! The key instruction here though is to Roam and Stay Wider, to help him drift out wide and create overloads as well as attacking those channels between FB and CB. 

We can see below, the positioning of the DLF (R. Pinho), as he's staying slightly wider and again forming a sort of diamond with the RCB, RWB and RCM. What's also interesting is the diamond in the centre that's being formed by the LCB, LCM, AP and Poacher. Grimaldo our LWB is the free man on the side, keeping the width and in acres of space to put in a dangerous cross or through ball. 

Last but not least, the Papu Gomez role. Sadly Papu had a falling out with Gasperini and is no longer at the club, but Atalanta haven't really suffered too much since losing their star player. The role has been filled by numerous players however, most notably Ruslan Malinovskyi or Matteo Pessina. Neither have set the world alight, but still play a crucial role in the system - linking the midfield to the attack, roaming out wide to create overloads and dropping deep to instigate attacks. For me, the Advanced Playmaker role has worked really well so far and is scoring plenty. This is still a role that could change however, and I have experimented with a Treq and an AM, so this is my no means set in stone. Wonderkind Thiago Almada, despite not being a nailed on starter, has done well in this role though: 

Now it's all well and good creating something that looks like an Atalanta tactic (you probably could create a truer replication), but for me it's pointless if it doesn't also perform well. That's the tough part, trying to find the balance between a winning tactic whilst staying true to Gasperini's principles. In terms of results though, there can be no complaints. Here are some of our recent results when using this latest version: 

The eagle eyed amongst you may have spotted a few shock results here, such as a 4-1 win at the Nou Camp which was more a lesson in counter attacking at pace and precision if anything else. But the result I want to focus on is the 6-0 hammering of arch rivals FC Porto who were until then, running away with the league. 

You can see by these stats, just how much of a one sided contest it was. We were playing well before this game but this still came as a shock to me. Porto's 4-4-2 was no match for us. We dominated them and creating overloads everywhere. It felt like we had an extra player on the field! We ended the first half 5-0 up, with Porto not even registering an attempt on goal by that point.

This is by no means a plug and play tactic as I've only tested with Benfica, and as I said, some people may be able to get an even closer replication. 

I also have a 2nd tactic which has not been tested as much, and I actually switch to it late in a game when I want more of a solid shape. It's essentially a 3-4-3/3-4-2-1 which is also inspired by Gasperini, as its one of the two shapes he predominantly uses. The formation is a little more solid defensively as it morphs into a 5-4-1 when out of possession. 

I hope this was helpful for those interested in the highly rated Gian Piero Gasperini and his entertaining Atalanta side! 

And thanks again to @SixPointer for your detailed write up in the past as it's made it so much easier for me, and I imagine others too, to try and replicate Gasperini's system  

[Gian Piero Gasperini at Atalanta Case Study]

8 minutes ago, SixPointer said:

Thanks my man! The new WCB roles are the final piece in the Atalanta puzzle it’s the one thing that I could never get due to the limitations. 
 

advancing wide CBS and rotations within the half spaces. These are both now very achievable. I haven’t played much of the beta but what I have I’ve seen enough to be sure this would work.

personally I probably won’t cover Atalanta again even with the upgrades but hopefully people can draw on stuff from the post albeit from a older version off the game most things still stand. Although I would be wary about pressing very hard all the time as the pressing has been re worked since 

It is looking quite promising but I am reserving some judgement until the full release but so far it’s produced some exciting football! Just a matter of tinkering with the roles of the front 3 (specifically the Gomez role) to get the desired movements. 
 

And you’re right about pressing - it isn’t viable to press so high and intensely for the whole game.
 

I’d be happy to share the tactic and some results once I’ve done some more testing if anyone is interested. 

[Gian Piero Gasperini at Atalanta Case Study]

I really enjoyed this thread previously, and would love to know if anyone is having a crack at a Gasperini inspired tactic for FM22. 
 

With the new Wide Centreback role I think we can finally create those wide overloads/rotations that are so key to his system. 
 

I’m doing lots of tinkering at the moment but taking great inspiration from your good work here @SixPointer

[Inverted wingback and mezzala]

I actually play this kind of system, and find the exact same issues. I’ve played this way pretty much consistently throughout the last few iterations of FM, to varying degrees of success.

This year, with improvements to the ME, it’s been the most successful and enjoyable to watch when it clicks. However, I too am frustrated with the positioning (and intelligence maybe?) of the roles in question. 
 

I don’t often see the IWB and MEZ get into each other’s space, and if they do it’s momentarily and doesn’t disrupt the build up. This only tends to happen often when the IWB has the PPM ‘Gets Forward’. 

My biggest issue, is the MEZ and IW or W getting into each others way in the final third. Even when I instruct them to stay wider (Winger naturally stays wider) they tuck in very early, and nobody is holding width.
 

On the rare occasion the IWB is smart enough to realise there’s nobody in the wild channel, and they move to overlap, which is cool. 
 

I’ve seen people on various threads, particularly in reference to Guardiola’s style, attempting to fix this by dropping the wingers into the ML strata. I notice a slight improvement but feel it harms my pressing, so it’s not really a viable solution. 
 

One way I have tried to counteract it whilst keeping the high press is to instruct my team to player Wider. Although I feel it contradicts my shorter passing instructions and doesn’t play to the strengths of my False 9 and double Mezzala’s. 
 

I have tried to balance the system in the past by playing a traditional wingback behind an Inside Forward on one side, but I can never get the best out of overlapping fullbacks for some reason. Most of the time they just cross into the legs of the opposing defender for a corner…rinse and repeat. 

[Return of The Tactics Bible......Maybe.....]

Great to see the legendary Cleon is back! 
 

Personally, I tend to struggle occasionally when trying to translate my philosophy/style (based on real teams/managers) into FM. Particularly as you mentioned in your snippet above, which roles compliment each other and which ones can be contradictory.

[FM21 - Total Football, A club dna project with positional play]

I just wanted to show my appreciation for this thread once again. 
 

It’s been a while since I implemented any sort of JDP principles on FM as I’ve been doing a sort of ‘Road to Glory’ save with Dulwich Hamlet - taking them from the Vanarama South to (hopefully) the PL. 

A little background:

After overachieving with a counter attacking/transitional system which we mainly set up in a 4-4-2 (occasionally played a more conservative 4–3-3), we began to hit a wall in our debut season in League 1. Unable to really strengthen the squad that much, and losing some key players, I believe our style was becoming ineffective. We kept lumping the ball up field with no great success, and as a result just kept inviting pressure.

Suddenly, I did not recognise this team as one of ‘my teams’. We weren’t playing the kind of football I want to see, nor was it successful. 
 

So after an average start (sitting 10th in the table when predicted 23rd is good - but not in comparison to finishing top every season beforehand)  and dissatisfied with the play style, I reverted to a way of playing which was much more familiar to me, and much more enjoyable. 
 

Out of pure laziness and a bit of stupidity, I loaded up the exact same JDP tactic I had used on an old Benfica save. Let’s just say I was shocked! I didn’t expect my Dulwich side to be able to pull it off, but we did. So far it’s been amazing to watch - by far the best football we have played. Defensively it could improve, but I do have the 2nd worst squad in the league. 

Results/Performances:

So as it stands we are sitting 2nd in League 1 and things are looking promising: 

The results highlighted in orange are since the change to a JDP system. The Papa John’s game was with my reserve players who most definitely aren’t suited to this style but since it wasn’t an important game, I wanted to see how they did. We lost narrowly to Forest Green even though our xG was much better than theirs. 
 

You can see the improvement in form, and results in terms of goals scored, in comparison to our earlier results. The Stockport game was a freak game against the worst team in the league, and Millwall got FM’d by us. So even though we were winning some games, we got lucky and it didn’t seem sustainable (hence the 4 game loss streak). 

Over the last month of using the system, you can see how threatening we are going forward: 

I am slightly concerned by the xGA but there are some tweaks I’ve made to try and tighten the defence a little. However, considering my players abilities I am very pleased. It is producing some of the best football I’ve seen in this match engine! 
 

I hope this has shown that positional play can work at lower levels. I obviously need to test this over a season and see how we do, but for now it’s encouraging. I would say it takes a lot of in game management and tweaks to understand when and what to change as this is a risky approach if you haven’t got the right personnel. 

[A guide to defending like a real 442]

Wow, 107 goals scored! Outstanding work considering both strikers are played on Support duties 

I guess like you said, their PPMs are crucial for this.

If you were managing a lower league side, what role would you recommend instead of Complete Forward? This is a highly demanding role which is difficult to find suitable players for at low levels. I've only really used Advanced Forward or PFa for a more direct runner in behind, and I have struggled when changing this to any kind of support role. 

[A guide to defending like a real 442]

16 minutes ago, obasa_G said:

What about two strikers (One on attack and One on support) and the attack striker man marks the central midfielder?

Yeah this is more or less the same thing I did. Except I also told my Support striker to man mark, which I guess I didn’t need to do. 
 

But the same problem will arise, which is the Attack duty player potentially being drawn into positions where you don’t want him to be. I’d say this should be a situational instruction, not something that will work against every team. 

[A guide to defending like a real 442]

15 minutes ago, fraudiola said:

whats your mid setup like with DLF+AF?

It was better than the shadow strikers. However I would be mindful using it against better opponents or adventurous CMs. For example, I had my AF and DLF man marking Wimbledon’s CMs, and the DLF was fine but the AF was getting dragged all over the pitch by his marker who as it turns out was playing in a Mezzala role. 
 

We ended up losing 2-0 against a far superior opponent. I think in those games it’s best to leave your AF up the pitch for a chance to counter 

[A guide to defending like a real 442]

16 hours ago, fraudiola said:

nope, i might. switching to DLF+AF next probably

I tried the two shadow strikers for one game and it worked well in terms of counter attacking - scored two great goals on the break. However it was a bit too passive for my liking, not enough pressure on the opponent meant we were camped in our own half for most of the game. It would need further testing but I feel like you would be under sustained pressure for long periods 

[A guide to defending like a real 442]

1 hour ago, fraudiola said:

what about 2 shadow strikers?

I was thinking about doing something like this.
 

I actually had great success with a strikerless 4-4-2 in FM20 with Fiorentina but haven’t yet felt the need to play withdrawn strikers as my AF & DLF combo work well. But tempted to give this a go and see how it works. 
 

Have you tried this yet?

[A guide to defending like a real 442]

3 minutes ago, cocoadavid said:

Btw if anyone has struggles using two support duty strikers, a 4-4-1-1 defensive shape (for example one striker on attack duty and the other one on support/defend) is really great for counter attacking, especially if the opposition plays with a high DL or has slow defenders, I have used that approach before this compact 4-4-2 and it worked really well, too. Defensively it's not as compact as a 4-4-2, but offers the chance for a more direct approach.

Agreed, this is the approach I’ve used in virtually every game with my current side as it suited the players. But like you I prefer to see my two strikers actually drop back and create that 4-4-2 mid block and not a staggered/asymmetric 4-4-1-1. Definitely good to have two approaches that you can easily switch between! 

[A guide to defending like a real 442]

On 18/05/2021 at 09:26, Bot Makel said:

The problem with DLF-A is that on defense it doesn't do the job of a player in support duty

I think I’ve found a slight work around for this. I play a (fairly) direct 4-4-2 with Dulwich Hamlet and after back to back promotions we’re in League 2 and facing much better opposition. 
 

After some testing in the back end of last season (when we were running away with the title) I found two suppers duty strikers were not dangerous enough for me and the players at my disposal. 
 

I was off to an ok start in the league winning one and losing another with my usual 4-4-2. However it clicked for me after a Carabao Cup 2nd round tie at home to West Ham I rolled out a tweaked version of the OPs setup but only in the 2nd half and we limited them to very few chances (lost 3-0 still). So in the next league game at home to Crawley, who were relegated from League 1, I kept my original AF up top next to my DLF(S) but made two key changes: 

I told both strikers to Mark Tighter and specifically Man Mark the oppositions CMs so that they both dropped back into midfield. It worked a treat, we won 4-0 with all our goals coming on the break. The first goal was textbook - we let the CD bring the ball out from the back before my winger pounced on him and scored. 
 

The obvious benefit of this is that my AF is still on an attack duty and will make those crucial runs in behind a lot more than a support duty striker. I also don’t have good enough players to use the CF role or strong enough for the TM role, so I’m kind of stuck with AF/Poacher types with a DLF/False 9s. 
 

To summarise it may not be as good as having both on support in terms of defensive shape, but it’s close enough whilst still being threatening in behind. 

[A guide to defending like a real 442]

Great write up, really cool to see how you use OIs as this is something that I also try to do but I never thought of NOT closing down centre backs - interesting take! 
 

I have a question about the attacking side (I know this is mainly about the defensive shape). Do you have enough runners/threats in behind with two support duty strikers? I always prefer to have one striker on Attack but then I face the same problem you pointed out, there’s a big distance between him and his striker partner and the midfield. 

[Help required in 442 role set-up]

5 hours ago, nidhar.ram said:

Another question I have is how I can defend with this set-up? I don't think I can press high, would a middle block work here? If so, how do i set it up?

I think that's the beauty of the 4-4-2, you have so many options both with and without the ball. There is no reason why a high press would not work (although a 4-2-4 would be a better pressing shape) but ultimately your players need to be suited to the high press. Again, depending on your players, a mid block could be the best option. 

I'm currently playing a LLM save with Dulwich Hamlet and we easily won the Vanarama South and now sit top of the National League playing a mid block 4-4-2. I played almost exclusively on Positive mentality with Standard DL and Lowe LOE with Narrow Defensive Width, More Urgent Pressing and Get Stuck In to create an aggressive and compact mid-low block. I've now increased the mentality to Attacking for home games but the defensive block remains unchanged, just naturally slightly higher due to the mentality shift. So yes, a mid block can definitely work. 

I took some inspiration from @Rashidi's thread on Lower League Management, and the importance of having good Jumping Reach/Aerial presence to deal with crosses as we give up the flanks in order to be as compact as possible. 

Hope that helps. 

[Help in analysing a bad result I had?]

I’m not an expert but I would say your TIs are a little too aggressive (like the high line), especially going away to a strong side playing with effectively 3 up front. Also you said you play Pass Into Space to take advantage of an aggressive opponent but you also play Much Shorter Passing and Lower Tempo? To me that’s a bit contradictory. Along with Fairly Narrow it could be overkill and perhaps playing into their hands.
 

I think you’ve identified some of the issues yourself, like being outnumbered in midfield. I would be tempted to drop Busquets into the DM strata as a Half Back maybe, which can help you beat their high press (I’m assuming they pressed high). You could then put Coutinho alongside De Jong in a 4-3-3 to provide more balance. 
 

Another thing I’ve noticed in general, and only quite recently, is how much of an effect mentalities actually have to general risk taking. I always thought I had to play on Positive to play a patient possession game, but I actually think it’s the other way around. Sure it can be done, but I think you would have more control if you dropped your mentality to Balanced or even Cautious. Alternatively you could keep it on Positive but maybe put passing, tempo, width close to or on default for a more direct approach to really exploit space.
 

Like I said I’m no expert but these are a few things I’ve learned from my own experiences, I’m sure you will get some more helpful feedback. And don’t give up  

[Getting most out of Joao Felix - tactics problem]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

In a 4-2-3-1 like yours I would want to give a creative pivot like your Joao as much space as possible to operate in. So there are two things that interfere with that in your current tactic. 1) you have both wide players coming inside (unless you have stay wider PI on one of them that you didn't tell us about). This is further aggravated by your play wider team instruction

2) BBM making runs forward into AMC's space. That's another problem in my opinion actually. In this formation I recommend using a proper double pivot in central midfield. That means two roles with hold position instructions, like DLP(s) and CM(d) for example. Otherwise you will leave yourself wide open for counters.

 

Agree with these points - you're congesting the space that Felix plays in. In the past, a number 10 was mostly used in a system like a 4-3-1-2 behind two strikers where he had plenty space and was the focal point for the team. In most 4-2-3-1 setups, particularly with Inside Forwards or Inverted Wingers, there are too many players entering the '10 position' or Zone 14. That doesn't mean it can't work in this system but like the above, you need to find more space for him to operate.

Something else I noticed is the player attributes. Odegaard is much more of a playmaker, with his Teamwork of 17 meaning he will be more likely to look for his teammates than Felix, with 12 Teamwork. In my opinion I see Felix as more of a scorer/creator hybrid than a pure creator like Odegaard. 

[A Simple Build, Evolution Leading to Success, Back Three Special, treble winners (series complete)]

The second episode didn't disappoint! Great stuff 

I really like how you evolved your tactic (and playing squad) without forgetting your principles/original style. I must say I've never been brave enough to try a 3 striker system but seeing your success with it is inspiring. 

Thanks for sharing your set piece set ups too - I've have relative success with my own routines but could definitely do with a Plan B (or even Plan C) in those tightly contested games. 

Looking forward to part three 

[A Simple Build, Evolution Leading to Success, Back Three Special, treble winners (series complete)]

Brilliant write up.

I also really enjoyed your Atalanta recreation. They’re one of my favourite sides to watch in real life but it’s cool to see the journey you’ll be going on here too. Especially how your overload to isolate has been so effective with the amount of assists and goals coming from those areas. 
 

Do you think perhaps a modified version of this would work in the lower leagues? I’m currently implementing a counter attacking style in the 6th Tier in England mostly using a 4-4-2 or 5-3-2 but I’m often winning by just a goal and the games are very tight. Tempted to take some elements from here and see if it can be done! 
 

 

[Ironclad Concepts of Defensive Football]

23 hours ago, Christopher S said:

I can testament to this. I've definitely had games where I could visibly see my OIs making a difference, and I try to be more diligent with it than I've been before. Word of caution to everyone, though; OIs can and will be detrimental to your tactic as a whole if you don't apply them coherently. For example, if you specifically want to force opponents inside because you don't think you can defend your flanks, forcing a right footed LW onto his left foot might not actually be what you want - as that would both enable the oppositions wing play, and drag your player out of your narrow block. 

Also, I think OIs in FM21 are supposed to be sort of like the popular term 'pressing traps' - ie. instructions you can use to create specific triggers and traps for your opponents to fall into. For example, if the opposition has a player that is average in pace/acc/agility, with low bravery and concentration, you can use OIs to make your opponents pass to him more often and make it so he gets pressed ihard and tackled hard - in turn creating turnovers due to his lack of ability to withstand pressure and lack of willingness to get stuck in. 

I’ve found this thread really interesting. Recently I began a new save in the Vanarama South with Dulwich Hamlet. As a result I’ve moved away from my usual high press, possession based game to a medium-low block counter attacking system which puts defence first. 
 

In both styles I typically like to defend narrower and compress the space for the opposition to play in - this time it’s just closer to my goal. Obviously the easiest way to achieve that is by using the Force Opposition Outside TI.
 

I also use OIs in conjunction with this, however I’ve never been sure if I’m using them correctly. I ask my players to show full backs and wingers down the line (e.g. show a right back onto his right foot). Does this make sense or should I really be showing them inside where my players are ready to engage them? 
 

My defensive record is really strong so it’s not becoming an issue, it’s more a matter of understanding the use of OIs in conjunction with TIs in case things do go wrong. 

[Manchester City Pep Guardiola Analysis and Tactical Recreation]

This thread...Wow! 

I'm a huge fan of Pep Guardiola and the way his teams play so this has been an excellent read for me. Personally this is a style of football that has given me so much joy but at times equal amounts of frustration when trying to replicate it on FM.

I believe you said in one of your opening posts that there will be some trade offs, and I couldn't agree more. To try and replicate Positional Play, at least to the extent of how Pep utilises it, is almost impossible with the limitations of the tactics creator and ME. Not to say that there are issues with those, just that this is a game and it is unfair to expect it to play out exactly as it does in real life. 

One of the biggest trade offs for me, and this is just about in possession (out of possession like you said is a whole other thing), is being able to tell players to perform multiple roles at the same time. For example, at times we may see Cancelo, like he did vs Everton, tuck in as a pivot, or at times be even more adventurous at play almost as a No. 10! Conversely, we often see Walker, or recently Zinchenko on the left, form a back 3 in build up, but they have licence to occasionally overlap or tuck in to support the pivot in midfield. 

It's not currently possible to achieve those things in FM so we have to try and pick what are perhaps our favourite 'scenario' of Pep's Positional Play into one tactic. You could of course have the other tactical slots filled with alternate scenarios - but my point is, in one tactic it's really difficult to get this fluid approach to player roles. 

Apologies for rambling and I have no intention of hijacking this thread, but what I want to get at is the selection of roles and duties for the fullbacks, and CMs in particular, who I feel are crucial to the system. I am curious as to why you have chosen to give Cancelo an Attack duty, given that he does tend to play mostly as a pivot alongside Rodri, with license to roam of course, but I do not see him getting into the box on every occasion like an Attack duty may suggest. This links back to my ramblings about the different scenarios (he does more than one role!)

The problem this creates is the one that you faced with KDB being in the same space. I see you have tried to fix this by also giving him an Attack duty but personally I would reduce the mentality of Cancelo to Support, and perhaps give KDB a CM Support role with added PI's such as Gets Forward and Move Into Channels (leaving him on Attack could also work depending on defensive coverage). I'm not sure what Cancelo's PPMs or Traits are too, but if he as the Gets Forward Whenever Possible trait, then a Support duty is more than enough for me. 

I am only speaking from my own experiences using these such roles within the game, this is not me criticising your set up or knowledge of Pep's system - just something which worked for me  

[A player in every half-space? 2-3-5 in possession.]

20 minutes ago, Luizinho said:

Fantasista10 - great point on the use of a HB. Makes a lot of sense and could definitely help me in my save when face a high press away from him.

 

Sorry to hijack momentarily but it’s really interesting that both the recent posts talk about ineffectiveness of a F9. I’m finding Messi really poor for me in that role.

Is there any reason why the role appears to be struggling?

I was thinking using a Complete Forward or DLF (A) - but off out of the physical and aerial attributes needed for the CF role.

Yeah I’ve found that the F9 role is probably the least effective of all, and has been for many iterations of FM for me.
 

It could be something I’m doing wrong, but in the case of Munir, or Messi for yourself, they have the attributes to play that role, so I don’t understand how ratings can be so bad. 
 

Munir had a run of 5 games where his rating was either a 6.4 or 6.6 with 0 G/A. 
 

I understand it’s a demanding role but I’m not putting a donkey at F9, he’s a very technically gifted, capable forward. 

[A player in every half-space? 2-3-5 in possession.]

7 hours ago, markoconnell said:

I’m trying to execute the modern attacking movements from managers like Pep, Arteta. Mostly Arteta as I’ve been following his progress with the Arsenal. When in possession up in the opposition’s half, they try to have at least 5 up front, 2 in front of them to recycle possession and a 3 man weary of counter-attacks.

WB/IF/F9/Mez/IW would make sense in this case. WB and IW with width stretching the defense. IF, Mez in the half-spaces and the F9 up top.

In front of them, a DLP and the IWB with the two DC with HB in the middle splitting them.

Short passing would be the only Team Instruction on a Control Mentality.

Would this work? What other instructions or roles are needed to better enforce this style of play? 

I'm currently running something similar with my Sevilla side, with great results. I have a couple variations of the tactic, but this one with the HB is more along the lines of what you mentioned:

I tend to use this shape when facing a high press and/or top heavy system like a 4-2-3-1 or even a 4-4-2. This creates a 3 when playing out from the back as the HB drops in and CBs fan out (Salida Lavolpiana), and the left WB pushes on and stays wide (PI) whilst the width on the right is created by the IW (Stay Wide PI). 

The DLPs and IWBs create a double pivot in front of the back 3 whilst the WBs, IFa, DLFs, MEZa, IWs fill the five vertical lines of the field (Wing, Half Space, Centre, Half Space, Wing)

My second variation only has two changes, and I use this when I'm comfortable favourites or up against a similar shape like another 4-3-3. In this instance, I change the HB to a DLPd and the DLPs becomes a BBM which I instruct to Get Forward and Stay Wide as he helps overload that left half space and creates more of a 2-3-5/2-2-6 shape. 

The TIs used are the same in both systems - these are what I call the core Juego de Posicion instructions. The only changes I make in game here is to either Counter or Hold Shape, or change the Defensive Width (we started to concede a lot from crosses with Force Outside, and I found Force Inside really improved our press).

Lastly the striker role is absolutely crucial. The IFa will be the main scorer for sure (Ocampos has 22 goals 9 assists in February) but my striker also has to chip in on occasion. I tried using Munir as an F9 but didn't feel like he posed enough of a goalscoring or creative threat, but Vallejo has been superb as a DLFs. He drops really deep (without the PPM) and links up amazingly with the MEZ, IF, IW. He might not always get the goal or assist (or ratings) but his link up play is vital to the system functioning as I want. 

Hope this helps  

[Playing On The Edge: Dominating Possession with only one CB]

53 minutes ago, RenegadeMaster said:

It's funny you should mention City as the last few times I have watched them you can see their change to a back three when in possession, with Stones going over to the RB spot and Cancelo pushing into midfield and attacking areas. It really is interesting and great to see in action. 

With regards to the double CAR, I actually quite like and I think it is definitely more solid defensively than the MEZ / BBM combo, despite the negative results in my earlier post. I think these results are more due to the fact that my squad depth is seriously lacking and players are incredibly fatigued, meaning I had to play more ACM type players in the CAR role which after watching the games play out is far from ideal imo. 

For some reason whenever I think of the CAR role I think of Wijnaldum, someone that imo isn't really an ACM or a DM, just a good solid central midfielder who is very technically gifted. This is the type of players that I am going to try and bring in to fill these roles and hopefully begin to dominate teams again. 

I agree, City are incredibly interesting to watch at the moment, especially Cancelo’s role. I would love to be able to create a system that defends in a 4-3-3 (4-1-4-1) or 4-4-2 but morphs into the 3-4-3 Diamond in possession but I think that’s where the tactics creator is a little limited. 
 

Good point about the CAR role I think Wijnaldum is a perfect example.
 

I haven’t had much game time lately so not been able to try the new version, but out of curiosity has anyone tried the new roles but with the previous Balanced mentality? 
 

I understand the reasoning for the switch to Attacking, especially for its impact on individual mentalities. In my head staying on Balanced makes sense given the new roles augment the diamond as @crusadertsar mentioned, and the reduced mentality helps to control the game better than (what I would imagine) an Attacking mentality. Like I said, this is me speculating as I haven’t tried this yet so I could be totally wrong. I found the Balanced mentality was great at controlling games and creating plenty chances - the only issue was the occasional ball in behind the IWB or lone CB, but that is part of ‘playing on the edge’. 
 

Looking back to @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!and his great thread on the 3-4-3, I like the idea of leaving passing on Standard, especially with intelligent players, letting them pick the best option and not having possession for possession sake. So I aim to give this a try and hope for some positive results! 

[Playing On The Edge: Dominating Possession with only one CB]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

TACTICAL UPDATE AND ANALYSIS

So I have been doing some thinking... or more accurately tinkering. It was mostly a result of a stretch of bad form in October in my 2nd season with my beloved Real Sociedad. You know how it goes. Lose and/draw a few games, morale goes low and you start thinking that you will never climb out of it. You start thinking about deleting the save, or even worse uninstalling it . 

 

 

 

I came very close to doing just that. Well, maybe not uninstalling haha but abandoning my save.

And I just couldn't pin point what went wrong. Especially given our success (3rd place LaLiga finish) with the same tactic in 1st season. Also given the "Dream Team" that I assembled over the summer (more on that soon). How could we possibly play so badly? But then I realized that after all the planning there is still a lot of bad luck in football and in FM. And we did have a rough start to the season, dealing with injuries to some key players as well as having a really tough Champions League group draw. Drawing Juventus alone might have made things interesting but getting Manchester City also just put a serious dent to any hopes we had of progressing. Not that Real Sociedad is a bad team. But it is still a young team that has not reached its full potential with the Total Football system. Although I think we are well on our way there, especially given the quality of some of our young players. 

So in the end, the humbling experience of losing in Champions League made me realize that not everything is controlled at the tactical drawing board. There are no perfect tactics. Things can still go wrong, and definitely will. It is the job of the manager to pick up the pieces and use failure as a learning opportunity to make their tactics even better. And most importantly that tactic creation in FM21 is a constantly evolving process of tweaking and improvising. So hopefully this is what the next couple of updates will show. But first lets take a look at the changes.

 

I was able to cut down on some of the team instructions from my original tactic. It was all in attempt to really refine only the absolutely necessary instructions to recreate the sort of shape and movement that I was looking for. Hence the change to Attacking mentality.

Switching to Attacking allowed me to cut down on some of the instructions because there is already certain level of pressing and tempo hardcoded into the mentality. The only thing you need to modify is the passing length, to cut out the directness. Overall I chose it because of its effect on the individual player mentalities. The switch split my team into two mentalities, the top 6 players (with exception of CF) now operate with Positive individual mentalities. While the bottom 4 outfield players are Balanced in their approach. The two similar mentalities help my players to operate closer together to suit the Total Football approach. Also the vertical shift from Balanced to Positive allows for more gradual build up while keeping intent in our possession especially once the ball makes it to our attackers. There are some important PI for the two IWs (to make the two play differently) but I will discuss those in a separate post about my attackers. The focus of this with be the midfielders and its Diamond.

The primary concern of my tactical rework was augmenting the Diamond in the midfield. I think it is absolutely essential to preserve the shape of the diamond. It is what helps the team keep control of the ball, especially when pressing high in the opposition zone. I found that with the two roaming roles (two Mezzalas or Mezzala and BBM combo) there was too much movement which sometimes broke the diamond and made players play too close to each other. Secondly, the Shadow Striker was not working as planned. I found that despite having a hard-working player there, he was not dropping deep enough to help the other 3 midfielders. And his offensive output was not significant enough to justify keeping the role.

Now, above you can see the average positioning from one of the most recent games with the updated tactic. It is exactly what I am looking for! The combination of our high defensive line, standard line of engagement and counter-press is allowing the players to mostly maintain pressure inside the opponent's half. True to Cruyff's philosophy this is also how we are defending, proactively. Just don't let them get the ball into our half. And to do this optimally you need to maintain equal distances between the four players of the diamond. Since to control the space, your midfielders cannot be too bunched up leaving big gaps for opponent to exploit elsewhere.

Our latest result against Leganes for example. We ended up winning the match rather decisively while keeping 70% possession. Their sole consolation goal came late in the game. I think that is one of the weaknesses of my system, it really tires the players out (especially the two carrileros) so you need to make sure you have real work-horses for those roles with high Stamina, Workrate and Natural Fitness (to allow them to recover quicker from games, play more matches back to back and ward off "jadedness"). Not to mention the usual mental attributes of Anticipation, Concentration, Composure, Positioning, Off The Ball, Teamwork, and Vision. Essentially if you are looking for Well-Rounded Total Footballers to recreate my system then the midfield roles is where you should scout first. The Diamond Heart of the system requires the best players. 

Just to show you how much of an effect the change in tactics I will post some of our recent results. You can see the kind of possession and goal number that the tactic is capable off, once you have the right players and they are familiar with it.

 

                 

       

 

Hopefully its a sign of better things to come.

 

I really like the look of this tweaked setup, nice work 

How are you finding it defensively? It doesn't seem like it's lost its control of the game and potency in the final third which is excellent. I plan to give the Attacking mentality a whirl in Pre Season. 

47 minutes ago, RenegadeMaster said:

Hi mate, 

Funnily enough since I posted that I have started to become quite leaky again - but that seems to have coincided with players become quite fatigued and in need of a rest, which I'm sure @crusadertsarsaid in either this thread or the Total Football one strength in depth is needed. 

In regards to PPM's although none of my back three have the stay back at all times but I think that is something I will definitely look to train into them and also play out from the back, which would also benefit the IWB's too in my opinion. I'm not too sure about the dives into tackles as maybe that would concede freekicks and penalties, but one I would definitely avoid from experiencing Pique playing the lone CB role is 'DO NOT dive into tackles'. 

Thanks for advice mate, I plan to train Stay Back on my younger full backs. Unfortunately my star left back Alex Grimaldo has Gets Further Forward so he really isn't suitable for the role but his attacking threat means I can't not play him. So I'm using a 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 variant mostly until my squad is capable of playing this way. But the 3-4-3 is certainly the long term aim!