Tactic Tweaking – The what, where, when and how!!!!

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Kevaldo:

Closing down (as I understand) relates to how high up the pitch the opposition will press. Therefore a high closing down will mean the opposition presses you in your own half when you have the ball. Cleon's solution of direct passing would therefore make sense ... if the opposition are pressing your back four you don't want them passing short and risking a loss of possession in a dangerous area. In addition because the opposition are pressing high up the pitch it should mean there is space in behind their defence for your strikers to exploit so it would make sense to get the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible.

I see your point crazy gra over how a fast tempo could theoretically work however if you think of closing down as a positional thing a team on 'rarely' closing down would press just as hard as a team on 'often' closing down ... the difference being they would wait for you to get well into their half before they start the press.

Spot on, I wouldn't personally use tempo to solve this problem, but each to their own.

[bean feast]

It's nonsense to implement your style of play from your scout report. As always, scouting the next opposition is a mere gimmick and it's a waste of a scouting allocation if you ask me. I don't bother with it anymore. You only have to play against another human to realise how inaccurate the scouting actually is. "You should play an anchor man because of Damien Duff"? Where's the logic in that? The BEST way to select tactics for a game is to tweak the sliders once you have hit 'Go to match'. Check the formation, see who's playing (you never know until kick-off), and then go from there. It's a tried and tested method that I've used for years. Scouting the opposition is only useful for finding threats (players) in teams you have never heard of. As most probably play in England anyway, it should be common knowledge who is a threat, and since the information is not accurate anyway, it's a complete waste of time; particularly if you are a smaller club. One of your scouts is wasted on scouting the opposition when he could be keeping his eye on some real talent.

[josefk]

Spotted the same thing in CM 03/04 with multiple users and "scout next opposition" turned on. Most of the time the preferred formation was completely wrong etc.

Haven't done a multiple user game on 07, but the game certainly does figure out what formation the user deploys now. Only have to take a look at a human profile screen. It's been spot on for me.

Then again it said I'm very cautious in my management. Don't know where that came from

[crazy gra]

Originally posted by Benoit2:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by josefk:

I'm curios about the "tempo".

Does that mean how fast the players move the ball around, or does that mean how fast they get the ball up the field to try and finish the attack?

According to the manual, its the second. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'd have said it was a bit of both, because getting the ball quickly to the forwards would mean moving it quickly anyway.

Ok. But how can you make them pass it around then without getting it up there too fast?

slow tempo, short passing. the team will still pass it around a bit even if the tempo is high.

[crazy gra]

Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kevaldo:

Closing down (as I understand) relates to how high up the pitch the opposition will press. Therefore a high closing down will mean the opposition presses you in your own half when you have the ball. Cleon's solution of direct passing would therefore make sense ... if the opposition are pressing your back four you don't want them passing short and risking a loss of possession in a dangerous area. In addition because the opposition are pressing high up the pitch it should mean there is space in behind their defence for your strikers to exploit so it would make sense to get the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible.

I see your point crazy gra over how a fast tempo could theoretically work however if you think of closing down as a positional thing a team on 'rarely' closing down would press just as hard as a team on 'often' closing down ... the difference being they would wait for you to get well into their half before they start the press.

Spot on, I wouldn't personally use tempo to solve this problem, but each to their own. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's a good point. i always have direct passing for my defenders as relying on them to make short passes is suicide IMO so i just want them to find the wingers down the flanks or loft it up to my target man.

as i said earlier though, if i increased the passing to make it more direct, then i'd increase the tempo by the same amount to keep to my passing-tempo rule.

but do you think that if a team had 'mixed' pressing down then they'd press you less or just as much in their half as a team who have a 'closing down' pressing? (the same can be asked of if a 'rarely' pressing would press just as much in their area or less than if they had 'mixed' or 'closing down' pressing)

[bean feast]

Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kevaldo:

Closing down (as I understand) relates to how high up the pitch the opposition will press. Therefore a high closing down will mean the opposition presses you in your own half when you have the ball. Cleon's solution of direct passing would therefore make sense ... if the opposition are pressing your back four you don't want them passing short and risking a loss of possession in a dangerous area. In addition because the opposition are pressing high up the pitch it should mean there is space in behind their defence for your strikers to exploit so it would make sense to get the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible.

I see your point crazy gra over how a fast tempo could theoretically work however if you think of closing down as a positional thing a team on 'rarely' closing down would press just as hard as a team on 'often' closing down ... the difference being they would wait for you to get well into their half before they start the press.

Spot on, I wouldn't personally use tempo to solve this problem, but each to their own. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's a good point. i always have direct passing for my defenders as relying on them to make short passes is suicide IMO so i just want them to find the wingers down the flanks or loft it up to my target man.

as i said earlier though, if i increased the passing to make it more direct, then i'd increase the tempo by the same amount to keep to my passing-tempo rule.

but do you think that if a team had 'mixed' pressing down then they'd press you less or just as much in their half as a team who have a 'closing down' pressing? (the same can be asked of if a 'rarely' pressing would press just as much in their area or less than if they had 'mixed' or 'closing down' pressing) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I NEVER have my back 4 on short passing if I play flat in midfield. On the other hand, when I play a DM anchor playmker as I usually do, my defenders are set to super short (all the way to the left) to ensure that the maestro recieves it. Works a treat I've found.

[josefk]

Originally posted by crazy gra:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Benoit2:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by josefk:

I'm curios about the "tempo".

Does that mean how fast the players move the ball around, or does that mean how fast they get the ball up the field to try and finish the attack?

According to the manual, its the second. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'd have said it was a bit of both, because getting the ball quickly to the forwards would mean moving it quickly anyway.

Ok. But how can you make them pass it around then without getting it up there too fast?

slow tempo, short passing. the team will still pass it around a bit even if the tempo is high. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does that work with the "width" bar? If they play slow tempo, does playing it wide ruin it all? I've always tried to keep tempo and width close together, but aren't really convinced wheather that's needed or not. Is it?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by bean feast:

It's nonsense to implement your style of play from your scout report. As always, scouting the next opposition is a mere gimmick and it's a waste of a scouting allocation if you ask me. I don't bother with it anymore. You only have to play against another human to realise how inaccurate the scouting actually is. "You should play an anchor man because of Damien Duff"? Where's the logic in that? The BEST way to select tactics for a game is to tweak the sliders once you have hit 'Go to match'. Check the formation, see who's playing (you never know until kick-off), and then go from there. It's a tried and tested method that I've used for years. Scouting the opposition is only useful for finding threats (players) in teams you have never heard of. As most probably play in England anyway, it should be common knowledge who is a threat, and since the information is not accurate anyway, it's a complete waste of time; particularly if you are a smaller club. One of your scouts is wasted on scouting the opposition when he could be keeping his eye on some real talent.

Funny that, it works perfectly fine for me. Aren't you one of the people who struggle on FM?

Scout reports are useful to find out tempo, danger players, how deep to play, how attacking you can play etc.

[Hello From Hell]

The problem I have with following the Scout Report is that if I make the suggested changes, it affects my current tactic and I don't know what else to change to make it work with the suggested alterations.

[crazy gra]

Originally posted by josefk:

How does that work with the "width" bar? If they play slow tempo, does playing it wide ruin it all? I've always tried to keep tempo and width close together, but aren't really convinced wheather that's needed or not. Is it?

i had a small theory that width should be the same as passing so that your players are either closer together for narrower systems or further away for more direct approches.

an in game hint says passing and tempo should be the same, so i always follow that too. therefore, width is the same as tempo in my tactic, which is 6.

i did create a counter attacking system that pushed tempo and passing up to 9. because of the counter attack, i put width up to 15. had 3 very good results wit hit so far, although i haven't tried it with width 9.

[bean feast]

Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bean feast:

It's nonsense to implement your style of play from your scout report. As always, scouting the next opposition is a mere gimmick and it's a waste of a scouting allocation if you ask me. I don't bother with it anymore. You only have to play against another human to realise how inaccurate the scouting actually is. "You should play an anchor man because of Damien Duff"? Where's the logic in that? The BEST way to select tactics for a game is to tweak the sliders once you have hit 'Go to match'. Check the formation, see who's playing (you never know until kick-off), and then go from there. It's a tried and tested method that I've used for years. Scouting the opposition is only useful for finding threats (players) in teams you have never heard of. As most probably play in England anyway, it should be common knowledge who is a threat, and since the information is not accurate anyway, it's a complete waste of time; particularly if you are a smaller club. One of your scouts is wasted on scouting the opposition when he could be keeping his eye on some real talent.

Funny that, it works perfectly fine for me. Aren't you one of the people who struggle on FM?

Scout reports are useful to find out tempo, danger players, how deep to play, how attacking you can play etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't say I struggle after winning the Champions League with Swansea, but I would say still that the scout report is next to useless. You say it works for you, but that's just because you have a good tactic that works, not because of what the innacurate scout report states. Like I said already, it's one of those superficial gimmicks in FM that lacks practicality of purpose; it just feels good that it's there, but it soon gets old when you are told that you should play an anchor man because of a winger every week. If it allows you to enjoy the game better, then fair enough, but it's definitely one of those placebo concepts that are pretty frequent throughout FM.

[Cleon]

I wouldn't say I struggle after winning the Champions League with Swansea, but I would say still that the scout report is next to useless. You say it works for you, but that's just because you have a good tactic that works, not because of what the innacurate scout report states.

No chance is it my tactic im in a LLM game and creting a new tactic, its because they give you valuable info of what to change.

Like I said already, it's one of those superficial gimmicks in FM that lacks practicality of purpose; it just feels good that it's there, but it soon gets old when you are told that you should play an anchor man because of a winger every week

I don't get the same scout reports, dunno why but I don't.

If it allows you to enjoy the game better, then fair enough, but it's definitely one of those placebo concepts that are pretty frequent throughout FM.

I disagree, but illll not go on about it. They are very usful imo and people shouldn't disregard them as a useless feature, a lot can be changed based on this report alone.

[josefk]

Originally posted by crazy gra:

i had a small theory that width should be the same as passing so that your players are either closer together for narrower systems or further away for more direct approches.

an in game hint says passing and tempo should be the same, so i always follow that too. therefore, width is the same as tempo in my tactic, which is 6.

i did create a counter attacking system that pushed tempo and passing up to 9. because of the counter attack, i put width up to 15. had 3 very good results wit hit so far, although i haven't tried it with width 9.

If the 'width, tempo and passing' are all close together, it almost makes no sense in terms of player passing ability. If several players in your team are capable of making good passes then the 'tempo' can surely be upped to play a short passing game without upping the 'width' and 'passing'. But if the players are louzy at passing (eg in LLM) then they should need more room ('width') to play the ball around, shouldn't they? Look like there's no end truth out there.

But an interesting idea to bear in mind. The hints switch so bloody fast I can't bloody read them. Of course, the ones that I want to read, switch when I'm in the middle of the sentence

[obad85]

For who asks about the in-game hints and tips go to this thread:

In-game Hints and Tips-the full guide

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/521102691/m/7822009952

[Benoit2]

About a season into the game, every manager in the EPL seems to have a very cautious mentality and every team seems to play 4-4-2 defensive, looking to draw the opposition onto them before attempting a counter-attack. Is this a bug or what?

Sure enough Im Chelsea, but my scout bases his report on the oppositions last match, which wasnt against me, obviously.

Anyway, what should/can I do with the following report?

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3728/12292006150921ma9.jpg

First paragraph I mentioned above. Should I pay attention to this then?

Then: "Wenger likes his team to play possesion football" Isnt this contradictory with the defensive setup, drawing the opposition onto you and then counterattacking? The one suggest deep defensive line, quick tempo, direct passing and low closing down, the other suggest a non-deep defensive line, non-quick tempo, non-direct passing and no low closing down.

See the confusion, Cleon?

"And Arsenal will look to get the ball down and play it". Maybe its an English saying, but I understand feck all about this sentence. They are looking to play football or something? Well good, I guess

"They benefit from a strong and organised defence and this could prove difficult to break down". I find this useless. Almost every team in the EPL seems to have such a defense. It doesnt actually tell me what to do.

"Their midfield are good on the ball and can create chances" So I should have high closing down across the board?

"Lastly, we will need to make plans for their forwards as they are strong and quick". What kind of plans? Would be nice if my scout would actually tell me something usefull..

What purpose would an anchorman server to stop Henry? Henry is a striker, not an attacking midfielder. If my scout is telling me to manmark Henry, I'd be better of using a defender for that.

Hope you can help Cleon.

[Cleon]

About a season into the game, every manager in the EPL seems to have a very cautious mentality and every team seems to play 4-4-2 defensive, looking to draw the opposition onto them before attempting a counter-attack. Is this a bug or what?

The cautious metality is more linked to passing that anything else, so a manager who has cautious in his profile likes to pass the ball around, it doesn't mean he like to play defensive like people assume.

As for everyone using a 442 defensive formation, this is probbly the case of you being a big club and probably the best in the league. This is the only time I come across everyone using defensive against me. And it makes perfect sense, its how it happens IRL. If the scout is saying same thing time and time again, then change him as hes probably crap at judging. Look at Chelsea vs Aresnal this year IRL, Arsenal played defensive.

That report you linked was a Euro game, most English teams play defensive in Euro comps, however if it was an Arsenal league game he watched, im pretty sure it would be a bog standard 442 hes using.

Then: "Wenger likes his team to play possesion football" Isnt this contradictory with the defensive setup, drawing the opposition onto you and then counterattacking?

Why is it a contradiction? When they get the ball from a goal kick, throw in etc they will keep possession. However if you are in their half, and they disposses you then they will counter attack you, a bit like how Arsenal play IRL. All they are doing is playing slow tempo game, short passing and have counter attack ticked. If they played direct, the report would state they play direct, same with a high tempo.

See the confusion, Cleon?

I can see why people do get confused, its just how people interpret things thats wrong.

"And Arsenal will look to get the ball down and play it". Maybe its an English saying, but I understand feck all about this sentence. They are looking to play football or something? Well good, I guess

Means a patient style, they make the ball work.

"They benefit from a strong and organised defence and this could prove difficult to break down". I find this useless. Almost every team in the EPL seems to have such a defense. It doesnt actually tell me what to do.

This is because there defensive, it just means you might have to be patient in trying to get good opportunites. The bit I quoted, is a good indication of the other team having bodies back in numbers.

"Their midfield are good on the ball and can create chances" So I should have high closing down across the board?

It means you wanan try and limit the midfielders who are creative, namely Fabergas id imagine. You might wanna use the oppositio instructions for this bit. Its what I do.

"Lastly, we will need to make plans for their forwards as they are strong and quick". What kind of plans? Would be nice if my scout would actually tell me something usefull..

Well he has, hes not gonna give you all the answers, all a scout does it tell you who's or what positions are a threat, then its down to you as the manager to work out how to combat it not the scout. That just doesn't happen IRL either.

Man mark, tight marking, play deeper are all options to use, as well as the opposition instructions.

What purpose would an anchorman server to stop Henry? Henry is a striker, not an attacking midfielder. If my scout is telling me to manmark Henry, I'd be better of using a defender for that.

Not always a defender no, I use my DMC to close Henry down too. It gives me more time if a mistakes happens then as I a not a defender short at the back.

You have to remember strikers do not play inline with your back 4 at all times, in most cases they play more where the DMC is depending on th d-line. So a DMC is a more viable option at times.

Hope it all makes sense

[Benoit2]

Originally posted by Cleon:

As for everyone using a 442 defensive formation, this is probbly the case of you being a big club and probably the best in the league.

But the scout clearly says he watched their last match and noted they played defensively. He didnt say he thinks they will play defensive against me.

If the scout is saying same thing time and time again, then change him as hes probably crap at judging.

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1545/12292006164753wh3.jpg

Somehow, I doubt this fella is crap

Why is it a contradiction? When they get the ball from a goal kick, throw in etc they will keep possession. However if you are in their half, and they disposses you then they will counter attack you, a bit like how Arsenal play IRL. All they are doing is playing slow tempo game, short passing and have counter attack ticked. If they played direct, the report would state they play direct, same with a high tempo.

I guess the counter-attack option still isnt totally clear to me.

When thinking of it in real life, there are basically two things I can think of.

One is playing a counter-attacking style. (making the counter attack your primary form of attack etc, play is evolved around that). The other is trying to exploit the opposition coming on to you by trying to setup a quick counter attack. You're not aiming in luring the opposition onto you, but if you find yourself in such a position, you might as well exploit it.

Which of these two would the counter-attack option in the game be? Im very much interested in using the second option, not the first

I can see why people do get confused, its just how people interpret things thats wrong.

Whether it be the game that is unclear, or us interpreting things wrong, we still dont get it either way and need help

"Lastly, we will need to make plans for their forwards as they are strong and quick". What kind of plans? Would be nice if my scout would actually tell me something usefull..

Man mark, tight marking, play deeper are all options to use, as well as the opposition instructions.

Two things about this:

1) Setting opposition instructions for many players (strikers and creative midfielders, as my scout indicated), doesnt this mess up the overall tactic maybe? If so, how would you then handle the scout singling out those two threats?

2) Do you change your defensive line regularly then? I'd figure the def. line influences how you play. If you play a short passing game with a pushed up line, wouldnt this fall apart a bit when dropping your defenders back, for instance?

Thanks

[Cleon]

But the scout clearly says he watched their last match and noted they played defensively. He didnt say he thinks they will play defensive against me.

It was a European game, they probably did play defensive. For some reason Arsenal play defensive on my games too mainly, even if im a weaker side. Quite bizzare as they are the only top club to do that to me.

I guess the counter-attack option still isnt totally clear to me.

When thinking of it in real life, there are basically two things I can think of.

One is playing a counter-attacking style. (making the counter attack your primary form of attack etc, play is evolved around that). The other is trying to exploit the opposition coming on to you by trying to setup a quick counter attack. You're not aiming in luring the opposition onto you, but if you find yourself in such a position, you might as well exploit it.

Which of these two would the counter-attack option in the game be? Im very much interested in using the second option, not the first

The 2nd works better than the first, but thats not the one Arsenal use, you can tell because they play short and slow and not fast and direct.

Whether it be the game that is unclear, or us interpreting things wrong, we still dont get it either way and need help

Indeed, good job you got access to internet

1) Setting opposition instructions for many players (strikers and creative midfielders, as my scout indicated), doesnt this mess up the overall tactic maybe? If so, how would you then handle the scout singling out those two threats?

It can do yeah, but sometimes I use it to stop the threat of 1-3 players never more.

2) Do you change your defensive line regularly then? I'd figure the def. line influences how you play. If you play a short passing game with a pushed up line, wouldnt this fall apart a bit when dropping your defenders back, for instance?

I change mine game to game, an because it only comes into effect when you don't have possession I can't see how it stops you playing your norma passing game when in possession.

[bean feast]

CLEON: Why do you constantly back the game up and never EVER admit to its faults. I am sure you have made a wonderful contribution to this forum and the worrying thing is how highly you are held in regard. People listen to you, yet there are so many holes in your theories, and they continually lack evidence. A prime mistake you made was to mention that IRL scouts don't comment on opposition strikers, that it's up to the manager to work it out. What a load of nonsense. When my brother played for the Tranmere youth team, the scouts would have masses of information on the opposition, and this is at Tranmere Rovers; the youth team indeed. They would tell the manager that this fella only uses this foot, or this fella constantly hits the wing, or this fella drops deep.

As Benoit pointed out with his screenshot, the scout report was ABSOLUTELY contradictary, yet you somehow tried to convince us that it all made sense. I'm not having a go at you mate, but come on. As a respected member of this forum you have a responsibility more than most to come up with the right facts, but it seems to me that you theorise based on your opinion and then when someone begs to differ, you can never see it from their perspective. It's as clear as rain that that scout report is contradictary. To play a patient counter attacking game is nonsense. And can you really tell me that when Sir Alex Ferguson gets a scout report from Brondby that the scout says "They have a good striker, but you have to work it out." The lad would be sacked in a heartbeat. All I ask is that you open your mind a little. Like I said, I am not here to give you a hard time, but if I see something that I disagree with I'm going to let you know.

[Cleon]

CLEON: Why do you constantly back the game up and never EVER admit to its faults.

I've never stated it doesn't have faults, it has plenty just not what the ordinary person picks up on here.. But because I get to beta tester and hav nearly been playng FM07 for 6months, I understand it a lot better than most. SO I can answer questions etc.

I am sure you have made a wonderful contribution to this forum and the worrying thing is how highly you are held in regard. People listen to you, yet there are so many holes in your theories, and they continually lack evidence.

Like what? Most of the stuff I get from SI themselves, and if I get a theory I approach them and ask if its correct etc. If its not correct, I then say so in the thread like I did recently.

A prime mistake you made was to mention that IRL scouts don't comment on opposition strikers, that it's up to the manager to work it out. What a load of nonsense.

No you read wrong, I didn't say that. I said its the scouts job toidentfy the threat, its then down to the manager to sort it out tacticaly. I can't name 1 team IRL who have scouts to tell the manager what to do tactcialy, thats down to manager and assistant. So please read carefully next time.

What a load of nonsense. When my brother played for the Tranmere youth team, the scouts would have masses of information on the opposition, and this is at Tranmere Rovers; the youth team indeed. They would tell the manager that this fella only uses this foot, or this fella constantly hits the wing, or this fella drops deep.

You proved my ppoint above, they don't tell a manager how to stop the threat as the manager should know what to do. If not then he doesn't deserve to be a manager.

As Benoit pointed out with his screenshot, the scout report was ABSOLUTELY contradictary, yet you somehow tried to convince us that it all made sense. I'm not having a go at you mate, but come on.

It doesn't contradict though like I pointed out. Its people who don't understand what they actually mean. As ive pointed out to Benoit.

I'm not having a go at you mate, but come on. As a respected member of this forum you have a responsibility more than most to come up with the right facts, but it seems to me that you theorise based on your opinion and then when someone begs to differ, you can never see it from their perspective.

Okay so me and SI are wrong in most cases then... I do pretty well and have more success than most considering what I talk about is a lot of nonesense then?

Look at what I written about the scout reports above, it all makes sense and once people understand them they will see they are not contradicting at all.

To play a patient counter attacking game is nonsense.

Tell Arsene Wenger that IRL then.

If Arsenal was using direct and a fast tempo counter attacking game then it would have stated in the report. I will post you screenshots later of different teams playing a different type of counter attacking game.

And can you really tell me that when Sir Alex Ferguson gets a scout report from Brondby that the scout says "They have a good striker, but you have to work it out." The lad would be sacked in a heartbeat. All I ask is that you open your mind a little. Like I said, I am not here to give you a hard time, but if I see something that I disagree with I'm going to let you know.

Why not hire the scout as manager then seeing as hes telling Alex how to play tactically? Its bull, Alex makes the decisions on how to deal with the player not the scout.

Btw I could turn this around and say you don't see my point of view and you never admit you was wrong about the game too.

Anyways don't turn this into a slanging match im fed up with it. If people don't like what I wrote or agree with then, then fine but don't come into my topic looking for an arguemnt go elsewhere, maybe email or something.

[Benoit2]

Originally posted by Cleon:

It was a European game, they probably did play defensive.

My scout tells me with pretty much every team they played defensively in their last match. Like I said, is that some kind of bug, or did attacking football cease to exist?

The 2nd works better than the first, but thats not the one Arsenal use, you can tell because they play short and slow and not fast and direct.

Now you're just confusing me. The first one is making counter attack your main play, meaning you'll probably play deep, play direct etc. Since Arsenal dont play this way, it would have to be the second option they use, right?

Also, which of the two is the counter-attack option? My guess would be the second then (trying to exploit a counter-attack, but other wise just playing your normal game). The manual however says that this option makes you draw the opposition onto you, which would be exactly what my scout said then. However, once you have lured the opposition onto you to create space for yourself to counter-attack, how does this tie in with the playing short and slow and buildup play etc?

2) Do you change your defensive line regularly then? I'd figure the def. line influences how you play. If you play a short passing game with a pushed up line, wouldnt this fall apart a bit when dropping your defenders back, for instance?

I change mine game to game, an because it only comes into effect when you don't have possession I can't see how it stops you playing your norma passing game when in possession.

I'll quote the manual on this one:

"If you wish your team to play a progressive passing game, you'll want the defensive line to move up and ultimately take position quite high up the pitch."

Ergo, playing deep isnt good when you want to play a progressive passing game? (though I dont even know what progressive means..)

[bean feast]

Alright mate, lets talk about the patient counter attacking game:

SI have told us that passing and tempo are explicitly linked. I don't agree with this but we have to take their word for it. With this in mind:

1. To play a short passing game, you must implement slow passing and a slow tempo.

2. To play a direct passing game, you must implement direct passing and a quick tempo.

3. Counter attacking requires a direct passing approach, thus a quick tempo.

4. To play a quick and short passing game is contradictary to SI's rule that tempo and passing are explicitly linked.

5. A short passing game is patient in nature and would thus make the counter attack obsolete.

6. One can conclude that the scout report is contradictary thus innacurate. Additionally then, one should not rely on the scout report for tactical implementation.

Any thoughts?

[Cleon]

My scout tells me with pretty much every team they played defensively in their last match. Like I said, is that some kind of bug, or did attacking football cease to exist?

Defensive is effective in England and one of main plays on FM. However manage on the continet like Brazil etc and you notice a huge difference. Btw what season are you in? as it also depends on who the managers are, im in 2014 atm and th EPL is full of Spanish and Italian managers, so the styles I come up against are really diverse at times.

Now you're just confusing me. The first one is making counter attack your main play, meaning you'll probably play deep, play direct etc. Since Arsenal dont play this way, it would have to be the second option they use, right?

Sorry yeah, I lost myself for a sec, and laballed them wrong. Your correct yeah.

Also, which of the two is the counter-attack option? My guess would be the second then (trying to exploit a counter-attack, but other wise just playing your normal game).

Yes

The manual however says that this option makes you draw the opposition onto you, which would be exactly what my scout said then. However, once you have lured the opposition onto you to create space for yourself to counter-attack, how does this tie in with the playing short and slow and buildup play etc?

In theory this type of CA will only work if you have players of inferior quality, and I presume Arsenal do. They must feel really confident of picking you apart this way. Do you play wide by any chance?

Ergo, playing deep isnt good when you want to play a progressive passing game? (though I dont even know what progressive means..)

My bad I mis read what you meant.

Well to play a passing game you want to win the ball high up the pitch as possible, so a higher dline is better yea.

However, I still play a good passing game when my line is deep as well, I don't really notice a difference, but thats pobably due to my players mentalties being really simliar.

Progressive is like build up play and you build upon it.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by bean feast:

Alright mate, lets talk about the patient counter attacking game:

SI have told us that passing and tempo are explicitly linked. I don't agree with this but we have to take their word for it. With this in mind:

1. To play a short passing game, you must implement slow passing and a slow tempo.

2. To play a direct passing game, you must implement direct passing and a quick tempo.

3. Counter attacking requires a direct passing approach, thus a quick tempo.

4. To play a quick and short passing game is contradictary to SI's rule that tempo and passing are explicitly linked.

5. A short passing game is patient in nature and would thus make the counter attack obsolete.

6. One can conclude that the scout report is contradictary thus innacurate. Additionally then, one should not rely on the scout report for tactical implementation.

Any thoughts?

While they are linked, its not a must and you can play direct passing with a slow tempo for example in some cases. However this is more down to the shape of formation, mentalities of players etc.

No you can play a short passing game and still play fast tempo, its not a must just a mere guide. It depends on players, opposition, formation, etc though. Thats why some games it will work, some it won't.

As for counter attack, you can actually have a bit of success playing a slow counter attack game aslong as you have quality players. Look at Arsenal IRL, a prime example of this.

As for the scout reports they don't contradict, its just a failure of ackowledging what exactly things mean when they say em.

If you could only play 1 type of passing and tempo, then SI would have made it so you couldn' select another. For example you choosse short passing, then it would have to be slow tempo. However we know its not.

If people believe the scout reports are contradicting then fine, believe that. However myself its all I look at these days and judge how to play on these. Yet my success speaks volumes no matter which side I am, so they are not so obsolete as people think.

[UNITED!!!!!]

im sorry to nag but despite what you may feel cleon people do have a difficulty in understanding the scout reports and people like myself would be very grateful if you were to pass on some information regarding scout reports and how they work because you can't expect everybody to be as tactically astute as you are!

Just because you are a tactical genius and as you yourself have said earlier on have extensive knowledge of the game doesn't mean we all have. in this forum most people such as myself make posts to learn from tacticians like you and i feel it is a bit pointless to simply suggest that the clueless fools like me should just teach ourself when all we want is some help to improve our results!

once again i am sorry to complain but i just wanted to let you know

[Cleon]

Originally posted by UNITED!!!!!:

im sorry to nag but despite what you may feel cleon people do have a difficulty in understanding the scout reports and people like myself would be very grateful if you were to pass on some information regarding scout reports and how they work because you can't expect everybody to be as tactically astute as you are!

Just because you are a tactical genius and as you yourself have said earlier on have extensive knowledge of the game doesn't mean we all have. in this forum most people such as myself make posts to learn from tacticians like you and i feel it is a bit pointless to simply suggest that the clueless fools like me should just teach ourself when all we want is some help to improve our results!

once again i am sorry to complain but i just wanted to let you know

And thats fine, but im not gonna sit here and do guides 24/7 for people. Believe it or not I have a life too and have important things to do at times.

FM is one of them games, the more you put in the more you eventually get out. I'm not gonna simplyfy everything, I simply do not have the time to do so.

[shoey lad]

hi everyone, a fantastic read it really puts an insight into tweaking tactics. I have a question of my own i am playing a 442 diamond formation and am not sure whether to play wide or narrow. I keep thinking will playing wide give the amc a chance to make late runs into the box and score, or will he be more effective playing narrow so he can link up with the dmc. any answers would be appreciated.

[Benoit2]

Originally posted by Cleon:

Defensive is effective in England and one of main plays on FM. However manage on the continet like Brazil etc and you notice a huge difference. Btw what season are you in? as it also depends on who the managers are, im in 2014 atm and th EPL is full of Spanish and Italian managers, so the styles I come up against are really diverse at times.

Im only at the end of season two, but good to know the Brazilians are still attacking

Also, which of the two is the counter-attack option? My guess would be the second then (trying to exploit a counter-attack, but other wise just playing your normal game).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yes

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So playing a slow, short, progressive passing game (which Arsenal apparently do) would work alright with counter-attack ticked then? (which Arsenal also use then)

But how would that work defensively? You cant draw the opposition onto you by playing a high defensive line and closing down a lot, even if the counter-attack option is supposed to do this, can you? Once again, seems contradictory to me

The posts are getting shorter and the question fewer, were getting there

[UNITED!!!!!]

im sorry if i have offended you and i understand that you do have better things to do and i dont expect you to write guides 24/7!

i only wrote that post to see if you would be able to reveal a bit more info on how to tackle scout reports (sorry if i didn't make this clear!) I was only hoping that you would be able to help a little more regarding these reports than tell the idiots like me to work the reports out on the basis of 0 knowledge and especially when it is clear that there is confusion!

sorry for wasting your time!

[Cleon]

So playing a slow, short, progressive passing game (which Arsenal apparently do) would work alright with counter-attack ticked then? (which Arsenal also use then)

But how would that work defensively? You cant draw the opposition onto you by playing a high defensive line and closing down a lot, even if the counter-attack option is supposed to do this, can you? Once again, seems contradictory to me

The mentality is defensive of the team, so the mentalites will make them drop deeper and invite pressure. Because its defensive, it will make certain players reluctant to move forward. Hence inviting them onto you.

As for the d-line, its probably more normal than high, you've took the manual descriptions of the d-line and applied it to the scout report because of the 'progressive' text. However all that will probably mean is a slow, short tempo, hence progressive as well.

As for the closing down they don't close down high, or the scout report would mention something about a high pressur game.

I do understnd why people think its contradictory though, but hopefully people can see why I don't think it is contradicting.

hi everyone, a fantastic read it really puts an insight into tweaking tactics. I have a question of my own i am playing a 442 diamond formation and am not sure whether to play wide or narrow. I keep thinking will playing wide give the amc a chance to make late runs into the box and score, or will he be more effective playing narrow so he can link up with the dmc. any answers would be appreciated.

Search for th 442 threads, might help you better

[bean feast]

So to continue with the discussion of tempo and passing: Since I have had the new game and saw SI's tip that tempo and passing are linked, I have not once strayed from this rule. If I play a passing game of 4, I will play a tempo of 4. Have you personally tried a short passing and fast tempo approach? This would be my ideal form of football but I bet it's only successful at the highest levels. Thinking about it now, I would love to try it out. What would happen if you played a passing game of 1 and a tempo of 20? Pinball? I would be interested to know what you have seen.

It is very rare that I implement a global passing setting unless I want to play all out possession. Since I hardly ever start with a good team, this is not an option in the beginning. So, I wonder where tempo ties in then? For example, my centre backs play short passing (2), to hit my playmaker, and my full backs are on direct (18) to try and hit the channels. To put it simply, my passing is mixed throughout the whole team. Where then does tempo tie in? Do you not think that individual tempos should be in the next installment?

[Cleon]

im sorry if i have offended you and i understand that you do have better things to do and i dont expect you to write guides 24/7!

i only wrote that post to see if you would be able to reveal a bit more info on how to tackle scout reports (sorry if i didn't make this clear!) I was only hoping that you would be able to help a little more regarding these reports than tell the idiots like me to work the reports out on the basis of 0 knowledge and especially when it is clear that there is confusion!

sorry for wasting your time!

You not offended me, id help if I had the time but atm I don't. I'm sure ill get around to it it just not high on my list sorry.

But any questions etc I will try and answer at some point if possible. Remember though it will be my opinions and some might disagree

[bean feast]

Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">im sorry if i have offended you and i understand that you do have better things to do and i dont expect you to write guides 24/7!

i only wrote that post to see if you would be able to reveal a bit more info on how to tackle scout reports (sorry if i didn't make this clear!) I was only hoping that you would be able to help a little more regarding these reports than tell the idiots like me to work the reports out on the basis of 0 knowledge and especially when it is clear that there is confusion!

sorry for wasting your time!

You not offended me, id help if I had the time but atm I don't. I'm sure ill get around to it it just not high on my list sorry.

But any questions etc I will try and answer at some point if possible. Remember though it will be my opinions and some might disagree </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooooohh, that one was a little below the belt.

[Cleon]

So to continue with the discussion of tempo and passing: Since I have had the new game and saw SI's tip that tempo and passing are linked, I have not once strayed from this rule. If I play a passing game of 4, I will play a tempo of 4. Have you personally tried a short passing and fast tempo approach?

I currently play 3 passing and 16 tempo, it works well. But I have good players, so I am able to have the luxury of throwing the rule book out of the window.

This would be my ideal form of football but I bet it's only successful at the highest levels. Thinking about it now, I would love to try it out. What would happen if you played a passing game of 1 and a tempo of 20? Pinball? I would be interested to know what you have seen.

Can work with lower teams too, just need the right players. Good team work, workrate, stamina etc.

It is very rare that I implement a global passing setting unless I want to play all out possession. Since I hardly ever start with a good team, this is not an option in the beginning. So, I wonder where tempo ties in then? For example, my centre backs play short passing (2), to hit my playmaker, and my full backs are on direct (18) to try and hit the channels. To put it simply, my passing is mixed throughout the whole team.

I mirroed tempo and passing until 3rd season with Sheff Utd. Worked a treat

Do you not think that individual tempos should be in the next installment?

I hope so, I currently think this is a fault and it should already be in the game as an option

[Cleon]

Originally posted by bean feast:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">im sorry if i have offended you and i understand that you do have better things to do and i dont expect you to write guides 24/7!

i only wrote that post to see if you would be able to reveal a bit more info on how to tackle scout reports (sorry if i didn't make this clear!) I was only hoping that you would be able to help a little more regarding these reports than tell the idiots like me to work the reports out on the basis of 0 knowledge and especially when it is clear that there is confusion!

sorry for wasting your time!

You not offended me, id help if I had the time but atm I don't. I'm sure ill get around to it it just not high on my list sorry.

But any questions etc I will try and answer at some point if possible. Remember though it will be my opinions and some might disagree </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooooohh, that one was a little below the belt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I state in most of my topic in opening post that they are my own opinions and people might disagree If you read opening post of this thread, I say there is different ways to do things.

It might also be worth noting that people do things differently and just because one particular person does something a particular way, it doesn't make it a rule and mean it will always work.. These are just peoples ways of doing things and just to give you a better insight of the things you can try.

[UNITED!!!!!]

I mirroed tempo and passing until 3rd season with Sheff Utd. Worked a treat Smile

Does that mean that you had all your team on the same passing level becausei play the RoT under wwfan's theories and therefore my passing can vary from 2-16!

would you average it out or do you work it out a different way?

[bean feast]

And that's fair enough mate. I'm argumentative by nature and I like nothing more than a good old debate. I realise now that I may have been a little harsh on you. I feel slightly guilty now, but hopefully amongst the harshness you could see a slight glimmer of a point.

[Benoit2]

Originally posted by Cleon:

I currently play 3 passing and 16 tempo, it works well. But I have good players, so I am able to have the luxury of throwing the rule book out of the window.

Ah crap. I always play with Chelsea, so I dont need to tell you the kind of players I have, but Ive spent lots of time trying to understand all the tactical options and what (supposedly) does and doesnt work and try to build a tactic from that, and now I read you can toss the rulebook out the window because good players can make almost anything work?

I know throwing the rule book out the window is optional, but if doing so gets even more out of my players, then thats what I want.

Mentality, closing down, defensive line, tempo on 16 and passing on 3, would that work? (no individual instructions)

What other rules can I toss out the window? "Mentalities should be balanced across the board"?

Maybe Im just being far too conservative with Chelsea? Hell, you perform better with Sheffield United in the league in the first season with many signings, then I do with Chelsea in the first season with only two signings.. Makes me feel rather stupid.

[Benoit2]

Just some screenshots that show how similar most teams apparently play in season two:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1933/12292006185244ik7.jpg

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6192/12292006185343jw4.jpg

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3615/12292006185402ms3.jpg

If this is how my scout thinks they will play to me, then I can understand it (being Chelsea etc..). But is it really that? Because he clearly says that thats how they played in the match he watched.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by UNITED!!!!!:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I mirroed tempo and passing until 3rd season with Sheff Utd. Worked a treat Smile

Does that mean that you had all your team on the same passing level becausei play the RoT under wwfan's theories and therefore my passing can vary from 2-16!

would you average it out or do you work it out a different way? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never been a fan of the RoT myself, dunno why but it gives me problems at times, problems I can avoid by playing my own way.

I base my passing and tempo on the style of game I play. In my Sheff Utd game I played direct, fast tempo, defensive and counter attacking, and even though I won the league 1st season the AI still thoguht I was a pretty weak side until I showed I was consistent and my rep as a club improved. So this forced my had a little and made me play this way, however at the time it was the most effective way I could play.

And that's fair enough mate. I'm argumentative by nature and I like nothing more than a good old debate. I realise now that I may have been a little harsh on you. I feel slightly guilty now, but hopefully amongst the harshness you could see a slight glimmer of a point.

Thats fine, same natured as me then don't mind people arguing their point across at all and its what I love about the forum. As long as people don't get insultive and personal id take a good argument every day I know I must come across as an arrogant ***** at times, but im really not I get on with all and still see peoples side of things even though I might not agree. I just argue my point across too, to give people different insights. To m thats what a forum is about

Ah crap. I always play with Chelsea, so I dont need to tell you the kind of players I have, but Ive spent lots of time trying to understand all the tactical options and what (supposedly) does and doesnt work and try to build a tactic from that, and now I read you can toss the rulebook out the window because good players can make almost anything work?

I know throwing the rule book out the window is optional, but if doing so gets even more out of my players, then thats what I want.

Your best of starting small and then alter after something starts to work. For example keep things global see how that goes, if it starts to work fine and you think a little tweak etc is in order then do it. Then there will be a time whre you think ou can gt more out of them. When you reach this point, then is the time to go into the individual side of things and really begin to get the best of your players.

Don't do what most do and try and do it all in 1 go, that just confuses things dramatically.

Mentality, closing down, defensive line, tempo on 16 and passing on 3, would that work?

You'd be surprised at some of things I have had work on my games. I see no reason for that not to work.

Maybe when im testing FM2008 if im lucky enough, I maybe create some sort of diary for th forums and talk about what I learn and what I got to work and what I didn't get to work. Then people could see some of the crazy formations that don't look like they can work on paper, but in reality they do.

What other rules can I toss out the window? "Mentalities should be balanced across the board"?

Thats 1 rule I always stick too, my players mentality must all be simliar, if not I can't play as a cohesive unit. Everything else is change able, except mentalities for me. I'm not saying it wont work, just my own personal preference and the system I always play better with.

Maybe Im just being far too conservative with Chelsea? Hell, you perform better with Sheffield United in the league in the first season with many signings, then I do with Chelsea in the first season with only two signings.. Makes me feel rather stupid.

Thats the beauty of a relegation candidate side though, no pressure to win games. If I loose it doesn't matter as im expected to loose most games. Where as you loose 1 game and pressure is on, cos your expected to finish 1st no matter what. If you want to learn, go to a club with no expecations or a club with very little. You can learn so much from a club like Sheff Utd.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Benoit2:

Just some screenshots that show how similar most teams apparently play in season two:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1933/12292006185244ik7.jpg

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6192/12292006185343jw4.jpg

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/3615/12292006185402ms3.jpg

If this is how my scout thinks they will play to me, then I can understand it (being Chelsea etc..). But is it really that? Because he clearly says that thats how they played in the match he watched.

In Europe all teams I play, play defensive except Madrid or Barca and maybe Milan. The rest all play Defensive, I think this is a style thats good for Europe and 1 of the reasons I am so dominat in Europe as its a system I eploy a lot.

As for the league, I guess most teams outside the top 8 would play defensive as its very tigt outside the top 8. Well looking over my league tables it is over several seasons, like 4 points seperating 18th and 9th.

How do teams like Liverool and Man U line up against you? I've not had Man U play defensive yet against me, neither have I Chelsea or Spurs of all people. But the rest, do play it quite a lot until an influx of foreign managers comeinto the game.

Yet in Brazil, Spain and Russia I hardly ever come across a team who plays defensive. I think the game will change when you get further in like it does on mine. Its more a managers style problem whats at fault than anything. The English game is far too conservative for me at times.

[Uncle Sam]

When you manage in Brazil or Spain Cleon, do you play a slower tempo then? It seems the way to play in this version is simply to counter what the opposition does. How accurate would you say that statement is?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Uncle Sam:

When you manage in Brazil or Spain Cleon, do you play a slower tempo then? It seems the way to play in this version is simply to counter what the opposition does. How accurate would you say that statement is?

If a team plays fast against me I play slow to retain possession where possible. If they play slow, then I play fast and try and upset their game. I tend to try and always play the opposite of the AI and enforce my game upon them, rather than having them dictate to me.

[Benoit2]

Originally posted by Cleon:

Thats 1 rule I always stick too, my players mentality must all be simliar, if not I can't play as a cohesive unit. Everything else is change able, except mentalities for me. I'm not saying it wont work, just my own personal preference and the system I always play better with.

What about the team mentality though? Say, all players have individual mentalities in the range of 6-12. Where do you put the team mentality then? Is this also part of tweaking during a match, sometimes 6, sometimes 15 when needed etc?

Once again, the manual says that if you play with a defensive mentality, you'll want most of your players on a defensive mentality. However, if you put team mentality on attacking, you've got no players on attacking. Or is this specific rule another one you can toss out the window when you have a good side?

[Benoit2]

Originally posted by Cleon:

I tend to try and always play the opposite of the AI and enforce my game upon them, rather than having them dictate to me.

Whats better? Always using the same tempo so you're players get used to that (like the AI does, I reckon), or constantly play a different tempo (like you do then).

End of the day, in your matches you'll then always have one team play quick and the other play slow. Since neither is better perse, what difference does it make? You go quick to counter their slow, but at the same time their slow counters your quick. I dont get it.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Benoit2:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

Thats 1 rule I always stick too, my players mentality must all be simliar, if not I can't play as a cohesive unit. Everything else is change able, except mentalities for me. I'm not saying it wont work, just my own personal preference and the system I always play better with.

What about the team mentality though? Say, all players have individual mentalities in the range of 6-12. Where do you put the team mentality then? Is this also part of tweaking during a match, sometimes 6, sometimes 15 when needed etc?

Once again, the manual says that if you play with a defensive mentality, you'll want most of your players on a defensive mentality. However, if you put team mentality on attacking, you've got no players on attacking. Or is this specific rule another one you can toss out the window when you have a good side? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Team mentality is the one that determines what stle you play, i.e defensive, attacking etc. Individual mentality is a positional tool andagression tool. By this i mean it determines how far from his original position he either drops back or advances. So if you had a fullback on 20 mentality, hed probably be more positioned as a wingback if you saw the game. And so on,does that make sense? hope it does. It also means that for his closing down, he would be really agressive mannered. Whil a lower mentality would determine him to be more disciplined. They work hand in hand and don't override each other like some may think. If you do a test you are bound to see what I mean as its clearly visible.

Thats why people have more success with just by using global mentalities instead, as once you mess about with individual setting it becomes more messy and complicated as you then upset the balance of the squad. However this is how you get more out of players.

Team mentality is something I do change game by game, in game etc as and when needed though like you asked., individual settings I hardly ever touch.

[Benoit2]

So as long as individual mentalities are balanced, I can safely have the team mentality on attacking, even when I have no player on an individual attacking mentality? (contradictory to what the manual suggest)

[Cleon]

Whats better? Always using the same tempo so you're players get used to that (like the AI does, I reckon), or constantly play a different tempo (like you do then).

I always start a game by playing my own tempo what I normally use or prefer to use. Then after a while, maybe 20-30 mins if I think my attacks are too hurried id maybe alter the tempo to a more slower one. Or if I found my play was not getting forward enough, id up the tempo for a while and see if that improved.

Tempo is one of the ingame tweaks that I always do and constantly change several times during a match maybe, if I feel I need to.

End of the day, in your matches you'll then always have one team play quick and the other play slow. Since neither is better perse, what difference does it make? You go quick to counter their slow, but at the same time their slow counters your quick. I dont get it.

The AI probably wont counter it for 20 minutes or so, by then ive probably done my damage, so when they change to counter mine, I change again and again they will often see how it goes. Thats why I alter so much in a game at times, some times I don't have to change though ever. Yet some games I may need to 4 or 5 times.

Sometimes I may play fast though even though the opposition is, as I believe my players might be able to exploit the space they leave behind or give me possession cheaply.

Tempo is a fun setting to mess around with, tempo alone can change them draws into 2-1's etc. If you find you draw a lot, this is mainly a tempo issue imo.

Hope that makes sense to you

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Benoit2:

So as long as individual mentalities are balanced, I can safely have the team mentality on attacking, even when I have no player on an individual attacking mentality? (contradictory to what the manual suggest)

Remember though the manual is only a rough guide and not a set rule. But yeah I never have any players on attacking individual mentalites but often use it as a team one. But remember my individual mentalites are all very simliar, so while some ma not be on attacking mentality they all play closely together. If they were not, then id have huge problems playing attacking for example if all my players where on defensive individual ones because of it acting as a positional tool.

I know I bang on about it, but its balance, if you get the right balance you are stronger as a team rather than having strong individuals.

[Benoit2]

Originally posted by Cleon:

But yeah I never have any players on attacking individual mentalites but often use it as a team one.

Then you've just given me an additional tweaking tool during matches. And quite an important one as well