Underperfoming role, rate my tactic

[thizaum]

Hello,

 

I've been trying to implement a "pass and move, high pressing" tactic (following Guide to FM) and it has been working reasonably well, but there's a position/role that I think is underperfoming: AMC.

The only PI is on him: roam from position. I've also tried using take more risks. This player is one of the best on the team, but usually has a lower rating unless he has an assist or a goal. Using AP(s) could also be an option, but I didn't really want the magnet effect. I did want the "fluctuating" effect though.

Thoughts or recommendations? Feedback on the tactic as a whole is also welcome.

Cheers.

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, thizaum said:

Hello,

 

I've been trying to implement a "pass and move, high pressing" tactic (following Guide to FM) and it has been working reasonably well, but there's a position/role that I think is underperfoming: AMC.

The only PI is on him: roam from position. I've also tried using take more risks. This player is one of the best on the team, but usually has a lower rating unless he has an assist or a goal. Using AP(s) could also be an option, but I didn't really want the magnet effect. I did want the "fluctuating" effect though.

Thoughts or recommendations? Feedback on the tactic as a whole is also welcome.

Cheers.

You could try a Shadow Striker, that's a role whose output will be greatly shaped by the profile you put in the role (consider using an atypical player, not just a goalscorer).

I've seen a number of people struggling to get a lone AMC(s) involved in their setups. I've often focused on them as a customizable role where I do a deep dive into the PIs. 

[dieu]

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

You could try a Shadow Striker, that's a role whose output will be greatly shaped by the profile you put in the role (consider using an atypical player, not just a goalscorer).

I've seen a number of people struggling to get a lone AMC(s) involved in their setups. I've often focused on them as a customizable role where I do a deep dive into the PIs. 

I would also suggest trying a Trequartista. 

[thizaum]

12 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

You could try a Shadow Striker, that's a role whose output will be greatly shaped by the profile you put in the role (consider using an atypical player, not just a goalscorer).

I've seen a number of people struggling to get a lone AMC(s) involved in their setups. I've often focused on them as a customizable role where I do a deep dive into the PIs. 

Thanks. Okay, so I see 2 different suggestions here.

First, I'm not sure that the player(s) I'm using in this role are fit for an SS, especially because I think high finishing and off the ball would be needed. I see this guy as more of an creator. But let's say I try it. Wouldn't he "clash" with the PF(a)?

And secondly, I like and I agree with the option of customizing this role and probably AM(s) is the best option for that. If so, what would you add apart from "roam" and "take more risks"? Maybe "hold the ball" or "shoot less often" (I don't remember the exact name of the one the AP has). The strikers are already moving into channel.

 

8 hours ago, dieu said:

I would also suggest trying a Trequartista. 

I actually thought about the Enganche. But isn't it that all 3 of them (Tq, Eg and AP) have the magnet effect?

 

One thing that I thought could be happening is lack of space. This guy has 4 players around him boxing him in. Maybe if I moved him to the CM stratum and use a "less defensive minded" role like RPM, AP(a), CM(a) or BBM. I still want the 4-1-2-1-2 shape in the end.

Edited February 20 by thizaum

[OrientTillIDie]

I play a similar system and have had plenty of success with it. I can talk you through what I do if that will help in any way.

In midfield, on the same side I have my support striker, I have a Mezzala on Attack. This provides some width, as well as interchange and rotations with the support striker. I do go for an AP in the 10 role, either on Attack or Support depending on how positive I want to be and don’t find them to be too much of a magnet for the ball.

In defence, on the same side as my Mezzala (a), I have a WB(s). Relatively positive but doesn’t neglect defensive duties. On the opposite side, I go with a FB(a). He will then be covered by the Carrilero. Being symmetrical doesn’t always function well so this means lots of different spaces are being filled and creating plenty of different rotations across the field.

Team instructions - What I would say is that this system doesn’t necessarily lend itself to high pressing. That’s not to say it can’t work (before anyone tells me I’m wrong), but if you think about how many players you have in this system to press the opposition defence, you’ll always be outnumbered unless your full backs or central midfielders go sprinting wildly out of position in their attempts to press. That’s also not to say that you should tell them to Regroup; I keep everything on balanced - mid block press (or low block when I’m an underdog), standard defensive line, no counter press or regroup. I do have More Often for pressing, but only once the opposition really get into my half.

I’ve always viewed the narrow diamond to be a defensively solid tactic rather than a defensively aggressive tactic. You’re essentially flooding the middle of the park and forcing the opposition out wide (I also don’t want them having an easy ride crossing the ball so I have Stop Crosses clicked as well) rather than trying to catch the opposition with the ball in their half - ultimately, you don’t have enough players to match their defence and press effectively. 

[thizaum]

2 hours ago, OrientTillIDie said:

I play a similar system and have had plenty of success with it. I can talk you through what I do if that will help in any way.

In midfield, on the same side I have my support striker, I have a Mezzala on Attack. This provides some width, as well as interchange and rotations with the support striker. I do go for an AP in the 10 role, either on Attack or Support depending on how positive I want to be and don’t find them to be too much of a magnet for the ball.

In defence, on the same side as my Mezzala (a), I have a WB(s). Relatively positive but doesn’t neglect defensive duties. On the opposite side, I go with a FB(a). He will then be covered by the Carrilero. Being symmetrical doesn’t always function well so this means lots of different spaces are being filled and creating plenty of different rotations across the field.

Team instructions - What I would say is that this system doesn’t necessarily lend itself to high pressing. That’s not to say it can’t work (before anyone tells me I’m wrong), but if you think about how many players you have in this system to press the opposition defence, you’ll always be outnumbered unless your full backs or central midfielders go sprinting wildly out of position in their attempts to press. That’s also not to say that you should tell them to Regroup; I keep everything on balanced - mid block press (or low block when I’m an underdog), standard defensive line, no counter press or regroup. I do have More Often for pressing, but only once the opposition really get into my half.

I’ve always viewed the narrow diamond to be a defensively solid tactic rather than a defensively aggressive tactic. You’re essentially flooding the middle of the park and forcing the opposition out wide (I also don’t want them having an easy ride crossing the ball so I have Stop Crosses clicked as well) rather than trying to catch the opposition with the ball in their half - ultimately, you don’t have enough players to match their defence and press effectively. 

Your explanation is pretty clear. And there are things I can try to apply.

But the important question is: which mentality do you play? Balanced?

I'm wondering how these extra attack duties you have would affect what I have.

I'm rethinking about the AP (either s or a). I think it's worth the shot. I'll try it tonight when I play and post the results.

[OrientTillIDie]

30 minutes ago, thizaum said:

Your explanation is pretty clear. And there are things I can try to apply.

But the important question is: which mentality do you play? Balanced?

I'm wondering how these extra attack duties you have would affect what I have.

I'm rethinking about the AP (either s or a). I think it's worth the shot. I'll try it tonight when I play and post the results.

Sorry, completely forgot to specify that! I always start with Balanced at home and then change it depending on how things look after 20 minutes. Away from home, I often drop to cautious and push my press and defensive line back. I also have the AP on support rather than attack. 

[thizaum]

15 hours ago, OrientTillIDie said:

Sorry, completely forgot to specify that! I always start with Balanced at home and then change it depending on how things look after 20 minutes. Away from home, I often drop to cautious and push my press and defensive line back. I also have the AP on support rather than attack. 

Sure, no problem. Thanks.

It's curious because you do what people usually say we shouldn't do: change mentality too often and change TIs and duties alongside the team mentality. So, for example, when you go from Balanced to Cautious, your AMC's mentality already changes. When you change from (a) to (s), it changes even further.

I understand that mentality is like a broad tuning and TIs, PIs, roles and duties the fine tuning.

In any case, this discussion made me re-think my mentality last night while playing.

Considering what I'm aiming for (and I forgot to mention that it's a lower league team), what's the difference between Positive + lots of support duties and Cautious + more attack duties? Let's say that the "average player mentality" would be the same in both cases.

If I want movement (runs), I need more attack duties.

If I need more attack duties and I cannot afford to be so exposed or careless, I need to reduce the team mentality.

So I tried the same formation (and a 4-2-3-1 wide that I was working on) with the same roles, but with more attack duties (3 and 4, respectively) and 1 fewer defend duty (the holding DMC).

I don't have enough data yet, but the results seem promising.

Against a weaker team, I generated perhaps a lower xG (but still high-ish), but scored a good amount of goals (so improved accuracy). The opposition generated the same low xG, but didn't score. Before they would score like 2 goals with 0.4 xG.

Against a similar team, similar xG for both sides, but I won the match.

I still have to try it against a much stronger team, but with Positive I would loose by like 6-2, 7-2... If I loose by 3-0, I think it's already better (obviously).

And, going back to the OP, the AMC performed "normally" with the new mentality and duties. So above average rating for an above average player. =)

I'll post more date when I have it today or tomorrow.

[thokk]

Hi!

I'm using a very similar tactic, and had the same problem. Initially, I set him to Engancher, then AP and finally left him with AM(s). My conclusions were, that he was ignored by the team. Why?

Well, i also had a Mez, Car and two WB. Those roles, drible more and with high tempo the team hurries to get up. My solution was to change the mezzala to a BBM and those WB to FB, also dropping the high tempo. And voilà, he's much more ative. The team it's much more consistent defensivly, conceding very few goals.

[thizaum]

1 hour ago, thokk said:

 

I'm using a very similar tactic, and had the same problem. Initially, I set him to Engancher, then AP and finally left him with AM(s). My conclusions were, that he was ignored by the team. Why?

 

That makes sense. I was paying attention to the number of passes throughout the matches and he would have fewer passes then all the 4 players (or 5, depending on the formation) around him. Lowering the tempo/mentality solved that. Or at least improved that.

[DownTheFrank]

On 19/02/2024 at 20:49, thizaum said:

Hello,

 

I've been trying to implement a "pass and move, high pressing" tactic (following Guide to FM) and it has been working reasonably well, but there's a position/role that I think is underperfoming: AMC.

The only PI is on him: roam from position. I've also tried using take more risks. This player is one of the best on the team, but usually has a lower rating unless he has an assist or a goal. Using AP(s) could also be an option, but I didn't really want the magnet effect. I did want the "fluctuating" effect though.

Thoughts or recommendations? Feedback on the tactic as a whole is also welcome.

Cheers.

AP or Trequartista. 

I like to have trequartista for any AMC role that has two players ahead of him. You could also put the mezzala on the right and put him on attack to create a sort of 2/2 or 3/1 attack involving the AM/Mez and PF/DLF depending on your needs and or preferences.