Creating new European competition

[keon]

Hi,

I'm looking to create a new European competition which is basically the Europa Conference League part 2,

I want the competition to only feature clubs from countries outside of the top 5 highest coefficient (so basically, no English, Italian, Spanish, French or German teams). I was hoping to include Europa Conference League qualifier losers (although that might include a club from the above listed nations, unlikely though) + league qualifiers.

There are two things I was wondering:

1) Can excluding certain nations be achieved for this new European competition and only this competition? I believe it can using the 'Teams' screen in the advanced rules (screenshot attached) for the competition and making sure not to include the top 5 nations but wanted to check

2) Probably more important and hopefully easier to answer, how do you actually get to this screen? I've taken it from an old post:

For some reason I can't find a prepopulated version of this screen, only when I create a new competition and this screen is blank. Do I have to create it from scratch?

Thanks for any help!

Edited November 1, 2023 by keon

[rusty217]

I think that would require rebuilding the existing UEFA competitions from scratch. The qualifying system isn't editable. That screen you posted isn't accessible for existing competitions. You need to create an entirely new set to use it (and using it in a European competition would override the default one, hence why you'd need to rebuild all the competitions, rather than just adding a new one).

Doing that it would be pretty easy to exclude the top 5 nations, you just don't give them any qualifying spots and instead give them all to nations ranked 6th or below. But without doing that you can't do a competition that uses the coefficient qualifiers, so you can't exclude the top 5 nations. You can exclude specific nations pretty easily, but there would be no way to get those to change based on coefficients.

[keon]

Thank you for your response, I think I've seen your previous posts where you mentioned it so I thought I may have to recreate all the competitions!

One other thing as well I was thinking of, and not sure if this is possible either as it may be hardcoded, which is amend the European qualification spots by year?

What I am looking to do create a few different formats of the CL and the game cycles through the iterations every 4 years. I have created different formats which work (two group stages for example), but some formats I have come up with require the base number of teams in the group stage to change. As you know, currently it's 32 teams into the group stage, next season it's 36 teams. So for example, let's say in 2026 after the new format is in place, I want to revert back to the 'current' CL format of 32 teams in 8 groups, I tried this and the format was created but the game had 36 teams qualifying for the group stage, so 4 teams didn't go through to the next stage even though they went through via the qualifiers. I know I can change the number of teams which qualify at the beginning but I don't think you can have different iterations of the screenshot above and set what years they are valid for.

The other alternative is to create a separate competition I guess and assign that, but even then I think that won't work because that screen won't know which years a competition is valid for.

Thanks for any help!

[rusty217]

1 hour ago, keon said:

Thank you for your response, I think I've seen your previous posts where you mentioned it so I thought I may have to recreate all the competitions!

One other thing as well I was thinking of, and not sure if this is possible either as it may be hardcoded, which is amend the European qualification spots by year?

What I am looking to do create a few different formats of the CL and the game cycles through the iterations every 4 years. I have created different formats which work (two group stages for example), but some formats I have come up with require the base number of teams in the group stage to change. As you know, currently it's 32 teams into the group stage, next season it's 36 teams. So for example, let's say in 2026 after the new format is in place, I want to revert back to the 'current' CL format of 32 teams in 8 groups, I tried this and the format was created but the game had 36 teams qualifying for the group stage, so 4 teams didn't go through to the next stage even though they went through via the qualifiers. I know I can change the number of teams which qualify at the beginning but I don't think you can have different iterations of the screenshot above and set what years they are valid for.

The other alternative is to create a separate competition I guess and assign that, but even then I think that won't work because that screen won't know which years a competition is valid for.

Thanks for any help!

Yeah, as far as I know it's not possible to have alternate versions of the qualifying setup available. It's not something I've done much of myself though, so not 100% sure.

You could still do what you want via a different method however. Just use the same number of teams but change how the qualifying rounds are set up. So rather than qualifying more/less teams directly to the group stage when you want to adjust between 32/36 teams, instead you alter the qualifying setup to be say 2 rounds of qualifying when you want 36 teams and 3 rounds when you want 32 teams. As long as the seedings are consistent (and you could get teams to receive byes to the next round based on their coefficient even without altering seedings) then it should be possible.

[keon]

Great, thanks for your help!

Yea so for example, I want to create a 4 league stages with 12 teams each, so 48 teams overall. I guess I could tinker with the qualifying so that less teams go out and instead qualify, is that what you are implying?

The only problem I could foresee is that if I had 48 teams in the ‘main’ stage, I would want more clubs from the stronger nations (the top 6 of the PL for example), and not being able to amend the qualifying setup for future dates would restrict that but you did mention about byes and stuff so not sure if there’s a way to do this?

Sorry if I’m misunderstanding, the editor is a confusing beast!

I appreciate your help!

Thanks

[rusty217]

1 hour ago, keon said:

Great, thanks for your help!

Yea so for example, I want to create a 4 league stages with 12 teams each, so 48 teams overall. I guess I could tinker with the qualifying so that less teams go out and instead qualify, is that what you are implying?

The only problem I could foresee is that if I had 48 teams in the ‘main’ stage, I would want more clubs from the stronger nations (the top 6 of the PL for example), and not being able to amend the qualifying setup for future dates would restrict that but you did mention about byes and stuff so not sure if there’s a way to do this?

Sorry if I’m misunderstanding, the editor is a confusing beast!

I appreciate your help!

Thanks

Yep, that's exactly what I mean.

There might actually be a way to do that, but it could end up being messy. eg. you could qualify the extra teams to the UCL with seeding 6 or something. If you have the UCL version that needs extra teams, then get teams with seeding 6, if not, don't. And when you don't set the UEL to get teams qualified for the UCL with seeding 6 instead. Although when you're using the smaller version those teams would still be shown as qualifying for the UCL but then end up playing in the UEL instead. Like I said, messy.

[keon]

Thanks for that, yea I guess something like that could make sense, albeit messy as you say… just want a bit of variation but also, if I did extend the amount of teams, wouldn’t be the end of the world to take more teams from the qualifiers.

Just one last thing, back to this new European competition I’m looking to create which excludes the top 5 nations clubs, when I create the qualification spots, I just need to ignore the 5 nations numbers in the ‘first’ and ‘last’ nation boxes don’t I?

Thanks again

[rusty217]

10 hours ago, keon said:

Thanks for that, yea I guess something like that could make sense, albeit messy as you say… just want a bit of variation but also, if I did extend the amount of teams, wouldn’t be the end of the world to take more teams from the qualifiers.

Just one last thing, back to this new European competition I’m looking to create which excludes the top 5 nations clubs, when I create the qualification spots, I just need to ignore the 5 nations numbers in the ‘first’ and ‘last’ nation boxes don’t I?

Thanks again

Yep, that's what you'd need to do.

[themodelcitizen]

Yeah, as long as you account for those 36 "qualified teams" that have seeding "0" in the default rules (not sure if that also includes the teams qualifying from the prelims), it should work, but there's some weird hard-coding in the UCL that might cause issues. When I tried to muck with the default 36-team league stage too much it didn't like it.

You could do a Europa Conference League 2 anyway by not selecting "nations" or anything as part of the qualifying system (that would just break coefficients), and having a setup date after the Europa Conference League. Then have entries with "ignore teams" checked for "get best teams in competition" for the three UEFA club tournaments, then have following entries like "get best teams in division" with "max teams" set to "2" (or whatever) from countries like England. This would call the best 2 teams who weren't in any of the other comps.

Obviously this doesn't account for changing coefficients the way you want, but is a decent compromise

[keon]

Thanks for your response.

So just an update, because I hope posting about this stuff will help someone in the future:

Currently I'm focussing on the CL different variants. So what I want is:

The current 32 team, 8 group stage format. 
32 teams, 2 group stages (ala 2001/2002)
36 teams, league stage (the new variant)
40 teams, league stage

Changing the formats with the same base number of teams is fine so first two are OK to setup.

I'm using FM19 for testing, because I have a file which had CL, EL and Conference League setup already with seedings instead of building from scratch. There are probably other files which are more recent which have the European competitions built from scratch which are close to the current rules but for now, using FM19.

I'm looking at the 36 team and league stage format. Obviously this is already in FM23/FM24 but if I create a new European competition, I have to build the seedings/qualifications from scratch so I'm attempting to rebuild it myself to make the seedings system work for differing amount of teams in the CL group stage. So right now, using Rusty's advice, I've put 4 teams into a seeding which isn't used for the CL unless there's 36 teams. What I'm currently testing are all the European competitions to make sure that all the teams are going to the correct competition, regardless of the CL format being used.

I'm having trouble with the league format because the new CL format, in FM23, the coding for the fixtures is customised by SI. You can see it when you amend the competition, but for some reason, in the older editors (FM19 for example), there is a max number for custom fixtures which is less than 36 so I don't think I can do it, otherwise it will assume every team plays each other at least once. What I've done instead is still keep 36 teams, but put in 9 groups of 4 and 1 group has no qualification rules... just for testing to make sure the teams are assigned to the correct European competition. I'm still testing this now but it's looking quite promising, although not 100% so just sorting it.

Another alternative which we discussed earlier is just to amend the qualifying rounds to allow more teams through so you don't have to mess with seedings but you also have to do the same for the other European competitions as EL and ECL both require CL qualifying dropouts. I may revisit this if I can't get this semi automated seeding system working!

Also for the new European competition that I may create, to be honest I might actually not get any teams directly from the league system, I may just fill the tournament full of teams who lose in the ECL qualifying rounds. Makes it easier to create and also, makes it a little 'fairer' as those teams get to qualify for a European competition instead of nothing, while a 'worse' team in one of the mid/low European nations gets qualification!

I will update as I test more. Focussing on FM19 for now and will rebuild in FM24!

 

[keon]

@rusty217 @themodelcitizen, if you create custom European qualification in the screen I posted in the original post, does it become dynamic in the game? As in, like real life, European qualification places change by nation each year depending on how well the country's clubs perform in Europe. I would think it would remain dynamic as you are only changing the start qualification spots but wanted to double check if either of you guys know?

Thanks

[rusty217]

Just now, keon said:

@rusty217 @themodelcitizen, if you create custom European qualification in the screen I posted in the original post, does it become dynamic in the game? As in, like real life, European qualification places change by nation each year depending on how well the country's clubs perform in Europe. I would think it would remain dynamic as you are only changing the start qualification spots but wanted to double check if either of you guys know?

Thanks

It can, but you also need to setup how many years coefficients it takes into accounts, and of course set up the competitions to actually give out coefficient points. It won't use the existing coefficient setup at all, so you do need to add in all of that as well, it isn't automatic.

Also, as far as I'm aware there's no way to get your custom coefficients to display in game. The dynamic part works, nations will gain/lose places, you just can't actually see the nation coefficients.

[keon]

Thanks Rusty.

Just a couple of questions:

1) Do you know what screen in the editor allows you to amend the coefficient points awarded within a competition?

2) Will the below screen update by season or will this stay static too, even though the dynamic part is working?

 

Thank you for your help!

[rusty217]

1 hour ago, keon said:

Thanks Rusty.

Just a couple of questions:

1) Do you know what screen in the editor allows you to amend the coefficient points awarded within a competition?

2) Will the below screen update by season or will this stay static too, even though the dynamic part is working?

 

Thank you for your help!

1. This page.

In the Continental Cup Ranking Points section you can set up how many coefficient points to award for a win, draw, qualification etc. for each stage/round.

2. IIRC that screen is removed. Haven't really tested with Europe though. Pretty sure Asia's is removed for custom continental qualification. I think North America's stays, but then North America's qualification page is wrong even for the default competitions so that's probably there as a bug anyway.

Edited November 5, 2023 by rusty217

[keon]

Thanks Rusty for your answers, really appreciated!

It's a shame that screen is removed when you make custom rules but not the end of the world, as long as nations gain and lose places over the seasons and it's dynamic then I'm happy, I guess you could always monitor it slightly on the 'seedings' for the competitions too.

[rusty217]

Hey, FYI if you're updating to FM24 I just noticed there's now an Alternative Qualification Rules section where you can set up alternative qualifying systems depending on the year. Haven't tested it, but it sounds like exactly what you were asking for and should make it easy to do your varying size tournaments!

[keon]

Great, thanks Rusty for letting me know!

I might have a look ASAP because trying to recreate in FM23 has been a bit difficult, I was about to post my fmf file with some detail about what I'm trying to do but if this new section works as expected, I may not need to mess about with seedings after all!

Thanks

[keon]

I didn't want to create a new topic as this is related to the new European competition but hoping give this a view anyway. I'm getting 0 teams coming through to the group stage of my new competition.

So I've created a new tournament called 'UEFA Europa Fusion League' which is the new 4th tier tournament in Europe. It is made up of 64 teams. There are no qualifiers, just 16 groups of 4 and then R32, R16 etc.

Instead of messing about with the seedings page and recreating it all (I'm unfortunately stuck on that too but that's another subject), I've decided to populate this competition with losing teams from the Europa Conference League qualifying rounds. To make 64 teams, I wanted to take teams who lose at the Champions qualifying stage (14 teams, it seems to vary with the new league format between 14-18 so stuck to 14) and then specific numbers from 2nd, 3rd and 4th round qualifying to make up 64 teams. Choosing the teams, I want to choose teams from the lowest ranked nations first, to avoid clubs from the bigger nations... Not sure how to do that exactly but that's kind of secondary for now.

I've set the fate actions in the Europa Conference League for both the Champions/League qualification stage as so:

So in my mind, 5 losing teams from the second qualifying round of ECL will enter this new tournament.

I've set the 'Teams' section like so in the group stage of the EFL (Europa Fusion League, the new competition):

I think this is just for including teams which qualify through the league which don't have to go through qualifiers, looking at the other competitions but I've included it anyway.

The error I get is not being able to get the correct number of teams, in fact it's finding 0.

I know I can add things in the 'Teams' area like in the above snip but you can't choose 'pick losing teams' so that's why I think the approach via the 'Fate Actions' in the ECL screen is what I need to do.

The only other thing which I think could be playing a part is the 'Qualified Teams' section in the overall competition. Technically, there are no pre qualified teams as this new competition is dependant on the ECL but maybe something needs to be done there?

Can anyone help me on this please? I've attached my .fmf file. I'm hoping it's something simple I've overlooked!

Thanks!

No CL format - EFL added.fmf

[themodelcitizen]

Your setup date will need to be after that CL stage is completed. But you could also go with "get qualified team from stage" and then tell it which comp/stage you're getting it from, save any mix-up

[keon]

So the setup date of the whole competition needs to be changed to end of August for example? I have put the requirements for the group stage to start that stage 0 and 1 of the EConfL need to be completed.

The ‘get qualified team from stage’ angle did seem to work but I don’t think I can use that to get losers of a round, let alone only choosing X amount of losing teams and not all of them?

Thanks for your help!

[themodelcitizen]

You could "sort" them by "results in cup rounds" if you only, wanted, like, the 5 best losers

[keon]

@themodelcitizen I owe you big time! That has worked I think, the tournament seems to be running smoothly now and doing what I hoped for! I need to mess about with a few of the rules in terms of choosing the teams but it's working as hoped. Just going to let the game simulate for a number of years and see how it goes.

So it seems like you have to specify what teams are in each stage of a created competition, whereas I was thinking you could follow the default European competitions and not have to explicitly choose the qualified teams but apparently not.

If anyone is interested in this file or wants to do something similar, I am more than happy to help but thanks again @themodelcitizen for suggesting this method.

[themodelcitizen]

Euro stuff is arranged by seeding, I think a lot of that is done in the background with coefficients. That's how they sort the teams IIRC. And you can totally "get qualified teams" of losing rounds from a cup stage, just use fate actions that quality the losing team to a comp. But "Get qualified teams from stage" is probably simpler as long as it's all within the same season

[keon]

Yep I think the 'get qualified teams from stage' seems to be working. The only thing I've noticed is that some teams that are winning in the Conference League qualifiers are not going through to the group stage of the Conference League, they're just winning and not being entered anywhere so I need to see why that's happening, that's a little confusing.

[themodelcitizen]

Did you accidentally get rid of a fate action? Or is it that one in your screenshot "qualify team for stage, fourth qualifying round, winning team, group stage"? Try adding the competition (itself, aka Conference League), maybe it's getting confused now that there are multiple entries to different comps

[keon]

No I didn't change the fate actions so I think that's fine.

I think it's the number of teams taken from certain rounds is causing an issue. So for example, in the EConfL 2nd round League qualifying, I only want 15 losing teams to be chosen out of 45, but it looks more than 45 teams are qualifying. This is what I have in the EConfL fate actions:

 

And this is what I have in the EFL group stage 'Teams' section:

I tried using the 'Maximum Number of Teams in Overall List' option in the 1st screenshot from the Teams screen. When I did that and set the number to 15, it came up with an error saying not enough teams found... Not sure what the difference between the two options are.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Edited November 11, 2023 by keon

[themodelcitizen]

That likely means an issue with the comp elsewhere. I mean, if you're capping the entry at 15 teams that should be 15 teams, and it's throwing that up, then the rest of the entries aren't pulling enough teams. What about just using "get cup stage teams" and pulling them that way (can still keep the "fate actions" on the ECL so that people see in the rules what will happen to them if they lose)

[keon]

Like this?

I tried this and it's still not working.

I did some analysis and it seems like every time I start a new game, without changing the editor file, it picks up different numbers of teams from each round every time, both from Championship and League qualifying rounds. This is really bizarre, and it's very frustrating haha because I feel like it's going to be something simple and what I'm trying I don't think is that crazy.

Maybe the game just doesn't like taking a sub set of losing teams?

 

[themodelcitizen]

Weird, maybe there's some hard-coding as to what happens with teams knocked out of Europe. I wonder if there's an issue somewhere else though

Edited November 11, 2023 by themodelcitizen

[keon]

My guess is that there is an issue somewhere, I don't want to blame the underlying coding just yet as I'm a relative newbie to advanced editing!

I've kind of given up using X amount of losing teams from each round for now, it's painful trying to figure it out. I've simplified it a bit by choosing all losing teams from R2 league qualifying and all losing teams in the Champions qualifying path from the EConfL, that's got me to 63 teams but I need one more. I need to find one team somehow!

[keon]

Just an update on this if anyone is following or if anyone sees this in the future.

The tournament has been created and it is pulling through 64 teams in the group stage as I hoped. I've had to create a qualification playoff however just before the group stage.

It picks up a maximum of 18 losing teams from the EConfL Champions qualifying path and it takes a maximum of 45 losing teams from the EConfL League 2nd round qualifying. So that's 63 teams. There is now a playoff stage which has all losing teams from the EConfL third qualifying round as well and pits them together. There are 27 teams normally in this round however I've only chosen 26, so 1 random team doesn't get picked. And then from this playoff, a maximum of 3 winning teams go through to the group stage. The 3 teams are chosen by worst division reputation, to further safeguard against any bigger nation clubs maybe sneaking through.

The max number of teams which qualify is 66, and the reason is because the EConfL qualifying varies by year (in FM24 anyway). I don't really know why, but sometimes there's only 44 matches in the 2nd round qualifying, not entirely sure why but it can cause issues so that's why I've chosen a max of 66 teams, otherwise if you don't have enough, it will randomly pick another European team and cause issues, so this is the only workaround I can think of.

If anyone is interested in this file or has any questions about something they are looking to do in the future which is similar, please PM or respond here and I will gladly try and help!

I do have one more question. Is it possible to make the winners of this new competition I've created go into the Champions League group stage without changing the seedings? I want to put the winners of Conference League to be entered into the CL too. I know you can choose winners of competitions to be added into the 'Teams' section but in instances where the Conf league winner is already in the CL, I don't think it will use the logic to pick the next team correctly but maybe it will, but hopefully someone may know.

Thank you to those that have helped, especially @themodelcitizen and @rusty217

[keon]

@rusty217 or @themodelcitizen, sorry to bother you guys again but I have a query and solution which I'm hoping you guys might be able to confirm.

So the two things remaining on my list are to:

1) Get the winners of the Europa Conference League and my new European Fusion League to go into the CL group stage.

2) Amending the CL format to have a few different formats (40 team league with more clubs from the better nations for example).

For both, I was going to look into the pain staking task of creating the qualification places here:

And I know using this overrides other default European settings (dynamic league rep I believe) so I'm not really sure if I want to do this.

Instead of doing that however, is it possible to add teams in this screen?

So for example, let's say I wanted to add the winners of the two competitions mentioned above + 1 extra team from the two top European nations, can I add them in this 'qualified teams' part and then add them into whatever stage needed?

The difficulty I think with this is the knock on effect. So if I chose the team which finished 5th in the Prem for example to be added, they would usually qualify for the Europa League so the Europa League would fail I would have thought as it's missing a team. Is there a way to account for this issue? I guess I could then go into each European competition and add the same rule so it waterfalls down, but not sure if this is even feasible.

I saw some other topics you guys posted in to try and get as much info as possible and saw that maybe, this could be done. I mainly looked at this one:

If I have to create the custom qualification stuff, I will do that but feels like there is a way to maybe add the teams via the competition instead of the European rules.

Thanks for any help!

[rusty217]

1. You'd most likely have to create your own qualifying system for that. The issue is the Conference League. They're supposed to qualify for the Europa League by winning the Conference League. If you just add them to the UCL, then they'll end up playing in both the UCL and Europa. You could also add instructions to the Europa to ignore them, but since they automatically qualify for the group stage you'd then be 1 team short unless you amended the qualifiers to qualify 1 more team. But you'd only want that to happen in years where the Conference League winner qualifies for the Europa. Don't think it's possible to set things up like that.

2. You probably could do that with the default competitions. I think you could do it on the Teams section of the Stage you want to add them to rather than Qualified Teams. It would need quite a few rules in place to make sure you're not getting any duplicate teams or double qualifying teams for multiple European competitions, but I think it would be possible. Not something I've ever done though, so can't help much more than by saying I think it can be done.

[keon]

Thanks Rusty, I do think the cleanest approach would be the own qualifying system, because I believe it should give me much more flexibility... It's just so much work to try and figure it all out!

[rusty217]

12 minutes ago, keon said:

Thanks Rusty, I do think the cleanest approach would be the own qualifying system, because I believe it should give me much more flexibility... It's just so much work to try and figure it all out!

It really is! I've wanted to change up Asia for years but how difficult it is/how long it takes is what puts me off. Was looking forward to the IRL changes since that'd save me a job (potentially, not sure if I'll like the new formats yet, but wanted to try them out at least), unfortunately it wasn't added for FM24.

[keon]

9 minutes ago, rusty217 said:

It really is! I've wanted to change up Asia for years but how difficult it is/how long it takes is what puts me off. Was looking forward to the IRL changes since that'd save me a job (potentially, not sure if I'll like the new formats yet, but wanted to try them out at least), unfortunately it wasn't added for FM24.

Yes I saw that it wasn't properly integrated!

Is there not an older file from an older version you can use alongside the current editor which has a seeding system in place? If so and if you have two screens, can make it a little easier to mimic... Or copy parts of the XML.

I'm using the UEFA revivals files from FM19 by Carlito, as he rebuilt the seeding system for Europe so trying to mimic that in FM24 as it's a working prototype which should, in theory, work on FM24 but I think I'm being wishful in thinking that there won't be problems!

[keon]

Managed to copy Carlito's file (thanks @Carlito85 by the way, used one of your UEFA revival files to recreate the European seedings and competitions) to get what I need I think! So that's positive news.

One thing which I am having an issue with is what I kind of mentioned in point 1 but is actually regarding the CL and EL winners and the CL group stage. I want it to be like real life, that if the CL or EL winners have qualified into the CL via the league in that given season, that the extra CL place for the following seasons gets assigned elsewhere.

The issue I'm having is that when adding the CL holders and EL winners into the group stage via the coefficients like this:

England get 5 places in the CL because it's seen City are the holders, and it's now picking an extra place from England. Then let's say both the CL and EL winners are English the following year and both qualify into the CL via the league, the following year, there will be 6 English teams in the CL... So it is an issue doing it this way. I wonder if it's possible to put in rules somewhere? I've had a play around but to no avail.

Does anyone have any idea? Sorry for the random tag @Wolf_pd but I was searching the forums looking for answers and saw that your Iron Curtain file had a similar issue so not sure if you managed to figure something out which I could potentially look into?

Thanks!

Edited November 13, 2023 by keon

[Wolf_pd]

Just now, keon said:

Does anyone have any idea? Sorry for the random tag @Wolf_pd but I was searching the forums looking for answers and saw that your Iron Curtain file had a similar issue so not sure if you managed to figure something out which I could potentially look into?

Thanks!

Nope, we couldn't get it to work. In the end I removed the winner qualification for the next edition.

One solution I am thinking of (because it could work for me) is that I will give the winner of previous edition a bye to the second round.

[keon]

Ah OK then, yea I don't think a bye would work for my issue but thank you for your response! I reckon that 'get skipped rules' feature which I posted in the FM24 editor new features topic could be used somehow, I'm going to play around with it to see what it actually does!

[keon]

On 05/11/2023 at 11:24, rusty217 said:

It can, but you also need to setup how many years coefficients it takes into accounts, and of course set up the competitions to actually give out coefficient points. It won't use the existing coefficient setup at all, so you do need to add in all of that as well, it isn't automatic.

Also, as far as I'm aware there's no way to get your custom coefficients to display in game. The dynamic part works, nations will gain/lose places, you just can't actually see the nation coefficients.

Hey Rusty,

Just to let you know, I've used a custom coefficient system in Europe and I don't think the dynamic part works in FM24. I've simulated 4 years and the club spaces by nation in the CL for example hasn't changed at all... just an FYI if you are looking to do this in the future because for me, this is now a deal breaker as I'm going to pursue my objectives of different formats with the in game seeding system! Annoying.

Also I tried the "Alternative Qualification Rules" with what I think is right info and that didn't work either... Not too promising!

[rusty217]

4 hours ago, keon said:

Hey Rusty,

Just to let you know, I've used a custom coefficient system in Europe and I don't think the dynamic part works in FM24. I've simulated 4 years and the club spaces by nation in the CL for example hasn't changed at all... just an FYI if you are looking to do this in the future because for me, this is now a deal breaker as I'm going to pursue my objectives of different formats with the in game seeding system! Annoying.

Also I tried the "Alternative Qualification Rules" with what I think is right info and that didn't work either... Not too promising!

It works. I tested it in Asia using a small 14 team CL mini-league. Nations changed between 1 and 2 teams in the league. I was only doing it to test if dynamic rep/prize money works with custom coefficients in FM24 (it still doesn't), but the dynamic qualifying places based on coefficient do work at least.

[keon]

20 hours ago, rusty217 said:

It works. I tested it in Asia using a small 14 team CL mini-league. Nations changed between 1 and 2 teams in the league. I was only doing it to test if dynamic rep/prize money works with custom coefficients in FM24 (it still doesn't), but the dynamic qualifying places based on coefficient do work at least.

Apologies, it does change, the coefficients weren't set up correctly in the competitions so the dynamic part does work, tested it and the qualification places changed! I put random coefficient numbers in so can't get a full gauge but I'm sure it works as expected.

By the way, in terms of this project I'm looking at, I've decided to steer away from the custom seedings... too much hassle for me, not sure the positives outweigh the negatives personally.

@rusty217 or @themodelcitizen, I've asked before and you gave answers on the subject but just want to see what your views are on this particular issue I'm having.

If I do have a 4th tier European tournament and I want the winner to go into the CL group stage the following year, is this possible to do without changing the seedings? I'm thinking you can change the fate actions to qualify them for the competition when they win the final, but I think once the new European season kicks off, this fate action will then get overwritten by the default seedings and lost. Not sure if there are a combination of rules I can put in to get this working... to me I don't think it's possible based on the implications (the club may already be in the CL, there may be in another European competition and if moved, it will have knock on effects). Your thoughts are very valuable as maybe there is a way and there's an angle I've missed!

Thanks

[themodelcitizen]

I think you could get around it by having a flexible number of teams in the CL Qualifying round, set as a min/max (same with the other European comps to account for having or missing that one extra team). You can look at the default rules for the Asian Champions League prelims and how they deal with rankings with min/max teams in a stage

[rusty217]

12 hours ago, keon said:

@rusty217 or @themodelcitizen, I've asked before and you gave answers on the subject but just want to see what your views are on this particular issue I'm having.

If I do have a 4th tier European tournament and I want the winner to go into the CL group stage the following year, is this possible to do without changing the seedings? I'm thinking you can change the fate actions to qualify them for the competition when they win the final, but I think once the new European season kicks off, this fate action will then get overwritten by the default seedings and lost. Not sure if there are a combination of rules I can put in to get this working... to me I don't think it's possible based on the implications (the club may already be in the CL, there may be in another European competition and if moved, it will have knock on effects). Your thoughts are very valuable as maybe there is a way and there's an angle I've missed!

Thanks

I don't think so. Just seems too many issues. It'd be way too easy to end up with too many teams in the group stage. It would be easier to put them in one of the qualifying rounds instead (there's also the option of just pulling the last winner of the competition into a stage rather than qualifying them for the tournament). But even then you could still have issues with double qualifying. Everything should work at least, it's just possible they could end up playing both UCL and UEL or something depending on where they finished in the league.

I think the easiest way to add them to a competition would be the Conference League qualifiers. Qualifiers can account for an extra team (depending on setup) without messing things up, unlike the group stage, and you could set it up as a Team Pool (Get teams qualified for the UCL, UEL and UECL and Ignore them, then get the Fusion League winner). Then if they've qualified for a higher competition they'd be ignored and it would go as normal, if they haven't then they'd be put into the UECL qualifiers due to their Fusion League win.

Edit: I suppose you could use the same method to prevent playing in multiple competitions for the UCL too, although that would mean they'd get ignored from the UCL and play in the lower competition instead, so not really ideal.

Edited November 17, 2023 by rusty217

[keon]

11 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

I think you could get around it by having a flexible number of teams in the CL Qualifying round, set as a min/max (same with the other European comps to account for having or missing that one extra team). You can look at the default rules for the Asian Champions League prelims and how they deal with rankings with min/max teams in a stage

I have seen this on the editor and thought it was to do with this situation, but I don't get how it works.

The number of teams in the qualifying rounds are based on the seedings aren't they which have a set of teams, does it just ignore them somehow? Looking at the ACL (sorry I'm not too familiar with the structure), it has this for stage 0 (presuming this is pre quals):

But the round structure is this:

Wouldn't this cause an issue down the line if you didn't have 14 teams? If you had 13 for example, the playoff would have 2 teams and expect 6 to be added, but there's only 5 teams left to add... So what happens? Only 3 matches happen? And then a bye is given automatically?

Also if this team which won the new tournament had qualified for the Europa or Europa Conference via the league, I would have to account for less teams in these tournaments too?

If this min and max thing works and the game adjusts accordingly, then great I think... but based on what I know from the editor it isn't too flexible 🤣

[keon]

3 hours ago, rusty217 said:

I don't think so. Just seems too many issues. It'd be way too easy to end up with too many teams in the group stage. It would be easier to put them in one of the qualifying rounds instead (there's also the option of just pulling the last winner of the competition into a stage rather than qualifying them for the tournament). But even then you could still have issues with double qualifying. Everything should work at least, it's just possible they could end up playing both UCL and UEL or something depending on where they finished in the league.

I think the easiest way to add them to a competition would be the Conference League qualifiers. Qualifiers can account for an extra team (depending on setup) without messing things up, unlike the group stage, and you could set it up as a Team Pool (Get teams qualified for the UCL, UEL and UECL and Ignore them, then get the Fusion League winner). Then if they've qualified for a higher competition they'd be ignored and it would go as normal, if they haven't then they'd be put into the UECL qualifiers due to their Fusion League win.

Edit: I suppose you could use the same method to prevent playing in multiple competitions for the UCL too, although that would mean they'd get ignored from the UCL and play in the lower competition instead, so not really ideal.

Thanks Rusty.

Is it then possible to give the team a bye if they were put in the qualification round? So they get a bye for each qualification round until the group stage?

[rusty217]

17 minutes ago, keon said:

Thanks Rusty.

Is it then possible to give the team a bye if they were put in the qualification round? So they get a bye for each qualification round until the group stage?

I don't think so. I don't think it's possible to have a team not appear in a stage (without an error). It's not something I've ever tried though, but if it is then it would be possible to do. You could make an alternative qualifier with the requirement of having a specific number of teams (ie. 1 more than the regular qualifier) and set that to end up in 1 less match in the final round so 1 less team qualifies. You could then tell the group stage to get a team from that round with a specific seeding to make up for the extra team (and when that champion team qualifies normally through the league and avoids this, the group stage would find no teams with that seeding and the regular qualifying round would happen).

But yeah, not something I've ever tried, it might be possible but it will take a fair bit of experimenting to find out one way or the other.

[themodelcitizen]

Doesn't the Europa League winner get into the CL? So the game will have a process in place like that (none of the competitions break whether that Europa League winner has qualified for CL, EL, ECL or none of the above via their league. So it's doable, even if the coding isn't visible anywhere (?). I expect min/max teams and using "ignore teams" in other areas is the way to do it, just not sure exactly how, would need lots of testing

[rusty217]

1 hour ago, themodelcitizen said:

Doesn't the Europa League winner get into the CL? So the game will have a process in place like that (none of the competitions break whether that Europa League winner has qualified for CL, EL, ECL or none of the above via their league. So it's doable, even if the coding isn't visible anywhere (?). I expect min/max teams and using "ignore teams" in other areas is the way to do it, just not sure exactly how, would need lots of testing

That's done through the coefficient qualification system though. You could do the same if setting up your own coefficient system with the option there to qualify the winner of a competition for one of the continental competitions. Doing it separately from the coefficient system (so the game doesn't know to expect an extra team and reshuffle qualifying places accordingly) like the OP is trying to do is what makes it difficult.

[keon]

Hey both,

Just an FYI, I've kind of given up getting a fully automated, working situation haha. I've had to take shortcuts in the end... Tried so hard over the last few days but I just can't get a working solution which I'm happy with.

So I've managed to get the winners of the competition into the CL group stage, however there is a caveat; the winning team may be involved in another European competition, or even in the CL qualifying. In this case, I will have to manually intervene and make sure the team loses (save scumming probably). Also right now, one of the winners of the CL league qualifiers just doesn't progress into the group stage, but instead of dropping down to the EL, they just exit Europe completely but I am going to look into this to see if I can get something sorted but if I can't, I would rather the winners of the competition go through at the qualifying teams expense! So not perfect but I think the best I can get. Also my file won't ever verify haha so have to force it (qualified teams in CL not matching).

Thank you all that have helped coming up with suggestions and stuff.

I am still going to be doing some other bits but I think in terms of this 4th tier stuff, finally have a resolution!