Pep Guardiola 3-2-4-1

[korreynwa]

So i have been trying to emulate the Pep 3-2-4-1. This is what i came up with. Any ideas how to solve the defensive problems? 

It plays a really good football but the problem is that it doesnt defend as a 4-4-2 like Guardiola likes to defend on.

[ElJefe4]

The tactics screen shows the teams positions when out of possession, so in order to defend in a 442 you would need to set up in the tactics screen in something closer to a 442.

The Match Engine isn't as sophisticated as real life football teams when it comes to moving between different shapes when in and out of possession so an exact replication is very difficult.

If I was trying to replicate Man City, my first attempt would be something like:

I'd give my AM (A) the instruction to close down the corresponding opposition centre back so that he pushes up higher and forms a '2' with the striker.

Maybe look at restricting your DL's movement so that he acts more than a wide centre back in a 3. Maybe Dribble Less, Sit Narrower etc.

Stay Wider on the DCR might help.

Your CM (A) would benefit from Player Traits such as Gets Forward Whenever Possible etc. This would encourage him to push up and play closer to the forwards and help create a row of 4 behind your striker.

Unfortunately I've found that Inverted Wing Backs still stay quite wide when in possession. They will go in field but not half as often as the likes of Stones do it.

Edited May 9, 2023 by ElJefe4

[korreynwa]

13 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

The tactics screen shows the teams positions when out of possession, so in order to defend in a 442 you would need to set up in the tactics screen in something closer to a 442.

The Match Engine isn't as sophisticated as real life football teams when it comes to moving between different shapes when in and out of possession so an exact replication is very difficult.

If I was trying to replicate Man City, my first attempt would be something like:

I'd give my AM (A) the instruction to close down the corresponding opposition centre back so that he pushes up higher and forms a '2' with the striker.

Maybe look at restricting your DL's movement so that he acts more than a wide centre back in a 3. Maybe Dribble Less, Sit Narrower etc.

Stay Wider on the DCR might help.

Your CM (A) would benefit from Player Traits such as Gets Forward Whenever Possible etc. This would encourage him to push up and play closer to the forwards and help create a row of 4 behind your striker.

Unfortunately I've found that Inverted Wing Backs still stay quite wide when in possession. They will go in field but not half as often as the likes of Stones do it.

Problem with this is that it doesn't play even near the Guardiola setup. Inverted Wingbacks doesnt even cut in to make the 3-2 atb. Maybe its possible to defend in a 4-4-2 if u put OI?

[CKBrahMa]

Il y a 15 heures, korreynwa a dit :

So i have been trying to emulate the Pep 3-2-4-1. This is what i came up with. Any ideas how to solve the defensive problems? 

It plays a really good football but the problem is that it doesnt defend as a 4-4-2 like Guardiola likes to defend on.

As it has been said : IRL Football is way more complexe than FM. So you have to simplify.

I don’t have problem with a defensive 3-2, it can work as long as you’re aware that you’re going to struggle against wide comp’s.

I would put your DM on defense and the RGA on a more conservative role ? I’m not sure about a DLP-s as he may become a ball magnet, and he’s placed in a zone where you don’t want to loose the ball. Maybe a simple DM-s or a SV-s if you want a more B2B style.

I would also turn one of your WCB into a BPD and have the other on, at least support duty.

I would also tick down one notch the Pressing TI : you have it to max which is very dangerous.

 

Now, just few notes on your overall tactic :

- you only have one player on attack duty. I would put at least one of your wingers on A-duty ;

- I wouldn’t play with a wide width. I do think playing wide while recreating Pep’s style is a misconception. IMO, he does play narrow BUT have players staying wide to stretch the play (Wingers, IW with the stay wider PI). It also makes sense to play narrow when wanting to possession and counter pressing ;

- I wouldn’t have slow tempo AND WBIB. You pretty much ask your players to play MUCH SLOWER when near the box. I would rather have WBIB + normal tempo or slow tempo without WBIB

[ElJefe4]

4 hours ago, korreynwa said:

Problem with this is that it doesn't play even near the Guardiola setup. Inverted Wingbacks doesnt even cut in to make the 3-2 atb. Maybe its possible to defend in a 4-4-2 if u put OI?

I think it is a case of pick your poison. 

You can either set up to defend in a 442 and struggle to replicate the on the ball shape, or you can set up to replicate the on the ball shape and struggle to defend in a 442.

If you were setting up in a 3-2 at the back then maybe use Player Instructions for your Wide Centre Backs to mark the opposition AMR/AML position and then ask one of your Defensive Midfielders and your middle Centre Back to mark the opposition ST positions? I haven't really tried it that way so wouldn't be sure how successful it would be.

[RiverReveal666]

I assume its impossible to set up 4 at the back, have a CB (Stones) move into midfield and attacking positions while in possession, whilst keeping a back three made up of LB, CB and RB. 

Out of all the variations Pep has used over the years to flood the midfield, his use of Stones over the last couple of months has been my favourite. 

[Adonalsium]

I have tried fiddling with this system as well. I have not found a way to implement in a way that felt right to me. But I think actually Balanced mentality is more promising than Positive. 

[Jyuan83]

Unless there is a new role called the reverse halfback that allows the cb to step into the dm space during possession, it’s virtually to replicate pep’s 3241. The john stones role is crucial to its success.

[(sic)]

16 minutes ago, Jyuan83 said:

Unless there is a new role called the reverse halfback that allows the cb to step into the dm space during possession, it’s virtually to replicate pep’s 3241. The john stones role is crucial to its success.

Libero does that, but you can only use it from a central position.

 

I'd like to be proven wrong on this, but I don't think we'll get a realistic tactic creator any time soon. The ME can't handle it, the AI teams wouldn't handle it... And the question is, are we ever going to get a brand new ME, rather than getting constant updates on the current one (that's at least 10 years old at this point)?

There are so many things that are locked/hardcoded, so many movements are hardcoded and tied to certain roles, that users have no freedom of creating their own movements of players and freedom to choose positioning of players during each phase of play. Instead, all we have are 'presets' (player roles and duties) that can only be slightly and broadly tweaked by mentality, instructions and player traits. 

So replicating any sort of movement or positioning that real-life teams use, comes down to: have the devs included it in-game yet? In most cases the answer is no, and you have to wait for a few years to have something like that included in game (WCB role is the latest example). We are always a few years behind the current tactical trends.

There's no way for us as users to create custom movements/roles, because the match engine simply isn't capable of doing that, and the AI teams also aren't smart enough to deal with that. I'm fairly sure it would be very much possible with the current technology to create something like that, although it would be hard and expensive to do I assume, and it would certainly come with its own, different set of issues (all of which is why I'm thinking it won't come any time soon). 

 

 

All we can do is work with what we have, and realize that replicating real-life tactics 1:1 will not be a thing any time soon. It's incredibly frustrating for some (me included), but there's not much we can do about it.

 

Anyways here's my current tactic (which is not a complete replication of Pep, it also has hints of De Zerbi). 

The IWB won't form a double pivot with a DM, which is an issue. The FB-D will also stay kinda wide, and won't form a back 3, which is also an issue.

I want my wingers high and wide, hence the attack duties. This is more of a De Zerbi thing I think, and you could swap one (or both) to a support duty.

I still feel like using a Winger is much better than an IW, if you want your wide players to hold the width for longer. You could still have them cut inside, just make sure their stronger foot is on the opposite side of where they're playing, and that they have a trait to cut inside from the flank. 

Inverted wingers would sit narrower in the final third, once they cut inside, and you'd sometimes find them on the inside of a fullback (rather than being wider, outside). Also the AM would get in the way of the IW on the left, so a Winger was a natural solution to that.

 

Now obviously the movement and positioning of players won't be how they actually play in real life. Something I'm often frustrated with, for example, is how my wide players never cut off the passing lanes between CBs/Midfielders and Fullbacks. I've tried with different instructions, but it just doesn't work. They just stand around, doing nothing to prevent the pass, but they do close the fullback down once the pass is played.

[yonko]

I have to agree that the ME will take a while and maybe never catch up to replicating what Pep and other modern coaches do in real life. Pep specifically is always thinking of ways to explore player movement in and out of possession to dominate the play. 

Only in recent years FM finally caught up to what he was doing at Barca and Bayern around 10 years ago with players roles which in FM terms are HB and IWBs. Pep has been excellent at taking some older concepts and give them a modern twists. 

Lately I have observed that Pep has moved away from IWB and has started using Stones as CB that moves into midfield along side Rodri. While Gundogan pushes into more advanced positions along side KDB. The Belgian has more free role now to move around Haaland. The wingers, Grealish and Bernardo Silva, stay high and wide but they can both work hard to track back and help defend wide positions when needed. 

At the moment we don't have a CB role that acts like Stones plays unless the Libero role is made available for Back 4. But then the other CB and the two FBs will need to play as Back 3 when the Stones role moves into Midfield. It's too much shifting and movement for the ME and AI to handle/cope with. 

I agree that we will have to pick and choose which elements we want to replicate. But in general we can take inspiration and work with what we currently have in FM with the ME. Kinda like how real life coaches take inspirations from one another and work with what they currently have in their teams. 

[Adonalsium]

This is my current attempt at it. It keeps possession very well. AMC role can be a Trequartista as well - could even be better than an AP (At). 

A typical pass map: 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Adonalsium

[Mutumba]

What PIs are you guys using?