How to have your IWB to really tuck inside ?

[CKBrahMa]

Hi everyone !

I’m trying to have a box midfield, with the bottom of my box being the DM and the IWB.

However, during the games, it feels like, even if the IWB tucks a bit inside, it moves the box on his side (for me, on the left).

when Looking the pass map, the IWB looks to be a bit wide…

I’m playing in a 433

[Johnny Ace]

6 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

when Looking the pass map, the IWB looks to be a bit wide…

It will, it's a fullback at the end of the day and when in defence will defend just like one 

If you want him to lineup like a DM, play him at DM 

[CKBrahMa]

il y a 6 minutes, Johnny Ace a dit :

It will, it's a fullback at the end of the day and when in defence will defend just like one 

If you want him to lineup like a DM, play him at DM 

As I said, it’s also during a game, not only on the pass map.

If I played him as a DM, it would be better for the build up, but I may have a problem when we have to defend

[Johnny Ace]

4 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

As I said, it’s also during a game, not only on the pass map.

The IWB will invert but probably not as much as you'd like, an IWB doesn't become a DM 

6 minutes ago, CKBrahMa said:

If I played him as a DM, it would be better for the build up, but I may have a problem when we have to defend

Most likely it would, I don't think FM will blur the lines of positions enough, wide players are very much wide players and so forth so you just have to do the best you can with what the game allows  

[Johnny Ace]

You can get a wonky box with 3 at the back and 2 at DM

City's is a bit wonky too so it's not a million miles off

 

[CKBrahMa]

The box I was looking for is between the DM’s/IWB and the CM’s.

But I followed your idea to have a 3ATB and 2DM : works pretty great actually !

[dzek]

On 06/05/2023 at 13:22, Johnny Ace said:

If you want him to lineup like a DM, play him at DM 

@Johnny Ace which roles/duties you recommend for 3ATB with 2DMs? 

WCB - CD - WCB / defend duties

or

CD - CD -CD / defend duties

or

BPD - BPD - BPD / defend duties

Edited May 8, 2023 by dzek

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, dzek said:

@Johnny Ace which roles/duties you recommend for 3ATB with 2DMs? 

WCB - CD - WCB / defend duties

or

CD - CD -CD / defend duties

or

BPD - BPD - BPD / defend duties

A BPD (dribble more), CD, WCB (support) are a good starting point to set up a back 3. As a general rule, look to have at least two of the three (usually on the outside) capable of progressing the ball up the pitch.

WCB(d) just sits wide and holds, so he won't progress the ball as well. Usually if I use the role I would pair him behind a Wingback on attack or CWB. Fm23 limited the range of the WCB to get forward so a WCB(s) is still a defender first. You can play a BPD w fairly low dribbling and a WCB w fairly low crossing (it will still work fine).

You usually want the defender in the middle to have the best anticipation/jumping reach. If you're playing out from the back, he'll need to be able to play as well. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Cloud9

[Johnny Ace]

8 hours ago, dzek said:

@Johnny Ace which roles/duties you recommend for 3ATB with 2DMs? 

WCB - CD - WCB / defend duties

or

CD - CD -CD / defend duties

or

BPD - BPD - BPD / defend duties

Above, I was using WCBs, I was playing the Ake WCB role on S (the no.6) then a BPD in the middle (because City)

I'd probably always use the WCB in a 3 at the back tbh, it's what they're there for 

[dzek]

9 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

A BPD (dribble more), CD, WCB (support) are a good starting point to set up a back 3. As a general rule, look to have at least two of the three (usually on the outside) capable of progressing the ball up the pitch.

WCB(d) just sits wide and holds, so he won't progress the ball as well. Usually if I use the role I would pair him behind a Wingback on attack or CWB. Fm23 limited the range of the WCB to get forward so a WCB(s) is still a defender first. You can play a BPD w fairly low dribbling and a WCB w fairly low crossing (it will still work fine).

You usually want the defender in the middle to have the best anticipation/jumping reach. If you're playing out from the back, he'll need to be able to play as well. 

 

4 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Above, I was using WCBs, I was playing the Ake WCB role on S (the no.6) then a BPD in the middle (because City)

I'd probably always use the WCB in a 3 at the back tbh, it's what they're there for 

What if i dont use WBR/L at all? i mean a 343 DM system with the only wide players to be wingers? You still use WCB on support?

And btw i have another question about this setup if the opponents play with two IF or one IF and one IW, which is the best role and duty for wider central defenders mark/closing down them more efficiently?

[Johnny Ace]

5 minutes ago, dzek said:

What if i dont use WBR/L at all? i mean a 343 DM system with the only wide players to be wingers? You still use WCB on support?

I did, I had to move the Grealish role up to LM, to shove him up a bit like in the City average positions but I much prefer to have a WB myself

7 minutes ago, dzek said:

And btw i have another question about this setup if the opponents play with two IF or one IF and one IW, which is the best role and duty for wider central defenders mark/closing down them more efficiently?

A role? I'm not sure there's a role that will do that, a WCB should sit wider to help cover them but a L/RB or L/RWB are usually the players to track them, so make sure they have good defensive attributes and if they're flying forward that they have the Stamina, Work Rate and Acceleration etc to get back as soon as possible 

[dzek]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

A role? I'm not sure there's a role that will do that, a WCB should sit wider to help cover them but a L/RB or L/RWB are usually the players to track them, so make sure they have good defensive attributes and if they're flying forward that they have the Stamina, Work Rate and Acceleration etc to get back as soon as possible 

So with 3ATB without L/RB or L/RWB i will have problem with opposition's wider players and there is nothing i can do?

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, dzek said:

So with 3ATB without L/RB or L/RWB i will have problem with opposition's wider players and there is nothing i can do?

I honestly don't know I afraid, I don't use 3 at the back systems, I only did that one above to try and match Man City. It would leave you a bit stuck defensibly to play no backs I'd imagine. A R/LM could but it's something you'd need to look at, have him mark the IF and see if it's enough   

[Cleon]

21 minutes ago, dzek said:

So with 3ATB without L/RB or L/RWB i will have problem with opposition's wider players and there is nothing i can do?

Every system has issues somewhere against different formations. All back 3's or 5's can have issues against formations that utilise 2 wide players. That's not to say it has to be a massive issue but it's something you have to be aware of and plan for. As your using a 3-4-3 with 2 DM's what you can do is something like this;

• Ask the 2 outer strikers to mark the oppositions fullbacks, making their life hard so they can't progress the ball up the pitch without pressure. I.e forcing them to make quicker decisions.
• The wingers in your side can also be okay as they are. It's no different than using wingbacks in a back 3/5 system. But you can ask them to mark any other wide threats from the opposition, so AML/R/ML/R etc

I'd also not use WCB unless you want them to attack. Even on support duty, a BPD will do everything they do but do it much better. As someone who uses WCB's all the time I'd advise against using them unless you want more attacking options and forcing wide overloads. I wrote about WCB's here to give you more in-depth info. On support duty they don't really sit or offer protection. That's why BPD's or normal defenders are more suited, regarding the worries/concerns you have.

https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2023/03/22/wide-centre-backs-overlaps-underlaps-and-more

I've also written this as part of something else and not released it yet. But it's about the 3-5-2 vs 4-3-3 so it should give you an idea of how you should be thinking when facing other shapes. Just as an example.

Vulnerabilities 

Against a 4-3-3 formation, some potential vulnerabilities of the 3-5-2 formation include:

• Vulnerability to counterattacks: With five midfielders in the 3-5-2 formation, there may be more players committed to attack, leaving fewer players to cover the defensive transition. This could leave your defence vulnerable to counterattacks, especially if the opposition has pacey forwards.
• Lack of width in the attack: While the 3-5-2 formation can provide attacking flexibility, it may leave the attack narrow, with fewer options for attacking down the flanks. This can make it easier for the opposition to defend, especially if they are able to keep your wingbacks pinned back.
• Difficulty in marking opposition wingers: The 4-3-3 formation often relies on its wingers to provide the width and create scoring opportunities. However, with only three defenders in the backline, it can be difficult to mark both the opposition wingers and the lone striker effectively. This can lead to gaps in the defence that can be exploited by the opposition.

Overall, the success of the 3-5-2 formation against a 4-3-3 will depend on the specific tactics employed and the strengths of the players on the pitch. It is important to be aware of these potential vulnerabilities and adjust your tactics accordingly to minimize them.

4-3-3 Weakness

To exploit the weaknesses of a 4-3-3 formation when using a 3-5-2, you can consider the following tactics:

• Overload the midfield: The 4-3-3 formation relies heavily on the midfield trio to control the centre of the pitch. With a 3-5-2, you can field an extra midfielder to outnumber the opposition in midfield. This will make it difficult for the opposing midfielders to find space and limit their ability to control possession.
• Exploit the wide areas: The 4-3-3 formation often relies on the wingers to provide width in attack. However, with a 3-5-2, you can field two wingbacks to counter this. These wingbacks can push forward to create overloads on the flanks and deliver crosses into the box.
• Target the lone striker: With only one striker in the 4-3-3 formation, the opposition's attacking threat can be neutralized by marking the striker tightly. The three centre backs in the 3-5-2 formation can take turns to mark the striker, while the wingbacks can drop back to provide cover if needed.
• Press high up the pitch: The 4-3-3 formation can be vulnerable to high-pressure tactics as it relies heavily on possession-based football. By pressing high up the pitch, you can force turnovers and capitalize on mistakes made by the opposition.

By implementing these tactics, you can exploit the weaknesses of a 4-3-3 formation and gain a tactical advantage on the pitch.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Cleon

[dzek]

26 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Every system has issues somewhere against different formations. All back 3's or 5's can have issues against formations that utilise 2 wide players. That's not to say it has to be a massive issue but it's something you have to be aware of and plan for. As your using a 3-4-3 with 2 DM's what you can do is something like this;

• Ask the 2 outer strikers to mark the oppositions fullbacks, making their life hard so they can't progress the ball up the pitch without pressure. I.e forcing them to make quicker decisions.
• The wingers in your side can also be okay as they are. It's no different than using wingbacks in a back 3/5 system. But you can ask them to mark any other wide threats from the opposition, so AML/R/ML/R etc

I'd also not use WCB unless you want them to attack. Even on support duty, a BPD will do everything they do but do it much better. As someone who uses WCB's all the time I'd advise against using them unless you want more attacking options and forcing wide overloads. I wrote about WCB's here to give you more in-depth info. On support duty they don't really sit or offer protection. That's why BPD's or normal defenders are more suited, regarding the worries/concerns you have.

https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2023/03/22/wide-centre-backs-overlaps-underlaps-and-more

I've also written this as part of something else and not released it yet. But it's about the 3-5-2 vs 4-3-3 so it should give you an idea of how you should be thinking when facing other shapes. Just as an example.

Vulnerabilities 

Against a 4-3-3 formation, some potential vulnerabilities of the 3-5-2 formation include:

• Vulnerability to counterattacks: With five midfielders in the 3-5-2 formation, there may be more players committed to attack, leaving fewer players to cover the defensive transition. This could leave your defence vulnerable to counterattacks, especially if the opposition has pacey forwards.
• Lack of width in the attack: While the 3-5-2 formation can provide attacking flexibility, it may leave the attack narrow, with fewer options for attacking down the flanks. This can make it easier for the opposition to defend, especially if they are able to keep your wingbacks pinned back.
• Difficulty in marking opposition wingers: The 4-3-3 formation often relies on its wingers to provide the width and create scoring opportunities. However, with only three defenders in the backline, it can be difficult to mark both the opposition wingers and the lone striker effectively. This can lead to gaps in the defence that can be exploited by the opposition.

Overall, the success of the 3-5-2 formation against a 4-3-3 will depend on the specific tactics employed and the strengths of the players on the pitch. It is important to be aware of these potential vulnerabilities and adjust your tactics accordingly to minimize them.

4-3-3 Weakness

To exploit the weaknesses of a 4-3-3 formation when using a 3-5-2, you can consider the following tactics:

• Overload the midfield: The 4-3-3 formation relies heavily on the midfield trio to control the centre of the pitch. With a 3-5-2, you can field an extra midfielder to outnumber the opposition in midfield. This will make it difficult for the opposing midfielders to find space and limit their ability to control possession.
• Exploit the wide areas: The 4-3-3 formation often relies on the wingers to provide width in attack. However, with a 3-5-2, you can field two wingbacks to counter this. These wingbacks can push forward to create overloads on the flanks and deliver crosses into the box.
• Target the lone striker: With only one striker in the 4-3-3 formation, the opposition's attacking threat can be neutralized by marking the striker tightly. The three centre backs in the 3-5-2 formation can take turns to mark the striker, while the wingbacks can drop back to provide cover if needed.
• Press high up the pitch: The 4-3-3 formation can be vulnerable to high-pressure tactics as it relies heavily on possession-based football. By pressing high up the pitch, you can force turnovers and capitalize on mistakes made by the opposition.

By implementing these tactics, you can exploit the weaknesses of a 4-3-3 formation and gain a tactical advantage on the pitch.

Can you give me a screenshot of 3-5-2 example?

Edited May 9, 2023 by dzek

[Cleon]

58 minutes ago, dzek said:

Can you give me a screenshot of 3-5-2 example?

full thread 

[dazza11]

Here is my example of that box middle without using fullbacks, So, like most, ive been attempting the Pep recreation - the Stones role is impossible to recreate so its not a true reflection but ive had great success with this, as you can see you get the wide three at the back, the two screening infront of the defence, the box effect with the Mez and the SS. WM's stay really wide stretching the play, and it all filters into the main striker to bang the goals in. The main key thing for this to work defensively is ... I tell the NFB's to "mark specific position".. so left NFB marks the st (cr) and right NFB marks the st (cl)... This keeps them narrow, picking up players who move into that zone. Also I have the WM's taking throw ins otherwise it defaults to the fullbacks and pulls them out of position. 

Like all tactics it has its flaws but i like the box effect it gives me in the middle and the attacking threat is unreal. Works against all formations apart from teams that play 2 central strikers and an aggressive AM. Against those i use a back up tactic. 

[Lordluap]

Take player out of DM slots and move to CM slots, have on defensive mentality.  This will give your IWB a bit more space to tuck in to.

[CKBrahMa]

Just finish the season, here is the tactic :

Révélation

Here are some stats :

Révélation

I think it was the best football I ever played ! I really saw beautiful movement !

However, at the end of the season, I guess the IA found the huge weakness : the width. It was very hard to win, especially on away games.

I may change for a more balanced tactic next season, as it is very hard to play against 442 or double winged system

[CKBrahMa]

PSG, Barcelona, Madrid and Bayern wants to buy Martinelli after his season. Don't use this tactic, you'll loose all your best players...