Terrible 4231

[TheJanitor]

Hi everyone. Looking for your opinion on how to improve a 4231:

I wanted to create a positive 4231. Played just two games, but I can already see it is not working. We are barely creating any chances while being very leaky in defence. Scored 2 goals in 2 games, and one was a corner while another was a pen.

What I tried so far was to decrease the mentality to Balanced, which perhaps was slightly better. Also tried playing a SV/s instead of the DLP. Didn't notice anything, but I also didn't give it much time.

Would appreciate your input on how to improve this tactic!

[CJ_Randell]

I'd probably give it more than 2 games to fully bed in. 

You could try lowering the tempo back to standard as playing on Positive automatically increases the tempo slightly, this should give you a little bit more control. 

Maddison is a great attacking player, so maybe change his role to Attack and possibly Daka to an AF so he's making more runs in behind for Maddison to feed. 

[Johnny Ace]

Agree, it looks alright that, I'm not keen on the two playmakers though 

Did you go through preseason with this and get Tactical Familiarity up?

[Halbraum]

I don't see any big issue either. Even though i dislike that double-pivot pairing, doesn't mean it can't work well 

Your main problem might be your out of possession instructions though. High lines/high press on a high mentality is a risky business. You need great defenders that have good pace and good intelligence. Positioning, concentration and anticipation are key attributes in that regard. 

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Hi everyone. Looking for your opinion on how to improve a 4231:

I wanted to create a positive 4231. Played just two games, but I can already see it is not working. We are barely creating any chances while being very leaky in defence. Scored 2 goals in 2 games, and one was a corner while another was a pen.

What I tried so far was to decrease the mentality to Balanced, which perhaps was slightly better. Also tried playing a SV/s instead of the DLP. Didn't notice anything, but I also didn't give it much time.

Would appreciate your input on how to improve this tactic!

Looks like off the field stuff.

[TheJanitor]

Made the following changes:

a

Dropped the mentality, set Maddison to AM/a and Daka/A.

First game, beat Fulham 3-1, but it flattered us. They won the xG battle. Then beat Burnley in the cup 3-0, and lost to Newcastle 2-0 at home, but honestly it should have been more.

18 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Looks like off the field stuff.

Doubt it, no one is unhappy. It is very early in the season and I didn't get the chance to **** off anyone yet

On 25/04/2023 at 17:25, Johnny Ace said:

Agree, it looks alright that, I'm not keen on the two playmakers though 

Did you go through preseason with this and get Tactical Familiarity up?

Yep, always does. Had 9 pre-season games with mixed results against mostly lesser sides.

Honestly, I'm at a bit of a loss so far. Seems like one of those saves...

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

Honestly, I'm at a bit of a loss so far. Seems like one of those saves...

Seems it, there's nothing that screams out in either tactic to me 

[The #9.5]

A few things from me:

1) as others have said, DLP/s and AP/s are redundant - they mostly operate in similar zones and in a not possession-heavy system, there's no need for both. Plus, Maddison is much more all-rounded/all-action type of #10, so limiting him as a AP/s role is a waste of his skills. 

2) The 4-2-3-1 is notoriously more direct formation, perfectly suited to quicker transitions and direct attacks. Your initial set up had mostly the roles and team instructions for this. However, with a direct attacking forward (PF/a is much more closer to AF/a than any of the dropping roles (like DLF/a and CF/a), so he needs space. But then you asked your team to press high and push up on the position, limiting the space Daka and Barnes would like to operate. 

3) In contrast, your 2nd set up is now now even more direct with both Maddison and Dana looking to sprint in behind but then you have still asked them to push up on the opposition and press them high. In addition, you dropped the mentality to Balanced which is more suited to a possession-friendly system. 

All in all, there's contrasting tactics from you. You have to decide what want and how to achieve, balancing all things (team instructions and players' roles) together. 

Leicester are ideally suited for an aggressive mid-block, counter-attacking tactics given the profile of their attackers. They have the midfielders to play a more possession-based system but lack a technical/linking type of FW. An example of how this can be achieved: 

 

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, TheJanitor said:

Made the following changes:

a

Dropped the mentality, set Maddison to AM/a and Daka/A.

First game, beat Fulham 3-1, but it flattered us. They won the xG battle. Then beat Burnley in the cup 3-0, and lost to Newcastle 2-0 at home, but honestly it should have been more.

Doubt it, no one is unhappy. It is very early in the season and I didn't get the chance to **** off anyone yet

Yep, always does. Had 9 pre-season games with mixed results against mostly lesser sides.

Honestly, I'm at a bit of a loss so far. Seems like one of those saves...

Off the field stuff isn't just player happiness, a rocky start is usually down to pre season preparation:

• Match fitness (the most likely culprit for a poor start). Load to your first game of pre season and check if those bars are in the Green. Yellow or Red can mean you're spending the first games of the season catching up to pace.
• Tactical Familiarity, double check youre training your starting tactic and not your secondary.
• Managerial Support (particularly true if you play with no coaching badges or a low bonus at the start)
• Team Cohesion (Red is bad news bears)
• Morale
• Squad leaders, Leicester moved on a couple of senior players last summer (schmeichel and friends) so I would check your hierarchy and see how that's reflected in the game.  

You mention mixed results in your friendlys, I'd recommend playing them against very small teams and bashing them 11-0 for great boosts to the team dynamics.

If you're beating the small teams and losing to the big teams, you might want a more defensive setup to tackle those games. Leicester are in a relegation scrap IRL and taking the game to the big boys can land you in trouble. Don't think Leicester's backline and goalkeeper are particularly great and lack pace, that can make punching up difficult. Bashing Fulham 3-1 and Burnley 3-0 are great results. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Cloud9

[TheJanitor]

Thanks @The #9.5. Tried this tactic for three matches, and got 2 wins at home against Brighton and Villa and lost away to Wolves. Definitely a step in the right direction. Daka, Barnes, and Iheanacho picked up form, but Maddison not so much. I can see him making some pretty good runs though, so hopefully once the tactic clicks he will display more.

@Cloud9 It is true that Leicester defense is terrible, and this is probably the main thing impending my ability to play the style I wanted to initially. I guess I need to try and grind through at least until January and bring a defender or two + a keeper.

[Cloud9]

23 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

Thanks @The #9.5. Tried this tactic for three matches, and got 2 wins at home against Brighton and Villa and lost away to Wolves. Definitely a step in the right direction. Daka, Barnes, and Iheanacho picked up form, but Maddison not so much. I can see him making some pretty good runs though, so hopefully once the tactic clicks he will display more.

@Cloud9 It is true that Leicester defense is terrible, and this is probably the main thing impending my ability to play the style I wanted to initially. I guess I need to try and grind through at least until January and bring a defender or two + a keeper.

I agree on the Mid block tactic being a bit more suitable to the squad. Leicester have a number of really quick players so you might consider stretching the pitch a bit more. The mid block will help you cover up the defenders troubles as well. I would consider dropping play out from the back against tough opposition. 

If you're unhappy with the wins against the smalls teams, dropping tempo and stretching the pitch will see you control the game a bit more. You're going to be turning over the ball quite a lot with a high tempo. That's not a problem in the mid block system, but on high lines it can be. 

If you want Madison to perform better, you can stick "roam" on his role. He's got two holding midfielders behind him.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Cloud9

[Johnny Ace]

I don't think any of these are "terrible" by a long shot, one running theme in all 3 is the Higher Tempo. Positive will come with a baked in Tempo increase so maybe a TI I'd look to lose as a "base" TI to give the players more time on the ball. You can also play around with the Tempo during the game, start out using the default and increase or decrease it as the game goes on, it's a very powerful TI. If you find you're getting too many low XG chances during the match or are in a comfortable position, you can drop it down a notch or two to have more control over the game 

15 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

@Cloud9 It is true that Leicester defense is terrible, and this is probably the main thing impending my ability to play the style I wanted to initially. I guess I need to try and grind through at least until January and bring a defender or two + a keeper.

Thomas at left back looks to be a bit of weak link too

I don't know Leicester's preseason prediction at all, but try and aim for it or a few places higher and build on it over the seasons  

[TheJanitor]

Update after 18 games:

Playing the above 4231 + Maddison roaming.

6 wins, 6 losses, 6 draws. Honestly, not my best save but every win and goal feels so much better. I think I overestimated Leicester's starting squad, but I already got Lafont coming in January to hopefully improve things at the back. I do think I need a plan B for when facing smaller sides as we struggle to control games.

[Johnny Ace]

9th halfway through the season, I think Leicester would take that 

[Rich2086]

Another option for changes you could make to this is the tete position could become a winger on support then the right full back could be a complete wing back on attack. This would stretch the play out and give the players in the centre more space to work in rather than everyone attacking the same area. 

 

The DLP could also change to a Volante, DLP and Dm d are fairly static roles I think. 

I don't know what other strikers you have but a role that roams or drops into deeper positions would also probably work quite well in this system