How Do you create the "box" in a tactic in FM23?

[Lemon_Head]

So recently I have seen many high-level managers such as Pep Guardiola, Arteta, De Zerbi, and Xavi implement something called the "box" formation in their tactics. I'm not sure where to find some pictures or videos but it seems that some of these managers would use two midfielders in a 433 or 4231 to create a box-passing shape with its two defenders to dominate possession and to overload the midfield. 

 

Heres a good video made by Statman dave on how the box works. 

 

I was wondering if it is possible if something like this can be created in FM23? 

[1twoQ]

There is a tactical recreation thread here

 

I'd note though that all the managers you listed, while all playing a sort of box midfield de zerbi builds with 6 (as a 244 or 2422) where as the others tend to go with a form of 325 usually. 

 

I've found the building with 6 easiest to replicate, getting a 4 at the back to play as a true 325 (that isn't very lopsided) I've never really been able to replicate in FM. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by 1twoQ

[OJ403]

I've got something working quite nicely after joining Newcastle in late 2024 of a save. It's a relatively simple 4-3-3 with the AMR as a W-S and Jurrien Timber as a creative IWB-S behind - he forms part of the base of the box. In midfield I play an anchorman behind a BBM and an AP-A to complete the box.

Most of the managers you've discussed create a back 3 as part of their shape. In my system the left back is more attacking with my left winger cutting in to act as an extra "striker". Whilst it's a highly fluid shape, it could be described as a 2-2-4-2, but I'd hesitate to give it a label.

[The #9.5]

As a long time fan of the 4-2-3-1 (ever since Rafa Benítez's Valencia days), I've always took interest in how to make that shape (which is naturally inclined to offer direct and/or counter-attacking threat) more possession-friendly (if not heavy per se). In recent years and since ten Haag last couple of seasons at Ajax, I've been interested in the so called 4-2-1-3 modification of the 4-2-3-1 formation. 

The 4-2-1-3 (with the #10 more of an advanced #8 than a proper old-school playmaker or false 10 in the mould of Gerrard or Dele Alli), managers have been able to create either a 2-3-5, 3-2-5 or 3-1-6 build-up and attacking shapes. Recently, De Zerbi took this further and made his 2-4-4 look more like a very flexible 2-2-4-0 attacking shape.

I've started a Bayern M career recently and plan to use the following 4-2-3-1 that is really more of a 4-2-1-3 that aims to create all the modern possession-friendly attacking shapes. At Bayern, my plan is to have it being even more flexible given the split double pivot and flanks roles: 

- the RB has 'sit narrower' while the IW has 'stay wider' to emphasise on any potential temporary back 3 build-up with the Volante given freedom and space to bomb forward and level with the #10

- Mane will often drop in and form a double #10s in possession, allowing space for the #10 or the wingers to get in behind - very typical for De Zerbi's teams - before heading into the box himself

- Muller's role is very flexible - he will often be deep during build-up but then head in and around the box in the final 3rd (moves into channels, get further forward further helps that)

- on the left I have more typical overlap with Gnabry being another goal-scoring option in an IF/s role.

- my main alternative (except for swapping flanks when I need to rest Davies and use the RB as the more attacking) is to use Mane as a shadow striker behind either Muller (as DLF/s) or Choupo-Moting (as TF/s). I plan to use this against back 3 formations. 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by The #9.5

[Lemon_Head]

59 minutes ago, The #9.5 said:

As a long time fan of the 4-2-3-1 (ever since Rafa Benítez's Valencia days), I've always took interest in how to make that shape (which is naturally inclined to offer direct and/or counter-attacking threat) more possession-friendly (if not heavy per se). In recent years and since ten Haag last couple of seasons at Ajax, I've been interested in the so called 4-2-1-3 modification of the 4-2-3-1 formation. 

The 4-2-1-3 (with the #10 more of an advanced #8 than a proper old-school playmaker or false 10 in the mould of Gerrard or Dele Alli), managers have been able to create either a 2-3-5, 3-2-5 or 3-1-6 build-up and attacking shapes. Recently, De Zerbi took this further and made his 2-4-4 look more like a very flexible 2-2-4-0 attacking shape.

I've started a Bayern M career recently and plan to use the following 4-2-3-1 that is really more of a 4-2-1-3 that aims to create all the modern possession-friendly attacking shapes. At Bayern, my plan is to have it being even more flexible given the split double pivot and flanks roles: 

- the RB has 'sit narrower' while the IW has 'stay wider' to emphasise on any potential temporary back 3 build-up with the Volante given freedom and space to bomb forward and level with the #10

- Mane will often drop in and form a double #10s in possession, allowing space for the #10 or the wingers to get in behind - very typical for De Zerbi's teams - before heading into the box himself

- Muller's role is very flexible - he will often be deep during build-up but then head in and around the box in the final 3rd (moves into channels, get further forward further helps that)

- on the left I have more typical overlap with Gnabry being another goal-scoring option in an IF/s role.

- my main alternative (except for swapping flanks when I need to rest Davies and use the RB as the more attacking) is to use Mane as a shadow striker behind either Muller (as DLF/s) or Choupo-Moting (as TF/s). I plan to use this against back 3 formations. 

 

That's awesome I was wondering if it's possible for it to work in a 433?

 

I also was wondering if you can show a picture of the passing map for this team. I'm really curious to see what its like

Edited March 11, 2023 by Lemon_Head

[Lemon_Head]

2 hours ago, OJ403 said:

I've got something working quite nicely after joining Newcastle in late 2024 of a save. It's a relatively simple 4-3-3 with the AMR as a W-S and Jurrien Timber as a creative IWB-S behind - he forms part of the base of the box. In midfield I play an anchorman behind a BBM and an AP-A to complete the box.

Most of the managers you've discussed create a back 3 as part of their shape. In my system the left back is more attacking with my left winger cutting in to act as an extra "striker". Whilst it's a highly fluid shape, it could be described as a 2-2-4-2, but I'd hesitate to give it a label.

That's really cool do you mind positing a picture of the tactic? I would love to take a look at it and see if I can replicate it in my save

[The #9.5]

1 hour ago, Lemon_Head said:

That's awesome I was wondering if it's possible for it to work in a 433?

 

I also was wondering if you can show a picture of the passing map for this team. I'm really curious to see what its like

It'll be harder to create a proper 'box' from a 4-3-3 structure as this formation could create diamonds. If this works for you, you can do the Barca way with Gavi coming infield from LW to create a diamond midfield. Sometimes it'll naturally form more of a box structure when the DLP drops deeper and the AP levels with the Mezz. If you want to further flatten the diamond and create even closer to a box unit, you can drop the DLP to defend duty and the AP to support duty. But neither of these variants will be as 'box-y' as the 4-2-1-3. 

 

 

And here's the pass map from my recent Super Cup clash with RBL: 

Edited March 11, 2023 by The #9.5

[vrig]

3 hours ago, The #9.5 said:

It'll be harder to create a proper 'box' from a 4-3-3 structure as this formation could create diamonds. If this works for you, you can do the Barca way with Gavi coming infield from LW to create a diamond midfield. Sometimes it'll naturally form more of a box structure when the DLP drops deeper and the AP levels with the Mezz. If you want to further flatten the diamond and create even closer to a box unit, you can drop the DLP to defend duty and the AP to support duty. But neither of these variants will be as 'box-y' as the 4-2-1-3. 

 

 

And here's the pass map from my recent Super Cup clash with RBL: 

A DLP(d) who has 'Comes deep to get the ball' makes it pretty damn box-y. I've used Eriksen in that position for a spell and it worked a treat.

[OJ403]

5 hours ago, Lemon_Head said:

That's really cool do you mind positing a picture of the tactic? I would love to take a look at it and see if I can replicate it in my save

I am away from home at the moment so don't have access to my computer, but from memory it's something like this:

IF-A -- AF-A -- W-S

BBM-S -- AP-A

A-D

WB-S -- CD-D -- CD-D -- IWB-S

SK-S

Positive mentality

Much shorter passing (bottom level), slightly higher tempo (one level up)

Counter, goalkeeper slow distribution, roll it out

High block, higher defensive line (one level up), slightly more urgent pressing (one level up), step up more

There's no PIs on either, although I tend to recruit with traits in mind. Killer balls on my IWB, AP, W and IF are key.

 

[The #9.5]

On 11/03/2023 at 12:03, The #9.5 said:

As a long time fan of the 4-2-3-1 (ever since Rafa Benítez's Valencia days), I've always took interest in how to make that shape (which is naturally inclined to offer direct and/or counter-attacking threat) more possession-friendly (if not heavy per se). In recent years and since ten Haag last couple of seasons at Ajax, I've been interested in the so called 4-2-1-3 modification of the 4-2-3-1 formation. 

The 4-2-1-3 (with the #10 more of an advanced #8 than a proper old-school playmaker or false 10 in the mould of Gerrard or Dele Alli), managers have been able to create either a 2-3-5, 3-2-5 or 3-1-6 build-up and attacking shapes. Recently, De Zerbi took this further and made his 2-4-4 look more like a very flexible 2-2-4-0 attacking shape.

I've started a Bayern M career recently and plan to use the following 4-2-3-1 that is really more of a 4-2-1-3 that aims to create all the modern possession-friendly attacking shapes. At Bayern, my plan is to have it being even more flexible given the split double pivot and flanks roles: 

- the RB has 'sit narrower' while the IW has 'stay wider' to emphasise on any potential temporary back 3 build-up with the Volante given freedom and space to bomb forward and level with the #10

- Mane will often drop in and form a double #10s in possession, allowing space for the #10 or the wingers to get in behind - very typical for De Zerbi's teams - before heading into the box himself

- Muller's role is very flexible - he will often be deep during build-up but then head in and around the box in the final 3rd (moves into channels, get further forward further helps that)

- on the left I have more typical overlap with Gnabry being another goal-scoring option in an IF/s role.

- my main alternative (except for swapping flanks when I need to rest Davies and use the RB as the more attacking) is to use Mane as a shadow striker behind either Muller (as DLF/s) or Choupo-Moting (as TF/s). I plan to use this against back 3 formations. 

 

I've now played half a dozen games with the above 4-2-1-3 setup and while things are generally going well, I'm not happy with how the AM and FW move.

The main issue is that, while both are sometimes dropping deep and closer to each as a double #10s, this doesn't always happen (which is my idea). There's been some situations when the FW is pushing forward while the AM is dropping deeper, which even further increases the gap between the two. All of this is to be expected given their duties but initially I thought the DLF will drop deep and pull wide more often even with attack-duty. 

I'm now going to try a SS/a and DLF/s (or TF/s when Choupo-Moting plays) pair to see if the two players can be closer together and in deeper areas far more often (in a bid to create the 2-4-4 shape). I'd expect this to be the case as the selected now roles indicate both should be initially dropping in the early build-up and midfield progression phase; then both should look to get forward and combine with the rest on the run. Which is exactly how I'd like to see the team build-up and attacking in such a 2-4-4/2-6-0 formation.  

Will play some games and report back how my idea plays out in the match engine. 

[The #9.5]

Getting there (the first is v a 4-3-3 opponent, the second is v a 3-4-2-1 one):

 

[Danielmz]

Not exactly as the examples you mentioned, but I was able to achieve a box with my tactic, which is heavily inspired by the discussions on the RDZ recreation thread and tinkered to my squad characteristics (all credits to the people from that thread). The tactic is still quite passive to my likening but there is not much I can do as my squad isn't as good as the majority of my opponents and I am still struggling with the attacking duo (ST and AMC). I do like the overall shape tho.

Still, it is getting me results and I'm currently 4th in the league after 26 games (tipped to finish 18th). My team also has the best record for average possession (64%), total passes completed (4.000 more than the 2nd best) and xGA (while having the 5th worst for xG ).

The first pass map is from a home game we won fair and square and the other is from an away match we played badly but still managed a draw in the end of the game.

Spoiler

Edited March 13, 2023 by Danielmz

[LukeSavo]

On 13/03/2023 at 12:14, The #9.5 said:

Getting there (the first is v a 4-3-3 opponent, the second is v a 3-4-2-1 one):

 

Not gonna lie mate love the box shape  and I’ve become embarrassingly obsessed with the 244!😂 Did you end up getting it to what you wanted? Would love to give your tactic a go mate

[The #9.5]

Yes,  I did get what I wanted in the Bayern M demo save. I switched saves now but will use this approach again with Dortmund (once Reus is back fit to play the Shadow Striker role). 

 

 

[LukeSavo]

On 23/04/2023 at 14:55, The #9.5 said:

Yes,  I did get what I wanted in the Bayern M demo save. I switched saves now but will use this approach again with Dortmund (once Reus is back fit to play the Shadow Striker role). 

 

 

Any PI's bud? Want to give it a go properly. Thanks!

Edited April 24, 2023 by LukeSavo

[The #9.5]

Nothing major - just roaming and go forward on the IW and from time to time more killer balls for the FBs. 

[Lordluap]

Try a 442... with IWBs...

 

Something like:

IWB/S - CD/D - CD - IWB/S

W/A - CM/A - AP/A - W/A

           DLF/S - AF/A

 

Will give you a box formation in the Defence & Midfield 2-2-4-2 / 2-2-6 shape.

 

 

 

[Duracellio]

Em 12/03/2023 em 12:09, The #9.5 disse:

I've now played half a dozen games with the above 4-2-1-3 setup and while things are generally going well, I'm not happy with how the AM and FW move.

The main issue is that, while both are sometimes dropping deep and closer to each as a double #10s, this doesn't always happen (which is my idea). There's been some situations when the FW is pushing forward while the AM is dropping deeper, which even further increases the gap between the two. All of this is to be expected given their duties but initially I thought the DLF will drop deep and pull wide more often even with attack-duty. 

I'm now going to try a SS/a and DLF/s (or TF/s when Choupo-Moting plays) pair to see if the two players can be closer together and in deeper areas far more often (in a bid to create the 2-4-4 shape). I'd expect this to be the case as the selected now roles indicate both should be initially dropping in the early build-up and midfield progression phase; then both should look to get forward and combine with the rest on the run. Which is exactly how I'd like to see the team build-up and attacking in such a 2-4-4/2-6-0 formation.  

Will play some games and report back how my idea plays out in the match engine. 

I am running a very very similar system (4231), and I am struggling to achieve exactly this:

Citar

"The main issue is that, while both are sometimes dropping deep and closer to each as a double #10s, this doesn't always happen"

Having the striker to drop close to the AMC is the most imortant thing in the way I try to play, specially against opponents with 3 midfielders, because it is what enables the team to counter the fact that we are simply outnumbered in the central and most important area of the pitch:

When you can make this happen, the football you get from it, is just awesome and is the diference between loosing the ball to your AMC versus 3 midfielders and giving a counter attack or finding the space to get a goal:

https://streamable.com/zi2ufj

My problem is achieving this behaviour from the striker constantly during the matches...

Have you managed to find any kind of solution for this?

Edited August 9, 2023 by Duracellio

[The #9.5]

@Duracellio Later in the thread I showed what system I've eventually ended up with to prevent this issue - DLF/s + SS/a. Almost always gives you a 4-6-0ish formation (or 2-2-6 in attack). 

[Duracellio]

So in the end it worked for you?

Did the underlaps in both the sides helped on that?

Edited August 9, 2023 by Duracellio

[The #9.5]

Yes, I've eventually added the 'underlaps' instructions to prevent the wingers going forward too soon and be detached from the full-backs. I just wanted to underline the importance of the AM/FW being the central piece of the system. Tried the instruction and I liked the effect of it, so I've kept it. 

[cocoadavid]

The below variaton works me pretty well for me.

• On paper this is a 4-3-3.
• When playing out from the back, it is a 4-2-4.
• Then, this morfs into 3-2-5, the BWM and RGA forming the bottom of the box midfield, while the IW and MEZ forming the top of the box.
• (If you want your left winger to move to the central zones even more, you can change his role to AP)
• Out of possession it often looks 4-4-2-ish (the MEZ steps up next to the striker while the RGA steps up next to the BWM).

 

 

Player isntructions:

• FB: sit narrower
• BPD: stay wider
• WB: stay wider
• MEZ: run wide with ball
• IW: sit narrower, roam from position

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by cocoadavid

[Lemon_Head]

19 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

The below variaton works me pretty well for me.

• On paper this is a 4-3-3.
• When playing out from the back, it is a 4-2-4.
• Then, this morfs into 3-2-5, the BWM and RGA forming the bottom of the box midfield, while the IW and MEZ forming the top of the box.
• (If you want your left winger to move to the central zones even more, you can change his role to AP)
• Out of possession it often looks 4-4-2-ish (the MEZ steps up next to the striker while the RGA steps up next to the BWM).

 

 

Player isntructions:

• FB: sit narrower
• BPD: stay wider
• WB: stay wider
• MEZ: run wide with ball
• IW: sit narrower, roam from position

 

 

Have your tried a NFB than a FB on defend? I feel like at times the FB on defend still moves up too much 

[cocoadavid]

18 hours ago, Lemon_Head said:

Have your tried a NFB than a FB on defend? I feel like at times the FB on defend still moves up too much 

I've not tried a NFB. The FBd sometimes moves up the pitch, but I don't mind if he supports the attacks from time to time, he does that in relatively risk-free situations.